Proof of Indian Involvement in Waziristan found: Army

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

So Agno, what qualifies for the evidence? When the Pakistan Armed forces will capture a Uniformed Indian Army Colonel in Waziristan? Until now it was only coming from the Police and other unknown sources, now it is coming from the ISPR and an officer of Major General rank is telling. Is he deliberately lying? and if yes, why would he do that? I believe that these folks are far more informed than a majority of us here.

I think this goes to EIG's post above, on how Government's may have information and ways of showing culpability that the average citizen may not be aware of, and evidence that may not necessarily stand up in court, but would be enough to illustrate complicity.

Might Pakistan have such evidence? Perhaps - I am just pointing out that materials with 'Made in India' labels are not enough. The DG ISPR did indicate that they are still gathering evidence and forwarding it to the foreign ministry.

However, on EIG's point about governments being convinced, I have concerns on how effective that avenue would be given that a government may choose to ignore concerns from another nation if the acknowledgement of those concerns is perceived as weighing against their national interests.

Would the US condemn Israel for war crimes for example, or allow a UNSC resolution doing so? No, and it has shown that in the past.

So would the US, even if Paksitan were to provide evidence, openly and publicly condemn a country with which it is building a strategic partnership and with whom it hopes to seal hundreds of billions of dollars worth of economic and military deals?

As in the case of Israel, I would argue no. Pakistan might be able to convince the US to privately put pressure on the Indians, but I do not see a public condemnation coming forth.

 

[Goodperson]

Such evidence will not stand a chance even in Pakistan court of Law and perhaps would be ridiculed by Pakistani Ministers like Rehman Malik.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

That's actually more or less how they proved involvement of Pakistani militants in Mumbai attacks.

That's a great point, but I would disagree somewhat.

I understand that India shot from the hip in blaming Pakistan five seconds after the attack happened. But more conclusive evidence - to the extent that these things can be conclusive, and which we as common people have access to - came later in the form of the terrorists' recorded conversations, the materials they had with them, Kasab, his NIC number, the village where he lived and so on.

Taken by themselves none of the evidence will stand up in court, or anywhere else. Taken together, it presents a different picture, IMO.

Don't get me wrong; I said then and now that I do not believe that GOP or any arm of the GOP was involved in the attack. I believe in the non- state actors theory. Of course Pakistan supports trouble in India and vice versa, but I refuse to believe that the Pakistani establishment is so utterly stupid as to sponsor Mumbai.

 

[SMC]

Such evidence will not stand a chance even in Pakistan court of Law and perhaps would be ridiculed by Pakistani Ministers like Rehman Malik.

But isn't that how india a lot of times proved Pakistani involvement or LeT involvement?

 

[SMC]

That's a great point, but I would disagree somewhat.

I understand that India shot from the hip in blaming Pakistan five seconds after the attack happened. But more conclusive evidence - to the extent that these things can be conclusive, and which we as common people have access to - came later in the form of the terrorists' recorded conversations, the materials they had with them, Kasab, his NIC number, the village where he lived and so on.

Taken by themselves none of the evidence will stand up in court, or anywhere else. Taken together, it presents a different picture, IMO.

Don't get me wrong; I said then and now that I do not believe that GOP or any arm of the GOP was involved in the attack. I believe in the non- state actors theory. Of course Pakistan supports trouble in India and vice versa, but I refuse to believe that the Pakistani establishment is so utterly stupid as to sponsor Mumbai.

The dossier given to Pakistan pretty much only contained the 'Made in Pakistan' or something along that lines of stuff. Additionally, the whole confession of Kasab aided the 'proof'. By aided, I really do mean that it wasn't the major part of the proof, since it wasn't included in a great detail in the dossier.

 

[Goodperson]

But isn't that how india a lot of times proved Pakistani involvement or LeT involvement?

Where does that question arise, I am pointing Pakistan's much published stand regarding Saeed.

Even though lots of Pakistani do not agree Kasab as a Pakistani but it is amusing when Pakistani court calls him a absconder.

Regarding LeT Pakistan calls such organizations freedom fighters.

 

[SMC]

I think sooner or later the proof will become public. Right now, as mentioned, US will simply pressure Pakistan to stop going public with it. As mentioned by AM, whatever is in US interest, it will do, even if its immoral - and that has been proven over time. It's not an impartial mediator as some indian members try to imply like UN.

 

[qsaark]

Looks like Pakistan needs an Ajmal Qassab, rest of the material is already there. BTW, didn't Qassab said that he was trained by the Pakistan Military and that he met with a Pakistan Army General as well? or maybe I am just mixing up things?

 

[Goodperson]

Looks like Pakistan needs an Ajmal Qassab, rest of the material is already there. BTW, didn't Qassab said that he was trained by the Pakistan Military and that he met with a Pakistan Army General as well? or maybe I am just mixing up things?

True but that can happen only if India sends Ajmal Kasab.

But problem is India does not indulge in such activities.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

...........

However, on EIG's point about governments being convinced, I have concerns on how effective that avenue would be given that a government may choose to ignore concerns from another nation if the acknowledgement of those concerns is perceived as weighing against their national interests.

Would the US condemn Israel for war crimes for example, or allow a UNSC resolution doing so? No, and it has shown that in the past.

So would the US, even if Paksitan were to provide evidence, openly and publicly condemn a country with which it is building a strategic partnership and with whom it hopes to seal hundreds of billions of dollars worth of economic and military deals?

As in the case of Israel, I would argue no. Pakistan might be able to convince the US to privately put pressure on the Indians, but I do not see a public condemnation coming forth.

I agree that - conspiracy theories aside - there is a fair chance that what I suggested may not work. India is in bed with the US economically and, increasingly, strategically, so Pakistan may have an uphill time.

Because it seems to me that the US is not going to tolerate anything that detracts from their key objective - getting the PA to destroy the terrorists. Having invested billions of dollars and unquantifiable prestige into Afghanistan, if India does support these same terrorists, then why, there is a good chance that the US will kick our a$$. In private, but hard.

 

[Goodperson]

I think sooner or later the proof will become public. Right now, as mentioned, US will simply pressure Pakistan to stop going public with it. As mentioned by AM, whatever is in US interest, it will do, even if its immoral - and that has been proven over time. It's not an impartial mediator as some indian members try to imply like UN.

What ? Isn't the evidence made public yet? or what stops it the truth right ? such claims do not have any meaning even general Pakistanis see the reality.

Such publications does not carry out meaning Pakistan only wants countrymen to believe India's hand is involved in all its trouble with Jihadis.

Truth will never die and lies do not last long.

 

[qsaark]

But problem is India does not indulge in such activities.

Very correctly said. It were Chinese who were training Mukti Bahini and providing them with weapons because India does not indulge in such activities.

 

[Goodperson]

Very correctly said. It were Chinese who were training Mukti Bahini and providing them with weapons because India does not indulge in such activities.

qsaark , This is the forum wherin we are involved in discussion. You are mixing two separate topics. There are several threads on BD. Do not mix two topics.

My opinion on Pakistan sending terrorist completely changed when I saw it live in India. My perception was totally different when I was in US.

Believe me you will never find India Kasab because India does not indulge in such activities.

 

[SMC]

Won't find indian kasab? They don't have to send actual foot soldiers, they can simply fund the activity. It's really not as hard to believe as you're making it sound like.

India not indulging in activities such as this is a mere opinion.

 

[SMC]

What ? Isn't the evidence made public yet? or what stops it the truth right ? such claims do not have any meaning even general Pakistanis see the reality.

Such publications does not carry out meaning Pakistan only wants countrymen to believe India's hand is involved in all its trouble with Jihadis.

Truth will never die and lies do not last long.

No, what stops is the eunuch politicians of Pakistan. I know for a fact that even before this, there was a undeniable proof of indian involvement including pictures. Why they never went to public - I believe it's due to US pressure. It's against US interests to do so and US has done immoral things that were in its interest before and no reason why it can't do again.