PTI's desperate campaign for "DAWN" poll

[TankMan]

Why you people Avoid the Past and what happened back then????They are good Examples for ESTABLISHING the track record of our Institutions.

I never avoided the past. Read:

According to your source, some rumors were spread in the media, which were denied by the ISPR.
They clarified their stance and refuted the rumors. They did their job. Asif Haroon should have been investigated and tried, yes. But it didn't happen under those times' leadership. Yes, there should be more accountability in the Army. Today's leadership is already working to establish it.

But do you realize that none of what you said in that entire wall of text absolves the MQM of its crimes? None of it. You're trying to undermine the credibility of the Army without actually looking at the evidence they have provided today. There are MQM members involved in serious criminal activity. There were illegal weapons and target killers inside MQM's headquarters.

Nothing you say about the Army or anyone else changes the facts about MQM.

As for the 92 Operation, there was no need for 'Jinnahpur' to justify it. That was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

What track record? Their leadership changed half a dozen times after that! MQM's remained the exact same. And now the MQM is having the same problem, yet again.

Do you people never wonder why exactly does the MQM end up getting 'targeted'? And no, it's not because of their ethnicity. The Army is full of Mohajirs. The Army was led by a Mohajir, Musharraf, for a long time.

The Army has gone through multiple leaderships, so it can't be a personal grudge or personal bias in the leadership.

The MQM hasn't given any reason as to why they think the Army is after them, except for ethnic victimization propaganda.

Therefore, the only logical reason is that the MQM has been involved in activities detrimental to National Security.

Kabhi apne girebaan me bhi jhank liya karo.


The fact that you people simply can not defend MQM's actions and instead resort to attacking other political parties or the institutions is enough to make my point.

 

[Jango]

So two persons hold More credibility then 6 to 7 people around here who actually living in Karachi right now as we Speak.

Who are you trying to kid here?

I can get you 15 people within half an hour with their videos in a PM cursing Altaf Hussain...

Har banda alag hota hai..don't put the "Mohajir" blanket over everyone.

 

[TankMan]

In the end, I would just say, kindly reply to all the points raised in a post rather than just selective replies and getting onto the same old mantra of Jinnahpur. Aaj ki baat karo bhai...today is more important.

Picking on specific points helps in making accurate responses, I apologize if I missed any of the points raised.

As for Jinnahpur, what can we do when certain people insist on beating the same old dead horse? Otherwise, bilkul sahi kaha aap ne, aaj ki baat ziyada zaroori hai.

 

[Secur]

Aaj ki baat karo bhai...today is more important.

Kal bhi tha aur aj bhi hai! Nothing ever truly changes in this country. Case in point: Zardari

As for Jinnahpur, what can we do when certain people insist on beating the same old dead horse? Otherwise, bilkul sahi kaha aap ne, aaj ki baat ziyada zaroori hai.

While unresolved issues of the past form the basis for today's action and inaction, its very wise to forget the past and not ask for any correction of mistakes.

 

[Jango]

Picking on specific points helps in making accurate responses, I apologize if I missed any of the points raised.

As for Jinnahpur, what can we do when certain people insist on beating the same old dead horse? Otherwise, bilkul sahi kaha aap ne, aaj ki baat ziyada zaroori hai.

This wasn't aimed at you...sorry for the confusion.

 

[TankMan]

So two persons hold More credibility then 6 to 7 people around here who actually living in Karachi right now as we Speak.

Start a thread with a poll over here if you want to and stop arguing over pointless numbers. You can bring six to seven people, I know of sixteen to seventeen people who say the exact opposite. You will then say you know sixty to seventy people - either start a poll, or stop arguing over such pointless things.

 

[Gazi]

NA 246 does not equal Karachi, and MQM doesn't equal all Mohajirs.

95 thousand people can love MQM as much as they like, I have no problem with that. My problem is with criminals operating from within MQM. The people didn't vote for those criminals, they voted for the people they wanted to be as their representatives.

Abandon the criminals, and maybe then the MQM stands a chance at being a unifying national party rather than a divisive ethnic party restricted to Karachi.

NA 246 is the best Test Case available for Free and Fair and CONTROLLED Elections in Pakistan so its most relevant in terms of Arrangements it has and Political Maneuverings observed before that Election. No one can dispute the result of NA 246 while everyone can dispute the results of other constituencies in Pakistan.

If they Voted for the people they wanted to Represent thenm then why are they Taken for Granted in this Operation???Why are they being Ridiculed like that by our LEA???They are represent people and disrespecting them is disrespect to those who Elected them and that is how Democracy works. I heard that now FIR are getting registered on Farooq Sattar and other MQM Elected people as well so what should I consider that???

 

[TankMan]

While unresolved issues of the past form the basis for today's action and inaction, its very wise to forget the past and not ask for any correction of mistakes.

Correction of mistakes is already happening. This time we have physical evidence and video footage, not just rumours of maps. And this time the Army is involving and helping strengthen the civilian authorities, while simultaneously working on their own internal accountability.

Sure, there's always room for improvement - but to say that they aren't learning lessons would be wrong.

 

[Gazi]

Start a thread with a poll over here if you want to and stop arguing over pointless numbers. You can bring six to seven people, I know of sixteen to seventeen people who say the exact opposite. You will then say you know sixty to seventy people - either start a poll, or stop arguing over such pointless things.

We were discussing Karachiite in PDF and their POVs regarding MQM and it was you who started trying to make your point on that and I am just replying here. If you find it convenient then do it yourself why asking me for Responding to your Argument only.

Who are you trying to kid here?

I can get you 15 people within half an hour with their videos in a PM cursing Altaf Hussain...

Har banda alag hota hai..don't put the "Mohajir" blanket over everyone.

Read again I am talking about Members who are LIVING in Karachi RIGHT NOW so if you can have 16-17-18-100+ Karachiites in PDF then feel free to Tag them. Lets here it from them as well.

 

[TankMan]

NA 246 is the best Test Case available

No, no it isn't. NA 246 has been in MQM's control for a long time. That is MQM's backyard. It is the center of MQM's political activities. That is where the most MQM supporters are concentrated, that is where their HQ is located and that is where MQM focuses the most.

Not such a good test case.

it was you who started trying to make your point on that and I am just replying here.

No, it wasn't me. Read through posts before pointing fingers. @taimur12 claimed that he knew families from Karachi in the US who supported MQM, and that somehow his view is more 'realistic' than any of us because of it.

I was just replying to him when you jumped in.

that is not they key argument. @TankMan and @Jango considering i actually know families here is US that are from karachi and support mqm. i have a realistic perspective on this issue.

Post number 163.

 

[Patriots]

Two persons on PDF hold just as much, if not more, credibility than some random ''families in the US'' from Karachi as cited by @taimur12

Laugh at him if you want to.


NA 246 does not equal Karachi, and MQM doesn't equal all Mohajirs.

95 thousand people can love MQM as much as they like, I have no problem with that. My problem is with criminals operating from within MQM. The people didn't vote for those criminals, they voted for the people they wanted to be as their representatives.

Abandon the criminals, and maybe then the MQM stands a chance at being a unifying national party rather than a divisive ethnic party restricted to Karachi.

Actually the thing made is that you were quoting 2 persons against random families living in USA ... You just presented one name Haviz who lives in Karachi the other one Waleed lives in Qatar and he just comes on vacations ........
At the same time you neglected 6 to 6 people here in PDF who support MQM ... So if you hold s poll on PDF regarding MQM popularity just among people living in Karachi then I assure you' you will lose .......
So leave PDF and talk about ground realities ... And ground reality is that MQM is much more popular party in Karachi ... Its a biggest stake holder in the city and problem would be solved if govt will take MQM in confidence to eliminate criminals ... And I am sure MQM will do so for the best interest of Karachi ... And will help LEAs to find out criminal elements .......

But trust building is more important ......

 

[Jango]

Read again I am talking about Members who are LIVING in Karachi RIGHT NOW so if you can have 16-17-18-100+ Karachiites in PDF then feel free to Tag them. Lets here it from them as well.

Yup, living in Karachi at this moment. Not on PDF.

Anyways, forget it.

 

[Gazi]

What track record? Their leadership changed half a dozen times after that! MQM's remained the exact same. And now the MQM is having the same problem, yet again.

Do you people never wonder why exactly does the MQM end up getting 'targeted'? And no, it's not because of their ethnicity. The Army is full of Mohajirs. The Army was led by a Mohajir, Musharraf, for a long time.

The Army has gone through multiple leaderships, so it can't be a personal grudge or personal bias in the leadership.

The MQM hasn't given any reason as to why they think the Army is after them, except for ethnic victimization propaganda.

Therefore, the only logical reason is that the MQM has been involved in activities detrimental to National Security.

Kabhi apne girebaan me bhi jhank liya karo.


The fact that you people simply can not defend MQM's actions and instead resort to attacking other political parties or the institutions is enough to make my point.

Change in Leadership doesnt mean change in Capabilities and MINDSET. The people who were serving back then having a huge Beef against MQM might be serving right now as well as senior Officers and trying to play something Similar to the one they played back in 1990s without realizing the CONSEQUENCES of that like in 1990s.

MQM is Targeted because they are not getting INFLUENCED by top brass that easily like Imran and Nawaz are. Another factor is Our top Military Establishment have always been favorable to Conservative Mindset while MQM is Liberal to most extent. Its another reason. Another best reason is that they are not Karachiite Mostly so they get INFLUENCED Easily by the Groups Outside Karachi ACCUSING Blaming MQM for whatever bad things happened in Karachi as they cant Challenge MQM Politically so they use PROPAGANDA instead like Misconceptions of "A bird cant fly in Karachi without MQM's Approvals" which is quite well known a PROPAGANDA as many different Groups Operates in Karachi as well but Blames goes to MQM in everything despite they arent even Involved.

 

[TankMan]

Actually the thing made is that you were quoting 2 persons against random families living in USA ... You just presented one name Haviz who lives in Karachi the other one Waleed lives in Qatar and he just comes on vacations ........
At the same time you neglected 6 to 6 people here in PDF who support MQM ... So if you hold s poll on PDF regarding MQM popularity just among people living in Karachi then I assure you' you will lose .......

I did not ''neglect'' any people on PDF who support MQM. I told him that his view is not more realistic just because he knows families in the US who are supposedly from Karachi.

Go ahead and hold a poll.

So leave PDF and talk about ground realities ... And ground reality is that MQM is much more popular party in Karachi ... Its a biggest stake holder in the city and problem would be solved if govt will take MQM in confidence to eliminate criminals ...

Another ground reality is that MQM is involved in criminal activities and is constantly opposing Law Enforcement agencies.
How is anyone supposed to take MQM in confidence when their responses are like this?

. And I am sure MQM will do so for the best interest of Karachi ... And will help LEAs to find out criminal elements .......

What makes you so sure? Because till now, the only thing we've seen for sure is that Altaf Bhai considers making angry, inflammatory, hateful and inciting speeches and using dirty language against people he doesn't like to be more important than any best interest of Karachi.

What if Altaf Hussain himself is involved with these criminal elements? Are you still sure he will co operate?

 

[Patriots]

No, no it isn't. NA 246 has been in MQM's control for a long time. That is MQM's backyard. It is the center of MQM's political activities. That is where the most MQM supporters are concentrated, that is where their HQ is located and that is where MQM focuses the most.

Not such a good test case.

Actually you don't know ... MQM concentrates in each n every constituency where they win .........
FYI ... Right after general elections MQM won by-elections within such control environment that Army was inside and outside of polling booth ... It held on 6 to 7 seats in different parts of Karachi ... But people like you were stayed remain in denial ... So no wonder if you don't consider to NA-246 as test case .......

 

[TankMan]

Change in Leadership doesnt mean change in Capabilities and MINDSET.

A change in leadership can mean a change in mindset. It quite often does.

The people who were serving back then having a huge Beef against MQM might be serving right now as well as senior Officers and trying to play something Similar to the one they played back in 1990s without realizing the CONSEQUENCES of that like in 1990s.

Absolutely nonsensical reason. The people who were involved 1992 would have mostly retired by now. Why is it that everyone ends up having ''a huge beef'' with MQM. You always mention the ''beef'' but never mention why. Maybe it's because the only reason the military officers dislike MQM is because of its criminal activities.

MQM is Targeted because they are not getting INFLUENCED by top brass that easily like Imran and Nawaz are.

Right. So Imran and Nawaz are both perfect little puppies of the top brass - but wait a minute. Wasn't MQM recently registering FIRs against Imran Khan for speaking against the top brass? How can Imran Khan be both against and with the military at the same time?

Another factor is Our top Military Establishment have always been favorable to Conservative Mindset while MQM is Liberal to most extent. Its another reason.

Absolutely no such reason exists. 'Liberal-Conservative' politics never work in Pakistan, it's always a lot more complicated than that. And I fail to see how a party whose leader openly threatens to murder journalists and constantly speaks against media freedom is 'liberal'.

The Army couldn't care less about who's liberal and who's conservative.

Another best reason is that they are not Karachiite MostlyINFLUENCED Easily by the Groups Outside Karachi ACCUSING Blaming MQM for whatever bad things happened in Karachi as they cant Challenge MQM Politically so they use PROPAGANDA instead like Misconceptions of "A bird cant fly in Karachi without MQM's Approvals" which is quite well known a PROPAGANDA

If you mean it's an ethnic bias, I've already explained how that is not likely at all. If you're saying they don't know about the situation in Karachi, there's this thing called intelligence gathering. They know exactly what goes on. Not to mention that most of the soldiers and officers involved in the Karachi operation are actually posted inside Karachi and therefore they live there. There's no way those soldiers and officers can't see what's going on around them to somehow get 'influenced' by groups from outside Karachi.

many different Groups Operates in Karachi as well

You mean groups like the PAC which was raided three hundred and ninety six times last year alone? Or like the Sunni Tehreek whose headquarters was raided twice recently. Or maybe you're referring to all the Lyari gangsters that keep getting killed and arrested.

But yes, you are right, many groups do operate in Karachi - and the Rangers and Law Enforcement know that and are targeting them.

but Blames goes to MQM in everything despite they arent even Involved.

Do you mean to say that the MQM wasn't even involved in keeping weapons and target killers inside its own HQ?

So no wonder if you don't consider to NA-246 as test case .......

Azizabad has historically been the center of MQM's activities. Do you deny that? If not, how can it be a good test case?

It held on 6 to 7 seats in different parts of Karachi ... But people like you were stayed remain in denial

I never denied that MQM had seats in Karachi.