Proposed Block 70 F-16 for India to have F-35 technology

[CHI RULES]

Thats the point If you dont get equal in no. Then atleast get equal in quality. ALL WE NEED NOW IS SUKHOI.

To be honest perhaps Sukhoi deal has been lost so we should go for any other deal in secrecy and on urgent basis,

As for Su35 fans though SU35 has benefits still it has some limitations i.e lesser agility/speed issues in dog fights which will be must in near future Pak/India scenario. High RCS is also there though may be lesser than SU30.

Russia has also developed a prototype SU37 which looks more feasible for Pak if we can secure an order.

This will have no impact on Pakistan other than just superficial "look what we got" as the F-16 has been ingrained in the Pakistan psyche. F-16 is the past. The only fighter PAF should be looking to is over the horizon - 5th gen over the next decade plus. Untill then the present F-16 does the job and will keep slogging it out until then. Save money and then when it is time to upgrade - move up to next level by seeking Chinese 5th gen. as that will be the only source available past 2025. Over that time Chinese aviation industry will mature.

Problem is we also have legacy fighters to be replaced in numbers so we can't save money at expense of the lives of our brave PAF pilots who knowing that they are handling flying coffins still doing their job. i.e Mirage-III and F7P.

 

[Hindustani78]

f35 Helmet is made by Elbit systems from Israel

September 24, 2015

The U.S. Navy's next round of carrier testing of the Lockheed Martin Corp F-35C stealth fighter jet will include new helmets and jets fully loaded with internal weapons, a company official told Reuters.

 

[DavidSling]

September 24, 2015

The U.S. Navy's next round of carrier testing of the Lockheed Martin Corp F-35C stealth fighter jet will include new helmets and jets fully loaded with internal weapons, a company official told Reuters.

Helmet-Mounted Display System[edit]

Helmet-Mounted Display System for the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter
Vision Systems International (VSI; the Elbit Systems/Rockwell Collins joint venture) along with Helmet Integrated Systems, Ltd. developed the Helmet-Mounted Display System (HMDS) for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter aircraft. In addition to standard HMD capabilities offered by other systems, HMDS fully utilizes the advanced avionics architecture of the F-35 and provides the pilot video with imagery in day or night conditions. Consequently, the F-35 is the first tactical fighter jet in 50 years to fly without a HUD.[16][17] A BAE Systems helmet was considered when HMDS development was experiencing significant problems, but these issues were eventually worked out.[18][19] The Helmet-Mounted Display System was fully operational and ready for delivery in July 2014.[20]

 

[nangyale]

If India goes for the F-16 that would be end of story for the LCA, I guess.
Good business opportunity for LM though. India could be manufacturing F16s till 2030 and then switch over to F35s.

For Pakistan this surely will mean the end of further new built F16 procurement, but then again I don't think Pakistan was interested in new built F16s at full price either. Sure Paksitan will always wellcome subsdised or used F16s at 1/10th of the price but no way it is willing to pay full price.

 

[The SC]

Are u joking or u a fool. THIS IS FOR SINGLE ENGINE fighter program apart from Su Rafale. Against J10, Jf17, J7 etc. F16 will be no best replacement for Mig21. F16 can be a tougher opponent for J11 Su30MKK than Gripin or Tejas

That may only help in the short term. The active tenure of a pilot is around 15 years. So any advantage would be mitigated/nullified by ~2025.



But that exactly what India wants. This is one deal which enhances IAF while directly hurting the PAF.

PAF moving to a new platform means India has succeeded in forcing PAF waste its money which would otherwise go into other acquisitions.

This is the reason why India is going for both F-16s and Gripens .

The only option for PAF would be Chinese ones. Others would be very expensive.

Short term is 5 years, medium term is 10 years, with 15 years you are talking about long term..
India might have succeeded in the loss of a deal for 8 F-16s, but it can not intervene in other places for other deals.. it is all about money, Pakistan saved it for better deals since it had intelligence of what was cooking between the US and India..

 

[dadeechi]

Short term is 5 years, medium term is 10 years, with 15 years you are talking about long term..
India might have succeeded in the loss of a deal for 8 F-16s, but it can not intervene in other places for other deals.. it is all about money, Pakistan saved it for better deals since it had intelligence of what was cooking between the US and India..

That's exactly what I was alluding to. Also, India would be procuring more than 200+ of these. So IAF would surpass PAF in both quantity and quality as IAF's F-16s would be the counterparts of PAF's JF-17s.

I never claimed that India has a veto over PAF procurements.

Do you think the deal for 8 F-16s failed due to India? Not at all.

The deal for F-16s was not stopped. Only the use of aid money was. US knows that PAF would no longer procure F-35s and is planning to go for J-31s instead. On the other hand, India is planning to procure 200 of these fighters as Pakistan would be retiring its 75 F-16 fighters. As you said its all about money.

India would be happy as long as these countries sell fighters rather than give away them to PAF on aid. Only US has done that. Let's see if China would follow in US foot steps and give couple of J-31 squadrons on aid to Pakistan.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

We will be idiots if we think US is siding with India by selling or tranferring line for F-16. It knows how to be in business. It will sell to Pakistan something that can counter the F-16's. Like Radars or Jamming tech or missiles, then force India to get something to counter that.

No serious weapons platform business with US.

 

[The SC]

That's exactly what I was alluding to. Also, India would be procuring more than 200+ of these. So IAF would surpass PAF in both quantity and quality as IAF's F-16s would be the counterparts of PAF's JF-17s.

I never claimed that India has a veto over PAF procurements.

Do you think the deal for 8 F-16s failed due to India? Not at all.

The deal for F-16s was not stopped. Only the use of aid money was. US knows that PAF would no longer procure F-35s and is planning to go for J-31s instead. On the other hand, India is planning to procure 200 of these fighters as Pakistan would be retiring its 75 F-16 fighters. As you said its all about money.

India would be happy as long as these countries sell fighters rather than give away them to PAF on aid. Only US has done that. Let's see if China would follow in US foot steps and give couple of J-31 squadrons on aid to Pakistan.

I don't know if you know that Pakistan is a nation of 200 million people and that it is not a banana republic.. It has its own military budget and it procures weapons accordingly.. look how big is your navy in comparison.. and do you really think tat the 8 submarines that are being built are some kind of aid? they will cost around 5 billion dollars.. Pakistan will pay that over a 12 year period, it can do the same or even more for its air force.. by the way one should first understand that the Pakistani defense doctrine is mainly defensive and based on deterrence.. So even if India gets 1000 4 G fighters and some 5th G. .The Pakistani doctrine will not change much, they still can deter any attack..

 

[dadeechi]

I don't know if you know that Pakistan is a nation of 200 million people and that it is not a banana republic.. It has its own military budget and it procures weapons accordingly.. look how big is your navy in comparison.. and do you really think tat the 8 submarines that are being built are some kind of aid? they will cost around 5 billion dollars.. Pakistan will pay that over a 12 year period, it can do the same or even more for its air force.. by the way one should first understand that the Pakistani defense doctrine is mainly defensive and base on deterrence.. So even if India gets 1000 4 G fighters and some 5th G. .The Pakistani doctrine will not change much, they still can deter any attack..

Where did I say Pakistan cannot afford? The fact is if China gave those 8 submarines for free (on aid), Pakistan could get 2 squadrons of SU-35s from Russia instead using the money saved.

Only US has given military equipment as aid. Russia and EU countries expect the customers to pay. My point was can China replace US and give military equipment to Pakistan as aid?

 

[Skull and Bones]

So in anyway India will be getting something it has rejected before!

I do not believe, sensitive tech from the F-22 and F-35 will be integrated on the Block 70..sensor fusion and "state of the art mission computers, data management systems, a one Gigabyte ethernet data system and a new centre pedestal display" Are all available somehow on the market..expensive maybe! but available..

F-16 Block 70 was rejected because of two reasons, first being not in the league of Rafale/Eurofighter in combat capability, second being US was reluctant to share critical technologies.

With Rafale in place, we need another range of light/middle weight fighter to have a combat ready air force. Surely LCA not not enough to tackle the J-10/J-31 threat.

 

[dadeechi]

September 24, 2015

The U.S. Navy's next round of carrier testing of the Lockheed Martin Corp F-35C stealth fighter jet will include new helmets and jets fully loaded with internal weapons, a company official told Reuters.

Fort Worth, Texas, June 22, 2016 – Israeli and U.S. government leaders joined Lockheed Martin (NYSE: LMT) to celebrate the rollout of the first Israeli Air Force F-35A Lightning II, marking a major production milestone for the future of Israel’s national defense.

“Israel is proud to be the first country in the area to receive and operate it,” said Avigdor Liberman, Israel’s Minister of Defense. “The F-35 is the best aircraft in the world and the choice of all our military leadership at its highest level. It is clear and obvious to us and to the entire region that the new F-35, the Adir, will create real deterrence and enhance our capabilities for a long time.”

Brig. Gen. Tal Kelman, IAF Chief of Staff said, “As a pilot who has flown more than 30 years in a great variety of aircraft, I had the privilege of flying the F-35 simulator in Fort Worth and it was like holding the future in my hands. The unique combination of split-edge technology, lethality and the amazing man-machine interface will lead the world to the fifth generation."

Joining the Minister at the ceremony, attended by more than 400 guests from government, the military and industry, were the Honorable U.S. Ambassador to Israel Daniel Shapiro; Minister Tzachi Hanegbi of Israel’s Office of the Prime Minister; Heidi Grant, Deputy Under Secretary of the U.S. Air Force for International Affairs; Lt. Gen. Chris Bogdan, F-35 Program Executive Officer, Texas Governor Greg Abbott, and Texas State Congressman Craig Goldman.

“We’re honored to partner with Israel and help strengthen the deep and lasting partnership between our two nations,” said Marillyn Hewson, Lockheed Martin Chairman, President and CEO at the ceremony. “The F-35 will help Israel remain a beacon of strength and stability in the region and support a safe and secure homeland for generations to come.”

Israel’s F-35, called Adir – which means “Mighty One” in Hebrew – will be a significant addition to maintaining Israel’s qualitative military edge in the Middle East region, with its advanced capability to defeat emerging threats, including advanced missiles and heavily-defended airspace. The F-35 combines advanced low observable stealth technology with fighter speed and agility, fully fused sensor information, network-enabled operations and advanced sustainment support.

Israel’s program of record is 33 F-35A Conventional Take Off and Landing, or CTOL, aircraft, acquired through the U.S. government’s Foreign Military Sales (FMS) program. Israel’s contribution to the F-35 program includes Israel Aerospace Industries F-35A wing production; Elbit Systems Ltd. work on the Generation III helmet-mounted display system, which all F-35 pilots fleet-wide will wear; and Elbit Systems-Cyclone F-35 center fuselage composite components production.

Three distinct variants of the F-35 will replace the F-16 Fighting Falcon and A/OA-10 Thunderbolt II for the U.S. Air Force, the F/A-18 Hornet for the U.S. Navy, the F/A-18 and AV-8B Harrier for the U.S. Marine Corps, and a variety of fighters for at least 11 other countries. Following the U.S. Marine Corps' July 2015 combat-ready Initial Operational Capability (IOC) declaration, the U.S. Air Force and U.S. Navy intend to attain service IOC this year and in 2018, respectively. More than 170 delivered F-35s have flown more than 60,000 flight hours, fleet-wide.

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/ne...brate-rollout-of-israels-first-f-35-adir.html

@DavidSling

 

[kaykay]

I do not think that it will give India any more capabilities than the SU-30 and the Rafale,, it will increase the numbers of 4th generation though.. and please do not forget that Pakistan was operating it for more than 30 years and they will be having the JF-17 block 3 in numbers plus inducting either the EF or the SU-35 pretty soon add the possibility of the J-10B.C, Mirage 2000-9 and more F-16s..All of them BVR capable..


I understand that, and it has also an AESA radar and an anti-ground collision system, plus many other goodies too, but still it is not in par with the Rafale or the 5th G warplanes.. it will have some edge in tech over the PAF F-16 block 52, but PAF has an edge in experience on the F-16 in general,,

Well things have changed a bit....IAF now is looking for a cheap, single engine, medium weight, multirole yet powerful aircraft in numbers apart from Rafale and Tejas in short term. F-16 block70 serves this purpose as not only Its cheaper to buy and maintain but It also offer some state of the art weapons and stuffs for eg Aim-120D coupled with a mature AESA.
PS: No doubt Rafales and Super Sukhois will be better but then they are not just costlier to buy but also to maintain. Also we'll have a good number of them already as well( 300+).

 

[Avyator]

To buy another LWF when we have Tejas is stupid; UNLESS, the plan here is to take the F-16 production line to India and then turn off the tap to Pakistan, if we can afford such an expensive maneuver, it would be a master stroke.

Then PAF would pretty much HAVE to try and find another frontline fighter, and I doubt they have the money to get a new 4th Gen fighter, considering that most of these F16's were acquired through generous American aid, which no other country would offer them in this day and age (even America is slowly turning off the tap).

 

[kaykay]

If India goes for the F-16 that would be end of story for the LCA, I guess.
Good business opportunity for LM though. India could be manufacturing F16s till 2030 and then switch over to F35s.

For Pakistan this surely will mean the end of further new built F16 procurement, but then again I don't think Pakistan was interested in new built F16s at full price either. Sure Paksitan will always wellcome subsdised or used F16s at 1/10th of the price but no way it is willing to pay full price.

BS. 120 Tejas( 100 of them with AESA radar) are already on orders with or without F-16s or GripenE.

 

[C130]

only way I can see this deal going down is if at-least 36 are made in the U.S for $5 billlion move production to India which will probably cost a few billion to setup so add another $2 billion. Made in India Vipers made for $60 to $70 million. India produces 100 within the next 4-5 years for $6 billion to $8 billion, so $13 billion to $15 billion you got 136 of the most advance F-16s in the world within 5 to 6 years.

weapons package would include

136 Sniper ER or LITENING 4 ($200 million)
136 HMCS ($15 million)
1088 AIM-120D ($1.1 billion)
544 AIM-9X block 2 ($300 to $500 million)
10,000 JDAM kits ($200 million)
5,000 PAVEWAVE kits ($200 million)
1,000 CBU-97 ($400 million)
250 Harpoon IIER+ ($1 billion)
250 AGM-88E HARM ($500 million)
500 JSOW-ER (250 million)


all and all, $17 to $20 billion within the next 6 to 8 years.


at the end of 8 years might be able to start buying some F-35A,B, and C for less than $100 million each.