PTI's Azadi March 14th August 2014 l Updates and debate.

[La ResistanceZ]

 

[Dodo Bobo]

PTI Staging Sit-ins in Teen Talwar Karachi & Defence Lahore

Lol even Policeman are joining in now!

Jhab takh hamare kaptan nai kahe gha nai uthe ghe. Ye kaptan huwa ya Captain America? Remdind of scene in latesr captain america movie lol captain orders

 

[Edevelop]

 

[La ResistanceZ]

 

[La ResistanceZ]

 

[Edevelop]

Imran Khan couldn’t fulfill the promises made to his workers


ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) chairman Imran Khan failed to honour repeated promises made to his workers of eating and living with them all through the Azadi March and much to their disappointment spent the night at his Bani Gala home following his address.


This was much to the disappointment of PTI workers and supporters who faced the torrential rain under the open sky without their chairman.


PTI workers were in shock when they were deserted by Imran Khan who had made repeated promises that he would eat with them, sleep on the roads with them and would not leave them under any circumstances.


Perhaps the heavy rain and the fatigues of long travel proved too much for Imran Khan, who after his emotion charged address on Shahrah-e-Kashmir got into his car and left for his residence at Bani Gala to sleep and rest for the night, while the workers passed sleepless night in utter frustration and with the feeling of being defrauded.


Imran Khan couldn’t fulfill the promises made to his workers - thenews.com.pk

 

[Chak Bamu]

first of all no where did i support IK's demand of PM's resignation so i wont comment on any of IK related stuff. My argument is that such chaotic atmosphere is a results of govt's own insensitivity to people's demands. And also that the argument of democracy for the sake of democracy is dubious. The question of why we keep shooting our feet should be targeted towards the rulers not the public. Why is it that the people keep discarding the system after every 10 years? is it because they are less concerned about their welfare compared to the educated believers in democracy?

surely not. Its not that you and I have solved the puzzle while the majority of Pakistan is still oblivious to this answer. So if majority of Pakistan is equally concerned about their welfare as are you and I then why this shooting the feet? Because the system fails to deliver. From dictatorship to monarchic democracy prevailing in our country, the result is the same: concentration of power in the hands of the few. This has never been the dominant case with any of today's modern democracies. Why did such countries not toss themselves between kingship and democracy? because the whole idea of democracy was to take the power away from the kings and distribute it amongst the people even at their very nascent stages - hence the people's loyalty towards the democratic system and consequently the stability.

Unfortunately the minority which really sees the existing democracy as a solution to our problem is insulated from the exposure to the very system in their daily life. The majority on the other hand faces the heat everyday and therefore has little loyalty towards these notions which are exploited to death by the family fiefdoms ruling them.

They very time you are asking for before the democracy starts delivering is an extremely sparse commodity for the majority we are talking about here. They'll keep shooting the feel until a system comes and delivers them from these chains.

A number of assumptions here I see.

1. Its not so much that the system fails to deliver as its that people and institutions fail in patience.

2. Our obligations to families and individual institutions matter more to us than the rights and interests of Pakistan.

3. Nobody lives in a vacuum. The problems of governance have an effect on us all.

4. Your observation about democracy somehow being applied in perfection while transitioning between absolute power (kingship) to people power fails when one looks at Latin America. All those countries struggled with dictatorships and army rule. Not one of them is a dictatorship now. They went through painful transition, and we would be deluding ourselves if we think that it should not be painful for us. We are not special in anyway that laws of social and political evolution should not apply to us. There is absolutely no substitute to determined effort to make it work.

NS of yester-years was an immature dramabaz and hungama politician. What happened? He is still the same person with the same failings, but seems to have learned some lessons about hungama-bazi and instability of confrontation. Do notice the glacial calm with which he has played his hand in this crisis. Had he not matured, we would have seen blood on the streets and a military wrap-up.

BB and NS had both learned that their mutual enmity brought so much instability that petty politicians black-mailed them both. That is why they agreed on constitutional amendments that limited the ability of MNAs and MPAs to blackmail leaders. They decided not to sacrifice system to open the door to army rule.

IK does not realize all this. He has not experienced any of it. He knows, but willfully ignores. This is what we have seen so far in this whole drama.

I have absolutely no problem with dynastic rule, as long as we are able to go through at least 2-3 more regular election cycles. Once a semblance of democratic institutional framework is established, we can then take a stand. The system would be stable enough and provide enough choices for us to go through another shake-up and reforms.

First things first! We need to establish whether we should resign ourselves to an unstable mix-up and successive cycles of inept civilian rule followed by martial law. If this fills you with abhorrence, like it fills me, then you have to agree to give an imperfect democracy a chance and put aside the efficiency argument and instead back the legitimacy argument. Crying about efficiency (corruption, merit, development) to sacrifice legitimacy is the direct route to Martial Law. And this always comes back to bite us in the rear.

We've lost half the country because our parents and grand parents did not understand the value of 1956 constitution. Pakistan broke the day that constitution was abrogated. The efficiency gains made until 1971 did not save us from the inevitable collapse. With 1973 constitution, so far it is a similar story. Until and unless we back the legitimacy or our constitution, efficiency gains will remain temporary and ephemeral.

Does anyone care what people in Baluchistan, Sindh, Southern Punjab, and Gilgit are thinking about a largely Punjabi & Pashtun drama in Islamabad? Would they not resent all this? Does GT Rd get to decide fate of Paksitan's politics? With all this hungama, we are already alienating the South and the North. The very same thing happened in 1965 too. Our Bengali brothers felt cheated by decision makers who resided in West Pakistan and acted as West Pakistanis, rather than United Pakistanis.

I can not be any more clear about this. I have given examples, laid out arguments, and referenced History. If still someone does NOT 'get' it, what can one do?

 

[La ResistanceZ]

 

[Devil Soul]

Arshad Sharif ‏@arsched 19m
@ImranKhanPTI might be left alone in the ring as opportunists in #PTI planning to ditch him. #AzadiMarchPTI #PTIAzadiMarch

 

[batmannow]

A number of assumptions here I see.

1. Its not so much that the system fails to deliver as its that people and institutions fail in patience.

2. Our obligations to families and individual institutions matter more to us than the rights and interests of Pakistan.

3. Nobody lives in a vacuum. The problems of governance have an effect on us all.

4. Your observation about democracy somehow being applied in perfection while transitioning between absolute power (kingship) to people power fails when one looks at Latin America. All those countries struggled with dictatorships and army rule. Not one of them is a dictatorship now. They went through painful transition, and we would be deluding ourselves if we think that it should not be painful for us. We are not special in anyway that laws of social and political evolution should not apply to us. There is absolutely no substitute to determined effort to make it work.

NS of yester-years was an immature dramabaz and hungama politician. What happened? He is still the same person with the same failings, but seems to have learned some lessons about hungama-bazi and instability of confrontation. Do notice the glacial calm with which he has played his hand in this crisis. Had he not matured, we would have seen blood on the streets and a military wrap-up.

BB and NS had both learned that their mutual enmity brought so much instability that petty politicians black-mailed them both. That is why they agreed on constitutional amendments that limited the ability of MNAs and MPAs to blackmail leaders. They decided not to sacrifice system to open the door to army rule.

IK does not realize all this. He has not experienced any of it. He knows, but willfully ignores. This is what we have seen so far in this whole drama.

I have absolutely no problem with dynastic rule, as long as we are able to go through at least 2-3 more regular election cycles. Once a semblance of democratic institutional framework is established, we can then take a stand. The system would be stable enough and provide enough choices for us to go through another shake-up and reforms.

First things first! We need to establish whether we should resign ourselves to an unstable mix-up and successive cycles of inept civilian rule followed by martial law. If this fills you with abhorrence, like it fills me, then you have to agree to give an imperfect democracy a chance and put aside the efficiency argument and instead back the legitimacy argument. Crying about efficiency (corruption, merit, development) to sacrifice legitimacy is the direct route to Martial Law. And this always comes back to bite us in the rear.

We've lost half the country because our parents and grand parents did not understand the value of 1956 constitution. Pakistan broke the day that constitution was abrogated. The efficiency gains made until 1971 did not save us from the inevitable collapse. With 1973 constitution, so far it is a similar story. Until and unless we back the legitimacy or our constitution, efficiency gains will remain temporary and ephemeral.

Does anyone care what people in Baluchistan, Sindh, Southern Punjab, and Gilgit are thinking about a largely Punjabi & Pashtun drama in Islamabad? Would they not resent all this? Does GT Rd get to decide fate of Paksitan's politics? With all this hungama, we are already alienating the South and the North. The very same thing happened in 1965 too. Our Bengali brothers felt cheated by decision makers who resided in West Pakistan and acted as West Pakistanis, rather than United Pakistanis.

I can not be any more clear about this. I have given examples, laid out arguments, and referenced History. If still someone does NOT 'get' it, what can one do?

Keep singing the old noora song, for the sake of damo-crazy, rulling over pakistan, with its shamefully fake & bloody mandate?

Arshad Sharif ‏@arsched 19m
@ImranKhanPTI might be left alone in the ring as opportunists in #PTI planning to ditch him. #AzadiMarchPTI #PTIAzadiMarch

Fake fear factors, that's why he is the leader, & they are the salaried anchors?

 

[Devil Soul]

Fake fear factors, that's why he is the leader, & they are the salaried anchors?

Arshad have been tweeting pro Imran & pro PTI tweets.. ever since this dharna march etc....

 

[Chak Bamu]

Keep singing the old noora song, for the sake of damo-crazy, rulling over pakistan, with its shamefully fake & bloody mandate?

ROFL. Admit it, you did not even read it and shot a fazool comment.

I wish I could put you back on my ignore list.

 

[Areesh]

So with dialogue start, I think this drama is near to its end. I hope it ends as soon as possible. Enough with all the confusion and the useless political BS.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Arshad have been tweeting pro Imran & pro PTI tweets.. ever since this dharna march etc....

Very right. He was one of those who were lusting for blood in the Geo affair, instead of asking about who shot up Hamid Mir.

 

[La ResistanceZ]

Quite funny