Promise and reality: the air-to-air BVR

[MastanKhan]

Hi Chogy,

Thanks for your comments. What it boils down to is that the game of the air warfare has changed and the fighter pilots of the countries with true long range bvr's are discovering new ways to combat the enemy beyong the horizon. Their aerial combat techniques have changed

The game of visually recognizing the enemy aircraft before engaging in combat is left to the electronic eye and the sensors that can tell you what you are facing and at what distance.

It must be very very difficult for air forces who were dependant on their higher quality close combat dog fighting fighter pilots who loved to take on the enemy one on one or one on five and by shear skill of their experties tactics and ingenuity would take charge over the less capable enemy pilot.

Isn't technology ruthless in the way it has changed the game of aerial warfare---.

I would like to know from your personal experience---how difficult was it for the first generation of fighter pilots to adapt to shoot and scoot rather than what they were used to---.

 

[MastanKhan]

Very well said mastan sahab. BTW, you are here candidly accepting the fact that in case of India pak air warfare, SU 30 MKIs (The ultimate Air Dominance fighter) will wipe off all that is in PAFs inventory.

Hi,

Well if they stay on their side----they are already at flight altitude---flying towards pak---and withing bvr of jf 17---they will dominate----but if they are over ak air space---the situation is not as black and white---because air craft would be taking off from different bases where the su 30 may well be within jf 17's sd10 range.

Secondly---the amraams on F 16's would be equally deadly to the su 30's---amraams have better kill ratio than their russian counter parts---.

Now it is not as simple as su 30 taking down a jf 17---what if the jf 17 sees the missile coming but doesnot bug out and keeps flying towards the su 30 and within moments the su 30 is also within the kill zone of the sd10---and makes the launch.

The electronic pakcages on both these planes are going to be pretty sophisticated---telling the pilots of the moment of launch to the time of impact---the other plane's position and when the other planes would be within range----it will again come down to who has bigger ballz---who can stand the heat in the face of an incoming missile.

The worst fear a su 30 driver has is---if he sees some of his friends flying su 30's taken out by the smaller F 16 or the JF 17---that would change the outcome of the air war.

My comments on the jf 17 and sd 10 are for the consumption of the pakistanis---where I am trying to urge them to go for deadlier systems that what they have or what they are getting---push them down harder so that they can come up stronger.

I will guarantee you one thing---if on day one---paf takes down a sqdrn of su 30's in combat and even looses a similiar numbers of f 16's and jf 17's---they have won the air war---they would tear up the psyche of the iaf pilots.

You have to wait till the first 24 hours of the air war to make a judgemental call as to who will rule the sky.

 

[nightcrawler]

@MastanKhan

Secondly---the amraams on F 16's would be equally deadly to the su 30's---amraams have better kill ratio than their russian counter parts---.

How??

 

[notorious_eagle]

Very well said mastan sahab. BTW, you are here candidly accepting the fact that in case of India pak air warfare, SU 30 MKIs (The ultimate Air Dominance fighter) will wipe off all that is in PAFs inventory.

The ultimate air dominance fighter , and Indian fanboys claim that they don't consider the SU30MKI a God's gift to Aviation. Honestly; get off your high horse, the only ultimate air dominance fighter is the F22 Raptor.

 

[nightcrawler]

@Chogy

Though I ain't properly equipped!!
To admit BVR>>Maneuverability you must acknowledge that US wars with the weak ones like Iraq/Afghan are somewht different when the opponent like China/Russ will emerge(God forbid that )
I mean if other party has something to counter US AIRBORNE WARNING AND CONTROL SYSTEM (like S-400 called AWAC KILLER) & has a sound SAM base then BVR alone is nothing.
In the weak case US forces just breach the country boundries bombed them & get back. Precisely before before any major onslaught US take their communication lines down.
But would this be possible for a stronger opponent!!. I mean before your fighters even enter their airfields they will get the idea. Stealth doesnt mean Invisible.

Just look at the broader side as you say I hit & run__this will not be the case if your AWAC get killed; & in the very 1st place if you are unable to lock on the opponent plane that say is more maneuverable

 

[khurasaan1]

Very well said mastan sahab. BTW, you are here candidly accepting the fact that in case of India pak air warfare, SU 30 MKIs (The ultimate Air Dominance fighter) will wipe off all that is in PAFs inventory.

Yes u right if in case PAF dont have BVR's...but now Alhamdolillah PAF is r capable to Face any kind of aircraft in any scenario.

 

[jha]

Hi,

Well if they stay on their side----they are already at flight altitude---flying towards pak---and withing bvr of jf 17---they will dominate----but if they are over ak air space---the situation is not as black and white---because air craft would be taking off from different bases where the su 30 may well be within jf 17's sd10 range.

Secondly---the amraams on F 16's would be equally deadly to the su 30's---amraams have better kill ratio than their russian counter parts---.

Now it is not as simple as su 30 taking down a jf 17---what if the jf 17 sees the missile coming but doesnot bug out and keeps flying towards the su 30 and within moments the su 30 is also within the kill zone of the sd10---and makes the launch.

The electronic pakcages on both these planes are going to be pretty sophisticated---telling the pilots of the moment of launch to the time of impact---the other plane's position and when the other planes would be within range----it will again come down to who has bigger ballz---who can stand the heat in the face of an incoming missile.

The worst fear a su 30 driver has is---if he sees some of his friends flying su 30's taken out by the smaller F 16 or the JF 17---that would change the outcome of the air war.

My comments on the jf 17 and sd 10 are for the consumption of the pakistanis---where I am trying to urge them to go for deadlier systems that what they have or what they are getting---push them down harder so that they can come up stronger.

I will guarantee you one thing---if on day one---paf takes down a sqdrn of su 30's in combat and even looses a similiar numbers of f 16's and jf 17's---they have won the air war---they would tear up the psyche of the iaf pilots.

You have to wait till the first 24 hours of the air war to make a judgemental call as to who will rule the sky.

very well said Mastan sir..could not have said better...

 

[Chogy]

MastanKhan and Nightcrawler - I will try to address your valid concerns.

@ MastanKhan: Even 20+ years ago, we were already separating an aerial fight into phases... Pre-merge, and merge/turning + separation. What we found was that those jets with strong BVR capabilities had an enormous advantage pre-merge. When we fought F-16 + AIM-9, all these guys wanted to do was practice prolonged, old-school turning fights. So they would give us complex sort and shoot problems, then we'd merge, and give them the turning fight they wanted - and to be honest, we wanted it too, because it was fun. No doubt. But we definitely took the search and sort portion as seriously as the turning fight when it came to critique and debrief. The F-16 guys didn't care too much about that. Remember, this was at a time when the F-16 did not have BVR. They wanted to simply get in there and mix it up.

"Real men turned and burned." But deep down, we knew that the future battle would be won pre-merge, and post-merge maneuvering was more mop-up than anything else. And one BIG lesson we were learning... with AIM-9M or better, separating, escaping from a turning fight, was approaching a physical impossibility. It WAS impossible to separate from an aggressive enemy with AIM-7 or AIM-120. You were unable to accelerate quickly enough to kinematically defeat the missile. So to enter a massed turning fight meant very few would survive, and was not a decision taken lightly.

@ NightCrawler: Your position is a common one, but there are presuppositions there. We had previews of air battles against high-quality opposition at places like Red Flag, and AWACS was not always available, nor was there any command & control beyond what we could create among separate flights of four. What we found... the transition from the AIM-9P (stern aspect) to AIM-9L (all-aspect) made the large turning fight almost a death sentence. You could see these swirling towers of merged and turning fighters from vast distanced, and it was a simple matter to poke your nose at it, find a victim, and let rip with an AIM-9L in a matter of seconds. But if you got sucked into one, you were the next victim. The overall concept became one of high speed, short, sharp hooks, get out. Time and time again, we'd hear a guy on the radio "I'm engaged and anchored over the Farms" or similar - he's turning, and cannot separate. We'd try to get him out, and simply add to the mess, and the air over the Farms became "death" for anyone foolish enough to drop an anchor there and start turning.

Without AWACS, against a numerous and proficient enemy, we became our own AWACS, and did so on a number of occasions, with a flight to the rear providing radar intel to those more exposed.

Coordination between flights allowed for the high-speed hit & run. Let's say "Gorilla" flight has swept over a valley, executed good work, and has left behind a number of enemy smoking holes, using high-speed tactics. They are egressing; we are ingressing from the flank. Gorilla flight can provide excellent information... "You've got 6 to 8 MiG-29's SW of the city, headed South. Several Su-27 in a CAP over the power plant." etc. Then we'd sweep in and further attrit.

My point with all this is that the way the game is played has definitely morphed, and it started 20 years ago. We learned that to anchor was death, separation from a turning fight almost impossible, and the all-aspect heat-seeker has made the furrball near suicide. This told us that a search, sort, shoot discipline of iron was required, situational awareness via AWACS or each other (now, datalink) was critical, and you turned only when you absolutely had to.

Super-Maneuverability, as a critical parameter in a fighter, is rapidly dropping on the list. Give me information, acceleration, a very high instantaneous turn rate, and a big stick.

 

[MastanKhan]

Chogy,

Thanks very much for your post---even though I had some inkling of the direction the bvr battle was headed towards---your post gave a confirmation to what I understood---not a 100% the way I was thinking---but at least I was headed 75% in that direction.

To read aboutfirst hand experience is really something else. Thanks again.

 

[Dr sim]

Hi,

Well if they stay on their side----they are already at flight altitude---flying towards pak---and withing bvr of jf 17---they will dominate----but if they are over ak air space---the situation is not as black and white---because air craft would be taking off from different bases where the su 30 may well be within jf 17's sd10 range.

Secondly---the amraams on F 16's would be equally deadly to the su 30's---amraams have better kill ratio than their russian counter parts---.

Now it is not as simple as su 30 taking down a jf 17---what if the jf 17 sees the missile coming but doesnot bug out and keeps flying towards the su 30 and within moments the su 30 is also within the kill zone of the sd10---and makes the launch.

The electronic pakcages on both these planes are going to be pretty sophisticated---telling the pilots of the moment of launch to the time of impact---the other plane's position and when the other planes would be within range----it will again come down to who has bigger ballz---who can stand the heat in the face of an incoming missile.

The worst fear a su 30 driver has is---if he sees some of his friends flying su 30's taken out by the smaller F 16 or the JF 17---that would change the outcome of the air war.

My comments on the jf 17 and sd 10 are for the consumption of the pakistanis---where I am trying to urge them to go for deadlier systems that what they have or what they are getting---push them down harder so that they can come up stronger.

I will guarantee you one thing---if on day one---paf takes down a sqdrn of su 30's in combat and even looses a similiar numbers of f 16's and jf 17's---they have won the air war---they would tear up the psyche of the iaf pilots.

You have to wait till the first 24 hours of the air war to make a judgemental call as to who will rule the sky.

Dear sir, arent u here ignoring the capability of AWACS recently bought by India. I think this system developed by Israel is probably one of the most advanced in the world.if u can see ur enemy before he can see u, it gives u a huge advantage going into any kind of battle.

 

[brahmastra]

@ MK sir,
According to you, what will be the roll of Israeli jammers on Su-30s in BVR combat? Isn't it a game changer?

 

[nicamarvin]

@ MK sir,
According to you, what will be the roll of Israeli jammers on Su-30s in BVR combat? Isn't it a game changer?

not with LPI Radars coming very soon to 5th gen fighters