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PTI's Azadi March 14th August 2014 l Updates and debate.

@Verve

What i meant is that if this fascist system is scrapped and replaced with a better one, the justice to those victims would automatically be delievered.

As per my study of history, nations collapse, when they fail to deliver justice to their own people.

I support reforms because the massacre in model town is an indication that we as a nation might be headed into a hell hole. Its not just about those 14 butchered on the pavement in Lahore, but those too who yet again will be slain by this system in the future, with no hope of justice ever being delievered.

I'm in total agreement with you.

Iceland rewrote their constitution because the system was not delivering. And it all started in 2008 by one man with a loud speaker in hand. PM resigned, Parliament dissolved, best of 1500 non-political (to be stressed here) minds gathered and 30 or so selected to rewrite the constitution. All this in a far better established democracy than this, where justice for all is a myth.
 
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@Chak Bamu

I'm from the same town Dr Qadri, ASWJ, SSP, LEJ, HJA originate from.

I will testify in the afterlife that if one man has NEVER caused killing, murder and mayhem in Jhang or Pakistan, its Dr. Qadri.

Being close to the religious circles through social connections, i can also state that Dr Qadri will NEVER go violent. He defeats people with reason and argument, rather than 7.62x51mm rounds, like these Islamofascist terrorists do.

You and i, differ on the extent of rigging. I've seen it myself, which formulates my opinion. I have spoken to ROs and NADRA officials from my own social net who have stated that it wasn't only rigged but staged, as the ballot boxes were simply replaced by boxed stuffed in advanced and the staff was threatened.

Two session judges in Jhang were replaced by NS govt after their candidate somehow wracked up an 8000 vote lead (bless the round figures) in the bi election, and the opposition candidate lodged a complaint. Miraclously, the case has never been heard so far!

Democracy doesn't = Elections
Democracy = Transparency and sanctity of the process.
 
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@Proudpakistaniguy

1: I'm not pro Imran or any other politician. I'm pro Pakistan and pro reforms, therefore i support those who, i think are leading that cause at this point in our history.

2: If you start to lead for reforms, i'll support you too.

3: There is no need for punishing those who killed those 14 people.

4: There is every need to scrap and replace the 'SYSTEM' which makes such a massacre possible.
Nice to know that you are Pro-Pakistani and don't keep any bias and prejudice towards any political party and leaders. Our definition of Pro Pakistani might differ because i also call myself pro Pakistani but i am against the calls of civil disobedience, i am against political unrest, anarchy and chaos in country which damage economy and give bad reputation to Pakistan . I also think its unfair to partially accept the election. If ECP was corrupt then all election should be considered invalid. I cry about rigging where i lost the election and dont give up my mandate in kpk where i won it seem unfair call to me. Imran is on road with his supporters from last ten days. What reforms he or his march partner qadri brought in constitution of Pakistan? You cannot bring reform by gathering your supporters on road and threatening/blackmailing government, police, media and others institutions..What is the political authority of qadri to blackmail government ?
 
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@Chak Bamu,

Do you remember few days back when you told me that only lawyers can opine about corruption @ judiciary........ well, I wasn't, totally open about it that day........... those views weren't entirely my own, but were consistent views of two high court judges, one chief justice and 6 senior supreme court lawyers (from criminal to civil).......... I hail from a huge family, who has seen it's fair share of Pakistan's turbulent history, from it's very beginning....... and many many many of them are actively involved in every sphere of Pakistan's social, political and what not fabric today..............

Regarding mega scale rigging in 2013, let's not even go there................. status quo is no longer an option...............



@Chak Bamu

I'm from the same town Dr Qadri, ASWJ, SSP, LEJ, HJA originate from.

I will testify in the afterlife that if one man has NEVER caused killing, murder and mayhem in Jhang or Pakistan, its Dr. Qadri.

Being close to the religious circles through social connections, i can also state that Dr Qadri will NEVER go violent. He defeats people with reason and argument, rather than 7.62x51mm rounds, like these Islamofascist terrorists do.

You and i, differ on the extent of rigging. I've seen it myself, which formulates my opinion. I have spoken to ROs and NADRA officials from my own social net who have stated that it wasn't only rigged but staged, as the ballot boxes were simply replaced by boxed stuffed in advanced and the staff was threatened.

Two session judges in Jhang were replaced by NS govt after their candidate somehow wracked up an 8000 vote lead (bless the round figures) in the bi election, and the opposition candidate lodged a complaint. Miraclously, the case has never been heard so far!

Democracy doesn't = Elections
Democracy = Transparency and sanctity of the process.
 
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Lahore



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Lahore

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@Verve

An MP in Australia was fired for paying taxi fares on his official credit card.

Iceland is an evolved democracy with a 100%, literacy rate, with a population enough to fill Sialkot district.

Things in Pakistan have gotten way beyond activist lead reform. For example, name me just one convicted terrorist getting punished even after 60,000 Pakistanis are dead?

What we need is structural reforms and complete revampment of elctoral and judicial nizaam.

This cant be done by a leadership which itself is a product of this nizaam as well as, is very much implicit in murder and in bed with the terrorist organizations, just like they can't bring those $200 billion back from the Swiss banks, because who took them there anyway?
 
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The Butt Nation will rise up against PTI & IK if this continues on for any longer ! :pissed:
Butt saab jaan deo.

U guys go out to protest ik promises keemay walay naan to all. Protesters drop apology demand go home happy.
 
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@Chak Bamu

I'm from the same town Dr Qadri, ASWJ, SSP, LEJ, HJA originate from.

I will testify in the afterlife that if one man has NEVER caused killing, murder and mayhem in Jhang or Pakistan, its Dr. Qadri.

Being close to the religious circles through social connections, i can also state that Dr Qadri will NEVER go violent. He defeats people with reason and argument, rather than 7.62x51mm rounds, like these Islamofascist terrorists do.

You and i, differ on the extent of rigging. I've seen it myself, which formulates my opinion. I have spoken to ROs and NADRA officials from my own social net who have stated that it wasn't only rigged but staged, as the ballot boxes were simply replaced by boxed stuffed in advanced and the staff was threatened.

Two session judges in Jhang were replaced by NS govt after their candidate somehow wracked up an 8000 vote lead (bless the round figures) in the bi election, and the opposition candidate lodged a complaint. Miraclously, the case has never been heard so far!

Democracy doesn't = Elections
Democracy = Transparency and sanctity of the process.

I don't doubt Dr Qadri's aims, morality, his will. What I had a problem with from the beginning was the political side of things, which I don't subscribe too. If you know TuQ's inner circle and know about the man, you will know that he was warned by someone who he himself looked for guidance, his own murshid had warned him not to enter politics. I personally feel that he shouldn't have.

Also I'm more of a secular guy, my individual is religious, but I want society around me to be secular. Now TuQ for sure promotes secular values within the Islamic ideal, he for sure is 100 times more liberal and level headed than other clergy and religiously motivated individuals in the country. However what I don't like seeing is how Minhaj Ul Qur'an and his religious influence is used for his politics. It turns our voters, our pro-democratic hordes in to zombies with no minds of their own. No party or leader have I seen who takes oaths from protesters, that I find disturbing and very dangerous. Also model town and what happened after are another story all together.
ov
And as for rigging, terrible and crippling corruption, no man in Pakistan can deny the existence of this. My difference in opinion is based solely on the fact that I don't believe in top down politics and purification unless in special circumstances and even then the chances of that top down stuff even working is slim. The most tried and proven method of making a nation stand on it's two feet isn't by putting on stilts and seeing how long they can keep them up, it's to teach the nation how stand on their own feet by themselves, starting from the top down.

Pakistanis have this very bad misconception that their salvation lies in the hope that there will be some sort of God given leader who will fix the world around them, two things wrong with that, God won't help them who don't help themselves and it's asking a lot to fix the world around you when you yourself are rotten to the core and in need of help. Pakistanis clearly gave a very valid mandate to the PMLN government, even if rigging is considered, there's quite a margin there for the big parties to fall back on.

Now I personally feel, big reforms need to be pressed and made before we go looking for re-elections or trying to topple governments. TuQ doesn't have that much support either, even if he is our saviour, if the vast majority of Pakistanis do not support him, his actions are not warranted, same goes for Imran Khan, if so many PTI supporters objected, and if so few people support action like this, then why should be the case that for better or for worse, these people should be allowed to force and decide the fate of an entire nation. The very thought itself is undemocratic.

Here's my wishlist for real reform, Pakistan needs to understand that the way democracy works is; Majority rules, minorities protected and heard. That goes for anything, religion, caste/creed, even political views and wealth. The individuals are important but not more important than society, however, at the cost of many things, the individual is granted civil liberties. Equality before the law, vote and political worth independent of wealth, my vote counts for the same as a billionaire's vote.
Implementation of inalienable rights. The necessity of the state and the state's bare apparatus to be independent of influence, secularism, free of any religious or moral inclination, free from holding to or preferring any political ideology or school of thought, same goes for economic school of thought. A clear definition of individual freedom, a long established norm in the West where my freedom ends where yours starts, whereas in Pakistan, anything you do is my business and anyone else's.
Absolute freedom can't exist, that's anarchy, the people and the freedom's they're granted with decide what happens.
Do the above and all your top down issues are gone.

Pakistanis always prefer learning the hard way and this is the most effective way. And when they don't learn from the hard way, looking for the free and painless way out is usually the worst option, it completely makes all the pain itself go in vain, with nothing gained but the luxury of postponing what needs to be done for another day. It's a really cold view of the world, but it's the truth.
 
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The "COUPE" you, your leader and the 20K clowns on the street are waiting for....ain't coming. The direction of the wind is entirely different compared to the direction of the little Cesna the IK is flying.
Plus, the constitution will not be "gone", every party agrees with it besides the 20K clowns dancing on the street so that's what people will reinstate if there was to be a coupe. But when the constitution gets reinstated......another COAS will then be tried for TREASON. I don't think your military is exactly ready for it. I've heard from a few birdies
All of your Gilbreish shows, that you don't have enough knowledge about pakistani political history, in which most of these parties are the products of dictator ships?
Whenever any coupe has happened in pakistan , certain people's would be the part of it, with some tag on Thier names ?
So basicly no, one will be up against it, till they get support from USA ?
Like what they did last time , against musharaf fueling the lawyers movement, then supporting the PPP, & finally bringing noora king into power ?
Not, this time it wouldn't be like , that constitution of Pakistan is an outdated doccuments used by croupts to, loot the national wealth, & to save it in USA or UK, buying properties, & cash in Swiss accounts ?
This time , all will be punished!

Aeronaut, I am most certainly, most definitely, NOT making Ludhianavi out to be a reasonable person. Do not put words of your choice in my mouth. You should know better than to do that.

I mentioned his tweets to make a point which you have not addressed. You instead have chosen to shoot the messenger in an indirect way.

@WebMaster, @Oscar , @Emmie , @fulcrum
Feul ing the fire , you do best? Right?
Now trying hard to, put sectarian terrorists against the innocent people's , who are staging Thier peace full protest against the most croupt & with a fake mandate the killers govt of noora sharif, sure for you its the ultimate Damocrazy?
 
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@Chak Bamu

I'm from the same town Dr Qadri, ASWJ, SSP, LEJ, HJA originate from.

I will testify in the afterlife that if one man has NEVER caused killing, murder and mayhem in Jhang or Pakistan, its Dr. Qadri.

Being close to the religious circles through social connections, i can also state that Dr Qadri will NEVER go violent. He defeats people with reason and argument, rather than 7.62x51mm rounds, like these Islamofascist terrorists do.

You and i, differ on the extent of rigging. I've seen it myself, which formulates my opinion. I have spoken to ROs and NADRA officials from my own social net who have stated that it wasn't only rigged but staged, as the ballot boxes were simply replaced by boxed stuffed in advanced and the staff was threatened.

Two session judges in Jhang were replaced by NS govt after their candidate somehow wracked up an 8000 vote lead (bless the round figures) in the bi election, and the opposition candidate lodged a complaint. Miraclously, the case has never been heard so far!

Democracy doesn't = Elections
Democracy = Transparency and sanctity of the process.
All you just forgot is, it's about DAMOCRAZY in pakistan, it's not democracy?
It will never be, till last of the croupters would be in power?
 
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@Chak Bamu

I'm from the same town Dr Qadri, ASWJ, SSP, LEJ, HJA originate from.

I will testify in the afterlife that if one man has NEVER caused killing, murder and mayhem in Jhang or Pakistan, its Dr. Qadri.

Being close to the religious circles through social connections, i can also state that Dr Qadri will NEVER go violent. He defeats people with reason and argument, rather than 7.62x51mm rounds, like these Islamofascist terrorists do.

You and i, differ on the extent of rigging. I've seen it myself, which formulates my opinion. I have spoken to ROs and NADRA officials from my own social net who have stated that it wasn't only rigged but staged, as the ballot boxes were simply replaced by boxed stuffed in advanced and the staff was threatened.

Two session judges in Jhang were replaced by NS govt after their candidate somehow wracked up an 8000 vote lead (bless the round figures) in the bi election, and the opposition candidate lodged a complaint. Miraclously, the case has never been heard so far!

Democracy doesn't = Elections
Democracy = Transparency and sanctity of the process.

Bhai jaan Tuqa is the same guy who gave order to his workers to confront police and get killed. He is no different then religious thug party types. This march has failed but imagine if it succeded? Tomorrow 100.000 (5 times more then PTI) FATA taliban can come to Islamabad and demand their own gov. Ofcourse PTI is not that different from real Taliban.

We have to remember same PTI was and is against military operation which is huge success. Its clear Pak does not need PTI to be anywhere near parliment in big numbers.
 
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