PTI's Azadi March 14th August 2014 l Updates and debate.

[Chak Bamu]

Is there any proof of these allegations? I don't think so.

The stains you have talked about are rather norms in Pakistani society. Name me one person who is without them? At any rate, what IK is doing or trying to do, I don't agree with that. I don't see any good coming out from his actions.

During the rise of PTI 3 years ago, there were reports by journalists that DG ISI, Shuja Pasha was promoting PTI verbally - and as a serving official of PA he could not have done so. It is understandable that he would also use ISI influence for this purpose if he is careless and / or driven enough to explain to journalists why he supported PTI. You can look for links if you wish. This much is well-known.

I supporter IK and PTI even though I knew this. Because I genuinely believed that IK is a better choice. His antics over the last couple of weeks have finally convinced me to forget about him. If he can not beat his political opponents fairly and squarely in elections, he should just accept the results and move on by showing better governance in KPK and by reorganizing PTI.

I have not totally given up on him. If he learns from his mistakes, I would support him on merit. If not, he can follow AM(R) Asghar Khan to obscurity.

 

[Zarvan]

During the rise of PTI 3 years ago, there were reports by journalists that DG ISI, Shuja Pasha was promoting PTI verbally - and as a serving official of PA he could not have done so. It is understandable that he would also use ISI influence for this purpose if he is careless and / or driven enough to explain to journalists why he supported PTI. You can look for links if you wish. This much is well-known.

I supporter IK and PTI even though I knew this. Because I genuinely believed that IK is a better choice. His antics over the last couple of weeks have finally convinced me to forget about him. If he can not beat his political opponents fairly and squarely in elections, he should just accept the results and move on by showing better governance in KPK and by reorganizing PTI.

I have not totally given up on him. If he learns from his mistakes, I would support him on merit. If not, he can follow AM(R) Asghar Khan to obscurity.

Sorry Sir he can't accept the results no help was given by Pasha if Imran accepts this fraud now he would have to accept it everytime

 

[syedali73]

During the rise of PTI 3 years ago, there were reports by journalists that DG ISI, Shuja Pasha was promoting PTI verbally - and as a serving official of PA he could not have done so. It is understandable that he would also use ISI influence for this purpose if he is careless and / or driven enough to explain to journalists why he supported PTI. You can look for links if you wish. This much is well-known.

I supporter IK and PTI even though I knew this. Because I genuinely believed that IK is a better choice. His antics over the last couple of weeks have finally convinced me to forget about him. If he can not beat his political opponents fairly and squarely in elections, he should just accept the results and move on by showing better governance in KPK and by reorganizing PTI.

I have not totally given up on him. If he learns from his mistakes, I would support him on merit. If not, he can follow AM(R) Asghar Khan to obscurity.

Chak, Army officers are also human beings, and they are as much the part of our society as are you or me. To the best of my knowledge, Army officers are allowed to cast their votes in the elections. What you think my friend, would I cast my vote to someone without considering merits? Would it be abnormal for me (or an Army officer for that matter) to get into a chat with friends, family members, or relatives about different candidates? Among the lot, Imran was (and still is) a cleaner candidate and if Pasha (or other serving PA officers) had a positive opinion about him, and shared it among themselves, what is wrong about it? I don't cast vote but if I were to, I will give my vote to Imran only because he has more to his credit (Cancer Hospital, University) than any other Pakistani politician. He is a person who has given something to this nation whereas others have only taken.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Sorry Sir he can't accept the results no help was given by Pasha if Imran accepts this fraud now he would have to accept it everytime

I might be totally wasting my time here, but here is my reply:

1. How can you say that no help was given, even though it was common knowledge that Pasha whole-heartedly supported PTI?
2. How can you say that this election was fraud? Are you capable of separating fact from fiction? If you are going to repeat PTI propaganda, then spare me. There are plenty others who have been doing it. I do not buy it.
3. He had no problem accepting results before. Why is he having problems now? If he looses again, he would have to accept it. Excuses go only up to some point.
4. You are the sort who think of Democracy as kufr. Why do you care?
5. Unless you come up with some concrete and cogent argument, we can not continue this conversation. Spare me your statements.

Chak, Army officers are also human beings, and they are as much the part of our society as are you or me. To the best of my knowledge, Army officers are allowed to cast their votes in the elections. What you think my friend, would I cast my vote to someone without considering merits? Would it be abnormal for me (or an Army officer for that matter) to get into a chat with friends, family members, or relatives about different candidates? Among the lot, Imran was (and still is) a cleaner candidate and if Pasha (or other serving PA officers) had a positive opinion about him, and shared it among themselves, what is wrong about it? I don't cast vote but if I were to, I will give my vote to Imran only because he has more to his credit (Cancer Hospital, University) than any other Pakistani politician. He is a person who has given something to this nation whereas others have only taken.

Sir, I understand what you are saying. But government employees just can not go on and support political parties like that. If you look at evidence in context you would understand my POV.

As far as I can see, and its not just me but many many people, the basic problem is the question about who gets to govern this country? Constitutionally it has to be politicians and no one else. Elections results form the basis of government. OTOH there are plenty of those who think that it is Army's right to rule.

This dialectic has caused much trouble in Pakistan and continues to cause trouble.

I am no more interested in efficiency-based arguments about corruption, growth, economy, etc... None of that works until we make a fundamental decision about Army's role in politics. It is a strategic concern, not a tactical efficiency-related one.

I hope you read my thread about Bangkok scenario. If you were to spend a couple of hours studying Thailand's politics you would understand what is wrong with Pakistani politics also. There Generals do not allow a popular politician to continue to rule even when he wins elections. There too are parties which rent their services like PML-Q, and there are demagogues like Shk Rasheed who are Establishment puppies.

I do not wish to belabor the point. But I just think you should approach my POV with an open mind. Thanks.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Imran comes with less baggage, any sane person knows that. Just only this reason can give nightmares to some people in power.

My take on this whole situation since Elections. Imran was gonna win around 70 NA seats, However PMLN messed it up (Ganja didnt want to share any power). We can also see that after elections, the Ganjas and Family are incharge of 180 - 200 Million people.

Now democracy does not work that way. Ideal situation would have been after elections these 2 parties coming together and leading Pakistan. However Ganja had other plans, he also tried to create hurdles for Imran in KPK.

Ganja Brought it on himself. @Chak Bamu

You have a right to express yourself sir. I have a right to disagree. Let us continue using our rights.

 

[Zarvan]

I might be totally wasting my time here, but here is my reply:

1. How can you say that no help was given, even though it was common knowledge that Pasha whole-heartedly supported PTI?
2. How can you say that this election was fraud? Are you capable of separating fact from fiction? If you are going to repeat PTI propaganda, then spare me. There are plenty others who have been doing it. I do not buy it.
3. He had no problem accepting results before. Why is he having problems now? If he looses again, he would have to accept it. Excuses go only up to some point.
4. You are the sort who think of Democracy as kufr. Why do you care?
5. Unless you come up with some concrete and cogent argument, we can not continue this conversation. Spare me your statements.



Sir, I understand what you are saying. But government employees just can not go on and support political parties like that. If you look at evidence in context you would understand my POV.

As far as I can see, and its not just me but many many people, the basic problem is the question about who gets to govern this country? Constitutionally it has to be politicians and no one else. Elections results form the basis of government. OTOH there are plenty of those who think that it is Army's right to rule.

This dialectic has caused much trouble in Pakistan and continues to cause trouble.

I am no more interested in efficiency-based arguments about corruption, growth, economy, etc... None of that works until we make a fundamental decision about Army's role in politics. It is a strategic concern, not a tactical efficiency-related one.

I hope you read my thread about Bangkok scenario. If you were to spend a couple of hours studying Thailand's politics you would understand what is wrong with Pakistani politics also. There Generals do not allow a popular politician to continue to rule even when he wins elections. There too are parties which rent their services like PML-Q, and there are demagogues like Shk Rasheed who are Establishment puppies.

I do not wish to belabor the point. But I just think you should approach my POV with an open mind. Thanks.

Yes common knowledge seriously I didn't expected this funny from you this lie was told by PML N only even others party even rejected this and I know from inside no Pasha help was there he said he is accepting election but not fraud he asked for inquiry but nothing was done if government would had accepted 4 seat demand Imran would have called for election reform like machine for next elections and third if elections would be fare whole world will knows in some seats where they have rechecked masive frauds from votes more than registered to votes without stamps counted and many more and yes I don't support idiot system but still within this system I can point out problems and also who I consider better

 

[Multani]

I
4. You are the sort who think of Democracy as kufr. Why do you care?
.

I believe the pressing point of the moment is corruption. Someone has to stand against corruption in Pakistan. Its endemic to the very essence of th country now. Too much. Pakistan is entering a global world and our neighbours have progressed in removing it. Could IK be the one to do it, I don't know. But whoever it is, this must be the rallying point. Knowing Pakistanis, it is probably not an exaggeration to say that most of our countrymen and countrywomen know that there has never been a fair election in this country, and the fact that most politicians are corrupt. This is true because of dominating feudals in much of the provinces.

 

[syedali73]

As far as I can see, and its not just me but many many people, the basic problem is the question about who gets to govern this country? Constitutionally it has to be politicians and no one else. Elections results form the basis of government. OTOH there are plenty of those who think that it is Army's right to rule.

This dialectic has caused much trouble in Pakistan and continues to cause trouble.

In an ideal world, Army has no right to govern, plain and simple. However, are you prepared to let your homeland ruled by tried-and-tested seasoned thieves and robbers in the name of constitution and democracy and without any check? I hate to say but what holds the priority here? constitution and democracy or the country? Chak, you take out Army from the picture and my friend, next morning you'll wake up in a sold-out country.

My heart is bleeding with what has happened to me yesterday. Normally I do not like to share personal things but only to make the point here.

Yesterday I was in a meeting with my boss. She wanted to introduce to me her recently hired post-Doc. The post-Doc informed me that she did her PhD from University of Sydney. I replied to her that I am aware of UoS for my father graduated from University of New South Wales, which is located nearby. My boss turned towards me and said "O' your father graduated from UNSW? I never thought of it for you are from Pakistan!".

Chak, I wanted to say but could not that what the hell you mean by that? That my father's generation was illiterate? That Pakistanis don't acquire higher education? This is how we are viewed and it is only because of Pakistani 'badmaashia' who has brought Pakistan to this low in the eyes of international community. It was the same Pakistan whose economy was better than all the countries in South Asia, whose economical plans were followed by South Korea, and in whose Universities and Medical colleges, students from Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Singapore and many other South Asian countries used to come to study. Just 15 years ago, Pakistan was a desirable place for living, affordable, and safe. Look what has happened to it now? and who is responsible for that?

I cant express my hate for Pakistani badmaashia, and therefore I believe that Army has to be there to keep a check on this badmaashia. They have almost destroyed my country when the Army was there, if it was not there, I cant even imagine what this badmaashia would have done to this country.

 

[Chak Bamu]

I believe the pressing point of the moment is corruption. Someone has to stand against corruption in Pakistan. Its endemic to the very essence of th country now. Too much. We are entering a global world and our neighbours are progressed in removing it. Could IK be the one to do it, I don't know. But whoever it is, this must be the rallying point. Knowing Pakistanis, it is probably not an exaggeration to say that most of our countrymen and countrywomen know that there has never been a fair election in this country, and the fact that most politicians are corrupt. This is true because of dominating feudals in much o f the country.

I have expressed my thoughts at length on this thread. I will try to explain a bit more.

1. India progressed while it had all the corruption etc... A certain level of corruption does not inhibit progress in certain matters.
2. These certain matters include solving energy shortages, creating conducive environment for investments, improving infrastructure; case in point being India.
3. We have been conditioned to believe that politicians are the root of all evil. That is a partial truth at best. We have also been conditioned to expect some mythical leader, some one like Khomeini. We accept this precisely because we know our own shortcomings. Many people welcomed Musharraf and then were disappointed. This happens again and again. If IK can not win elections fair and square, he has no right to complain. His conduct is simply a reflection of power politics, like all the rest. For that he is no better than others.

He may not be corrupt himself, and indeed this is his selling point. But looking at the people around IK does not inspire confidence.

4. However, the most important thing is that there is no guarantee that he would be allowed to steer policies the way he wants. Would he be allowed by Establishment to set course in foreign policy? Would he be allowed to engage India the way he wants? What about Afghan policy? I have already written about this above and else where.

5. One wonders if IK by himself is capable of tackling all the problems that are chronic in Pakistan. Would he be able to raise the tax-GDP ratio? Would he be able to implement any land reforms? Would IK be able to bring any positive change in the way NS is already running matters? How would he solve energy problem? How would he tackle extremism? How can he improve the law-and-order situation?

6. Now, lastly, how would IK respond when he is confronted with similar protests and politics which he is himself conducting? Its a fair question. What goes around comes around.

In any case. I have said enough on this thread. I do not see IK doing much better than NS at this point. If anything power politics of confrontation and disruption are making matters worse. Only very dedicated IK supporters would ignore this problem. For this alone IK gets negative ratings from me. How come you do not see how IK is lending weight to beaten pawns like Shk Rasheed, Gujrat Chaudhries, and TuQ, the most egotistical megalomaniac in today's political landscape?

IK is not standing on any principles. It is purely a matter or power politics. He'd better wait for his chance according to constitution.

 

[Multani]

I have expressed my thoughts at length on this thread. I will try to explain a bit more.

1. India progressed while it had all the corruption etc... A certain level of corruption does not inhibit progress in certain matters.
2. These certain matters include solving energy shortages, creating conducive environment for investments, improving infrastructure; case in point being India.
3. We have been conditioned to believe that politicians are the root of all evil. That is a partial truth at best. We have also been conditioned to expect some mythical leader, some one like Khomeini. We accept this precisely because we know our own shortcomings. Many people welcomed Musharraf and then were disappointed. This happens again and again. If IK can not win elections fair and square, he has no right to complain. His conduct is simply a reflection of power politics, like all the rest. For that he is no better than others.

He may not be corrupt himself, and indeed this is his selling point. But looking at the people around IK does not inspire confidence.

4. However, the most important thing is that there is no guarantee that he would be allowed to steer policies the way he wants. Would he be allowed by Establishment to set course in foreign policy? Would he be allowed to engage India the way he wants? What about Afghan policy? I have already written about this above and else where.

5. One wonders if IK by himself is capable of tackling all the problems that are chronic in Pakistan. Would he be able to raise the tax-GDP ratio? Would he be able to implement any land reforms? Would IK be able to bring any positive change in the way NS is already running matters? How would he solve energy problem? How would he tackle extremism? How can he improve the law-and-order situation?

6. Now, lastly, how would IK respond when he is confronted with similar protests and politics which he is himself conducting? Its a fair question. What goes around comes around.

In any case. I have said enough on this thread. I do not see IK doing much better than NS at this point. If anything power politics of confrontation and disruption are making matters worse. Only very dedicated IK supporters would ignore this problem. For this alone IK gets negative ratings from me. How come you do not see how IK is lending weight to beaten pawns like Shk Rasheed, Gujrat Chaudhries, and TuQ, the most egotistical megalomaniac in today's political landscape?

IK is not standing on any principles. It is purely a matter or power politics. He'd better wait for his chance according to constitution.

Thank you for the detailed reply. I too haven't seen IK's stance on the questions you are asking. He hasn't answered them or on a serious note has been ignoring them. But they are pressing points more important than corruption, this is what I feel now. Because he hasn't answered these questions and laid out his agenda for everyone to judge in clear terms, people are in doubt. From the sounds of your valid points, IK appears to be a maverick and not a wholesome leader. I don't want such thoughts in heart, and am saddened that you feel this way, but I now feel just as you do. IK is not qualified.

We need qualified people.

 

[Zarvan]

I have expressed my thoughts at length on this thread. I will try to explain a bit more.

1. India progressed while it had all the corruption etc... A certain level of corruption does not inhibit progress in certain matters.
2. These certain matters include solving energy shortages, creating conducive environment for investments, improving infrastructure; case in point being India.
3. We have been conditioned to believe that politicians are the root of all evil. That is a partial truth at best. We have also been conditioned to expect some mythical leader, some one like Khomeini. We accept this precisely because we know our own shortcomings. Many people welcomed Musharraf and then were disappointed. This happens again and again. If IK can not win elections fair and square, he has no right to complain. His conduct is simply a reflection of power politics, like all the rest. For that he is no better than others.

He may not be corrupt himself, and indeed this is his selling point. But looking at the people around IK does not inspire confidence.

4. However, the most important thing is that there is no guarantee that he would be allowed to steer policies the way he wants. Would he be allowed by Establishment to set course in foreign policy? Would he be allowed to engage India the way he wants? What about Afghan policy? I have already written about this above and else where.

5. One wonders if IK by himself is capable of tackling all the problems that are chronic in Pakistan. Would he be able to raise the tax-GDP ratio? Would he be able to implement any land reforms? Would IK be able to bring any positive change in the way NS is already running matters? How would he solve energy problem? How would he tackle extremism? How can he improve the law-and-order situation?

6. Now, lastly, how would IK respond when he is confronted with similar protests and politics which he is himself conducting? Its a fair question. What goes around comes around.

In any case. I have said enough on this thread. I do not see IK doing much better than NS at this point. If anything power politics of confrontation and disruption are making matters worse. Only very dedicated IK supporters would ignore this problem. For this alone IK gets negative ratings from me. How come you do not see how IK is lending weight to beaten pawns like Shk Rasheed, Gujrat Chaudhries, and TuQ, the most egotistical megalomaniac in today's political landscape?

IK is not standing on any principles. It is purely a matter or power politics. He'd better wait for his chance according to constitution.

Sir when elections are fraud every party says this many things were shown on TV sir this election is fraud and it would have beem power politics if Imran wouldn't have been saying samething he said from day one open 4 seats and if we don't get justice we would be on roads and if he refused Musharraf for than no question off power politics here

 

[Chak Bamu]

However, are you prepared to let your homeland ruled by tried-and-tested seasoned thieves and robbers in the name of constitution and democracy

Yes. Without any hesitation whatsoever.

I hate to say but what holds the priority here? constitution and democracy or the country?

Constitution. Without any hesitation whatsoever. There is NO country without constitution. If Pakistan can not be run under constitution, then I might as well migrate to some other place like you.

Chak, you take out Army from the picture and my friend, next morning you'll wake up in a sold-out country.

India was not sold out. Why? How come it is only countries like Pakistan and Thailand which must go through episodes of Military rule?

You are only repeating things which you have been conditioned to accept implicitly. I have broken free of this propaganda. About time you make the leap too. What is the worst that can happen if NS were to complete his term? Would it be any worse than 2008-2013? I bet Pakistan would be better off, not worse off. Just look at what is happening right now because of Establishment support to disruptionists? Where has the stock market gone in the last ten days? How is the most productive region of the whole country suffered? Do ends justify the means? Is it OK to support TuQ in his ambitions? I do not know if the country is sold-out. I do know that support of people like you is helping anarchists send it to gutter. Elements like Shuja Pasha are wittingly or unwittingly helping it get there.

I would happily take the risk with constitutional government than watch it go down the gutter in an unconsitutional Establishment-backed power politics mess.

Yesterday I was in a meeting with my boss. She wanted to introduce to me her recently hired post-Doc. The post-Doc informed me that she did her PhD from University of Sydney. I replied to her that I am aware of UoS for my father graduated from University of New South Wales, which is located nearby. My boss turned towards me and said "O' your father graduated from UNSW? I never thought of it for you are from Pakistan!".

Australia is far away from Pakistan. I do not blame her for making an assumption, which if not warranted, was not unwarranted either.

Chak, I wanted to say but could not that what the hell you mean by that? That my father's generation was illiterate? That Pakistanis don't acquire higher education? This is how we are viewed and it is only because of Pakistani 'badmaashia' who has brought Pakistan to this low in the eyes of international community. It was the same Pakistan whose economy was better than all the countries in South Asia, whose economical plans were followed by South Korea, and in whose Universities and Medical colleges, students from Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Singapore and many other South Asian countries used to come to study. Just 15 years ago, Pakistan was a desirable place for living, affordable, and safe. Look what has happened to it now? and who is responsible for that?

Look at things dispassionately. You are making a number of assumptions here:

1. Pakistan is where it is because of 'badmaashia'. I am assuming that you mean NS. You really need to go back all the way to abrogation of 1956 constitution, and not a point / person of your choice which really seems arbitrary.

2. You seem to think that Pakistan suffers because of any one person. You are sadly mistaken.

3. You are assuming that Pakistan was a desirable place to live 15 years ago, even though all the ingredients had been in place long before.

You really should question each of these assumptions, because none of these is correct IMV.

I cant express my hate for Pakistani badmaashia, and therefore I believe that Army has to be there to keep a check on this badmaashia. They have almost destroyed my country when the Army was there, if it was not there, I cant even imagine what this badmaashia would have done to this country.

If Pakistan exists because it was made to last, then no one can sell it. Pakistan is an act of God. It is going no where. Your worries are needed elsewhere, not Pakistan. At best you are contributing to confusion, and at worst harming it. No good ever EVER came out of military rule. No harm ever came from being systematic.

If NS would not deliver, we shall replace him. Wish I could say the same about any random dictator who usurps power. I really do not know what you are thinking or from where you get your ideas.

Sir when elections are fraud every party says this many things were shown on TV sir this election is fraud and it would have beem power politics if Imran wouldn't have been saying samething he said from day one open 4 seats and if we don't get justice we would be on roads and if he refused Musharraf for than no question off power politics here

Zarvan, I did remark in my answer to your post that I might be wasting my time. I was right. I did make a mistake in engaging you.

I do recall you are the same person who quoted OBL as an authority when you were hell-bent on proving that democracy is kufr. When I see you supporting IK, I know for sure it is only because you hope that he would go to war with India so that you can have your Ghazwa. If you had any principles, I would respect you even if you opposed me.

Stay away from me. You are confused and you like to spread confusion.

 

[SBD-3]

Azadi march has become a bigger problem for PTI than PML-N.
PTI, like a gambler making a last ditch attempt to salvage his loss, has put little too much at stake. Had Imran just announced a Jalsa, there would have been a face saving plus he could make a show of power in Islamabad. However, dharna is little too much for his followers. TuQ has followers insane enough to kill their own children if TuQ orders them to do so, but PTI is a political party where people have more political interest than ideological ones. The more he drags dharna forward, the more it would become like a sit in of "Hamari Dharti Hamari Marzi" Where after a week only a couple of dozens of people would remain on the spot and given a win-win to the government.
1- If he remains peaceful, government can just exhaust him.
2- If he tries to incite violence like TuQ, he will lose out again.
He must find a way to save face else kiss bye bye to PTI's future in Punjab at least...

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

"I have always led from the front. In Islamabad, I will sleep on the streets with the people and eat what they eat." Chairman Imran Khan

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

Even in 21st April 2011, he also slept on container at Peshawar dharna