Propaganda Videos

[dabong1]

Wasnt it some Indian general who said, Pakistan Army is a group of lions led by a group of donkeys ?

No it wasnt some indian general talking about the pakistani's it was the historian Alan Clarke scathing examinations of British First World War generals.
Clark attributed the phrase to a conversation between German generals Erich Ludendorff and Max Hoffmann.

Ludendorff: The English soldiers fight like lions.
Hoffmann: True. But don't we know that they are lions led by donkeys.

 

[EagleEyes]

john,

Indian leadership is not too good either. Pakistan carried out a successful attack, and damaged Indian forces as it intended to, but further goals couldn't be achieved, but lets save this related discussion to the Kargil War itself.

 

[blain2]

Blain,

You are missing the point.

Pakistan Army denied its involvement in the entire affair, giving the credit to terrorists. The video and Musharraf's admission in the book proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was an entire Pakistani Army fantasy of paying back in kind to India after the world of hurt it got from Siachen.

I feel really sad for the poor soldiers which the Pakistani Army abandoned.

No food, no water, no ammo.

A great tragedy. Wasnt it some Indian general who said, Pakistan Army is a group of lions led by a group of donkeys ?

John Jones,

Yaar stop eating up propaganda as is. Learn to sift through it. Both sides are well adept at using it to own advantage so not all of it is true.

Go through the Kargil and a few other threads (why PA has lost etc. etc. one) thread exchange where Sword and I discussed the operations and many other things. I do not want to repeat myself here.

Pakistani Army did what it thought made sense operationally from a tactical standpoint. That some jawans were left on the ridges/watersheds after the combat is something that happens all the time during wars. There was a need to deny Pakistani involvement in the operation just as in another time, IA denied any or all involvement during its operations to stir up the pot in East Pakistan.

The terrain and the logistical difficulties were as such that some people could not be evacuated (in some cases, there was no one left at the post to evacuate the injured) so from a propaganda point (or to prove a point), I can see what you are trying to say...however from the Pakistani side I can tell you that some unfortunately had to undergo a lot but that was the cost to be paid for the operation. I have said this before and will say it again, as long as the Kashmir issue remains unresolved, issues like this will keep on popping up.

Wasnt it some Indian general who said, Pakistan Army is a group of lions led by a group of donkeys ?

I don't want to get into what someone said about the PA etc., simply because a thousand other opinions exist about the other side as well. In any case search the other threads as we have gone over these things quite a few times.

 

[john_holmes]

John Jones,

Yaar stop eating up propaganda as is. Learn to sift through it. Both sides are well adept at using it to own advantage so not all of it is true.

I am not saying I am a military expert. I look at things in a logical perspective. To give you a chronology of events in a simple format -

1. Pakistan sneaks in the PA
2. Pakistan denies the presence of PA
3. Dead bodies of PA are found, India has captured Pakistani POWs
4. Dead bodies are handed over back to Pakistani Army
5. Musharraf claims that Pakistan Army was involved

Why deny and lose face and credibility ?

Go through the Kargil and a few other threads (why PA has lost etc. etc. one) thread exchange where Sword and I discussed the operations and many other things. I do not want to repeat myself here.

Fair enough, but I have listed out the points above, and I seek the Pakistani perspective. During 65 and 71, the public had great support for the Army and the morale was quite high. but I found there was a general sense of cynicysm among the Pakistani public.

Pakistani Army did what it thought made sense operationally from a tactical standpoint. That some jawans were left on the ridges/watersheds after the combat is something that happens all the time during wars. There was a need to deny Pakistani involvement in the operation just as in another time, IA denied any or all involvement during its operations to stir up the pot in East Pakistan.

Tactical/Strategical - big words my friend. If the army wants to waste human blood, there has to be some gain right ??

Regarding East Pakistan, India did its homework. We had the mukti bahini,under our control, got our timing right, and we achieved all our strategic objectives.

The terrain and the logistical difficulties were as such that some people could not be evacuated (in some cases, there was no one left at the post to evacuate the injured) so from a propaganda point (or to prove a point), I can see what you are trying to say...however from the Pakistani side I can tell you that some unfortunately had to undergo a lot but that was the cost to be paid for the operation. I have said this before and will say it again, as long as the Kashmir issue remains unresolved, issues like this will keep on popping up.

Does the Pakistan Army when recruiting the frontline soldiers, make them sign a statement that if the scenario demands they will be abandoned ? Apologies if this sounds insulting, but NO PROFESSIONAL ARMY will leave behind its comrades.

I don't want to get into what someone said about the PA etc., simply because a thousand other opinions exist about the other side as well. In any case search the other threads as we have gone over these things quite a few times.

I agree, what we need is dispassionate analysis of the events rather than get carried away with propoganda.

Cheers mate.

 

[john_holmes]

john,

Indian leadership is not too good either. Pakistan carried out a successful attack, and damaged Indian forces as it intended to, but further goals couldn't be achieved, but lets save this related discussion to the Kargil War itself.

Sir,

One thing I guarantee you is, our Army is waiting to get off the leash from the politicians. They form the core leadership. These buffoons set the objectives. The army just follows the orders.

 

[EagleEyes]

During 65 and 71, the public had great support for the Army and the morale was quite high. but I found there was a general sense of cynicysm among the Pakistani public.

Hello!! The attack was a secret. Public didn't know a thing.

 

[john_holmes]

Hello!! The attack was a secret. Public didn't know a thing.

Once India made it known to the world, that PA had occupied the Kargil heights, nothing was a secret.

I do not wish to bring Indian media into the conversation, for I will be accussed of buying into sensationalist media propaganda.

I would refer the archives in Dawn, specifically the articles by Ayaz Amir and ilk.

If I may ask a question, since 65 war is celebrated with great gusto, why is PA not giving the similar status to Kargil ??

Wasnt it the greatest strategic win by PA since independence ?