Proliferation - its history and realities

[TaimiKhan]

So let me get this straight...Pakistani members take great offense at the notion that Pakistani nuclear assets need foreign assistance in their security...But...but...The flamboyant and attention hound AQ Khan pretty much had total or near total control of Pakistani nuclear assets and everyone is fine with that.

he did not had total control of the nuclear weapons, he had control of the procurement and manufacturing process.

Plus, we did not had one single nuclear program, he was running the Uranium side, while the PAEC guys were doing the plutonium side.

And the talk of western arseholes taking over our nukes has started now, when we have a very capable and multi security layered mechanism in place. AQ Khan days were the old ones, not now.

And yeah we do take offense when these arses talk about controlling our nukes, especially when their own proliferation record is stained with countless acts.

Tell, me after the AQ Khan investigation, what has west done to make sure that their own western companies involved in the proliferation business are made to stop, or action taken against them.

So better ask your own countrymen and westerners, get things on your side in order, and don't worry about us, we have taken care of it and are now in control.

And the level of our proliferation is nothing compared to the ones done by the US and its western allies.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

So let me get this straight...Pakistani members take great offense at the notion that Pakistani nuclear assets need foreign assistance in their security...But...but...The flamboyant and attention hound AQ Khan pretty much had total or near total control of Pakistani nuclear assets and everyone is fine with that.

Sir Abdul Qadir (Qadeer) sahib , is founder of our researcher and great contributor , obviously he controled and SHOULD control what ever his heart desires - if it was not for his hard work , we would have been another Iraq - so we are quite grateful that he gave us our nuclear deterrant from ANY person who thinks its ok to intrude our air space and freedom

With control I mean development efforts not the actual detonation codes or other processes - we have other secret mechanisms that noone can decode

Yes thank you I'll prefer the first option of showing respect to our scientist who gave us the tool to protect our freedom

If Manhatten Project scientist were highly regarded , I am sure we can live with Sir Abdul Qadir(Qadeer) Khan - after all he just tried to help under privlidged nations with scientific knowldge which could have been attained easily on internet anyways - these days

Infact I would love to meet him shake his hand and tell him how greatful I am - "Thank you"



There is more harm to world by illegal wars and opressive occupations and supporting illegal concentration camps then any share of technology between allied nations. Knowlege if ... free is should be public domain

 

[niaz]

So let me get this straight...Pakistani members take great offense at the notion that Pakistani nuclear assets need foreign assistance in their security...But...but...The flamboyant and attention hound AQ Khan pretty much had total or near total control of Pakistani nuclear assets and everyone is fine with that.

Hon Sir,

Your statement is incorrect. Building an atomic bomb is a team effort. Dr AQ Khan had the sole charge of manufacturing weapons grade Uranium. This he performed admirably and the whole nation is indebted to him.

However, while having weapons grade uranium is no doubt an essential step; a lot more additional effort is required to convert it into a fission bomb.

This part of the process was directly under the control of Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission headed by Munir Ahmad Khan. There were scores of engineers involved. The project team was called Directorate of Technical Development and headed by Dr Samar Mubarakmand.

Dr AQ Khan is a national hero, but does it mean that we ignore sevices by other very gifted sons of the soil?

FYI Dr Mubarakmand is also the main architect of Pakistan's missile program.

 

[gambit]

he did not had total control of the nuclear weapons, he had control of the procurement and manufacturing process.

I said 'nuclear assets', not weapons. In these discussions, I do try to be careful with words. Anyway...It is absurd to believe that Khan could have either total or near total control of Pakistan's nuclear assets without governmental complicity. Allowance equals to complicity.

Maraging steel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maraging steel production, import, and export by certain states, such as the United States,[2] is closely monitored by international authorities because of their use in gas centrifuges for uranium enrichment.

Certain nuclear technology materials, knowledge and equipments, aka 'nuclear assets', are not for retail sales. Maraging steel sales of any quantity will trigger alert mechanisms, from finance transfers to actual shipping, created by the major nuclear states, and that includes nuclear weapons states. That is why Iraq, under Saddam Hussein, had to purchase black market maraging steel in Europe, and even then, according to Mahdi Obeidi, Saddam's chief nuclear scientist who personally led the deal, the French seller knew exactly what the steel were for, and it was not for the Iraqi Olympics fencing team.

If one man, with governmental complicity, can have either total or near total control of your nuclear assets and do whatever he want with it, one man, with enough armed followers, can take by force control of your nuclear weapons and proliferate them as he sees fit.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

So let me get this straight...Pakistani members take great offense at the notion that Pakistani nuclear assets need foreign assistance in their security...But...but...The flamboyant and attention hound AQ Khan pretty much had total or near total control of Pakistani nuclear assets and everyone is fine with that.

If i am not wrong , DIDnt the american scientists gaved the soviets the nuclear tech ...?? and they were later sentenced to death also..

 

[Hellfire]

And in Pakistan's case the evidence still indicates that attempted proliferation to Iran and Libya was done by the AQ Khan network, and not by the State,

AM

Very strange this coming from you
are you implying that AQK was not under ISI/MI observation? and that his activities were not under scrutiny given the sensitivity of his position in the Pakistani Nuclear Program? You must be joking if that be the case, right?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I said 'nuclear assets', not weapons. In these discussions, I do try to be careful with words. Anyway...It is absurd to believe that Khan could have either total or near total control of Pakistan's nuclear assets without governmental complicity. Allowance equals to complicity.

Maraging steel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Certain nuclear technology materials, knowledge and equipments, aka 'nuclear assets', are not for retail sales. Maraging steel sales of any quantity will trigger alert mechanisms, from finance transfers to actual shipping, created by the major nuclear states, and that includes nuclear weapons states. That is why Iraq, under Saddam Hussein, had to purchase black market maraging steel in Europe, and even then, according to Mahdi Obeidi, Saddam's chief nuclear scientist who personally led the deal, the French seller knew exactly what the steel were for, and it was not for the Iraqi Olympics fencing team.

If one man, with governmental complicity, can have either total or near total control of your nuclear assets and do whatever he want with it, one man, with enough armed followers, can take by force control of your nuclear weapons and proliferate them as he sees fit.

Much of AQ Khan's clandestine network involved procurement of technology and components from Western nations - if 'allowance' equals complicity, what does that say about the controls in place in Western nations from where he sourced that technology?

Second, the Pakistani State did take action after the extent of outward proliferation by AQ Khan was brought to its attention. The network in Pakistan was dismantled by removing AQ Khan from his position in the nuclear program, and by arresting key individuals in Pakistan associated with the network.

In addition, with cooperation from the US, extensive command and control systems and processes were put in place that have been detailed in another thread in this section. So post the C&C establishment period, concerns of 'one man with enough armed followers gaining possession of sensitive material and technology' are unfounded.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AM

Very strange this coming from you
are you implying that AQK was not under ISI/MI observation? and that his activities were not under scrutiny given the sensitivity of his position in the Pakistani Nuclear Program? You must be joking if that be the case, right?

The book by Gordon Corera on the AQ Khan network raises this question in interviews with high level PA officers in control at the time. And, IIRC, Correra writes that the ISI did in fact raise concerns over some of AQ Khan's activities, but they were not taken seriously. Probably because Khan had delivered, and was continuing to deliver on the main task he was assigned. It would not be the first time in the world that has happened, that assessments from an intel agency were dismissed by those incharge.

From Gordon Corera's book, Shopping for Bombs: Nuclear Proliferation, Global Insecurity, and the Rise and Fall of the A.Q. Khan Network:

"One crucial question is how Khan was able to transfer centrifuges on military planes. The planes were chartered through official channels in the defense procurement agency in Pakistan's defense ministry. The rationale was that, as well as cooperation over the Ghauri, KRL was involved in major conventional arms deals with NK, which at one point was Pakistan's major supplier of weaponry. This gave Khan the freedom to go back and forth and it is not clear that pilots or other officials linked with transport would necessarily recognize a centrifuge as distinct from say, a missile part. There was never any accountability or records over the movement of weapons and material in and out of Pakistan, a product of fighting covert wars in the 1980's in Afghanistan and in the late 1990's in Kashmir as well as well as running a clandestine procurement program. Covert activity had become an integral part of the Pakistani state and meant the Khan could go about his business with minimal oversight, whether acting on his own or not.

KRL was subject to tight security but Pakistani officials state that this does not mean they knew what Khan was up to. The security was oriented towards shielding the lab and its scientitsts from external threats rather than keeping check on their activities. From the beginning, the whole rationale of security was to protect the program from the web of international non-proliferation controls, to ensure that external procurement networks went undetected by foreign intelligence agencies and that knowledge of them was restricted to those who needed to know. "The idea was to protect the national laboratories and national strategic organizations from all external threats, " says Feroz Khan who was involved in that security. "The key purpose was to provide them the space they needed to work rather than control them. They were not in anybody's oversight ... They were not seeing what packages were going and what was inside the packages."

The same was true of the budgetary and financial aspects of KRL's work - their aim was to facilitate, not to check up on Khan's activity. Military officials were assigned to run his security detail amid fears that he might be kidnapped by a foreign intelligence agency to reveal Pakistan's secrets. But the security officers at KRL were actually paid by Khan himself not by the government. They were often retired officers or officers approaching the end of their career whose loyalty could be pliable. Military figures inevitably have claimed that this autonomy explains why Khan could have sold material without any state knowledge. "The Pakistan army, if they deputized a person to be responsible at the site about the security of the project or program, they were made responsible to the boss, that is Khan," argues General Beg. "They were not responsible to the Army chief - not before me, not after me, or to another army chief. They reported directly to the KRL and its directer, Khan. And it has come out that they were getting paid by him. So the army as such was involved in decision making policy - but not directly responsible for all that was happening within the Kahuta lab." The head of security at KRL Brigade General Mohammed Iqbal Tajwar was amongst Khan's closest confidants, traveling with him on his shopping and selling trips. Tajwar was one of those detained in late 2003 when Pakistan finally acted against Khan. he told interrogators that he had no idea what was going on.

BTW, the book is a fascinating one, and directly quotes high level PA and GoP officials extensively.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

Now this is specifically why US cannot put any sanctions or Embargoes on Pakistan any more , because there will always be a risk that Pakistan might not become the playground for the underground Nuclear Proliferation Mafia which involves many orgs .. The only option to teach Pakistan a lesson is to support and strengthen its enemies ..rit..

US is an awesome Nation , but i seriously hate the way these yanks neglect the Pakistani concerns while making deals with India , Like the US changed its own laws for transferring Civil Nuclear tech to India .. !

 

[Hellfire]

AM

While it is fair that the primary concern would have been to ensure that protection of the material and personnel against external threats had to be ensured, it is impossible to assume that the ISI/MI would not have at the same time kept AQK under observation for any acts of subversion resulting in a compromise of the national effort towards acquisition of Nuclear Tech & know how for weapons design (its not RAW we are dealing here with).

The issue is what Pakistan could offer NK in return for the Missile Tech, and the logical answer is there for all. It is safe to assume that while no official blessings were given to AQK for transfer of the said tech, GoP was not totally unaware at the time of his doings and indeed had granted a tacit approval for the same albeit unofficially. Obviously the amount of personnel in the loop to the whole issue would have been too few and its highly unlikely that the author was given free access to the real brains of the whole show.

 

[Chanakyaa]

Now this is specifically why US cannot put any sanctions or Embargoes on Pakistan any more , because there will always be a risk that Pakistan might not become the playground for the underground Nuclear Proliferation Mafia which involves many orgs .. The only option to teach Pakistan a lesson is to support and strengthen its enemies ..rit..

US is an awesome Nation , but i seriously hate the way these yanks neglect the Pakistani concerns while making deals with India , Like the US changed its own laws for transferring Civil Nuclear tech to India .. !

In the longer run, if nukes do get in the hands of Terrorists, mate what is the assurance that they cannot be Detonated in Pakistan where each months Two or Three Blasts are a routine ?

I dont think its a matter of pride that ur nation is a nuclear black market.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AM

While it is fair that the primary concern would have been to ensure that protection of the material and personnel against external threats had to be ensured, it is impossible to assume that the ISI/MI would not have at the same time kept AQK under observation for any acts of subversion resulting in a compromise of the national effort towards acquisition of Nuclear Tech & know how for weapons design (its not RAW we are dealing here with).

I did mention in my last post the Corera writes about the ISI forwarding some concerns about AQ Khan that were ignored, which is not something that unusual.

but even if the ISI was supposed to keep an eye on the kind of technology being moved, how would they do that? Obviously through a 'nuclear scientist'. Who should be chosen to be such a scientist, whose loyalty is beyond doubt? How about the guy who was instrumental in delivering key nuclear technology to Pakistan? How about the guy who was responsible for setting up the network in the first place?

Well that would be AQ Khan of course.

AQ Khan was not running a network established by the ISI/PA - this WAS his network. The GoP/PA merely provided the logistical support. These were his contacts, his networks and his plans.

Without AQ Khan, this network would not exist in the form it did, so why would you suspect the guy who played such a key part, or use up resources to monitor Khan for subversion, when without Khan there would be no clandestine network or KRL to subvert?

The issue is what Pakistan could offer NK in return for the Missile Tech, and the logical answer is there for all. It is safe to assume that while no official blessings were given to AQK for transfer of the said tech, GoP was not totally unaware at the time of his doings and indeed had granted a tacit approval for the same albeit unofficially. Obviously the amount of personnel in the loop to the whole issue would have been too few and its highly unlikely that the author was given free access to the real brains of the whole show.

This is a speculative argument on your part. Remember that Pakistan had a second team working on both missile and bomb designs. The second team was the one that came up with the more advanced solid fueled Shaheen series, and Pakistan already had shorter range ballistic missiles. So there was no need to take a risk as large as trading nuclear technology for less advanced missile technology from NK.

 

[Hellfire]

AM

Yea I agree to your POVs. And somehow I missed that part of ISI's concerns being ignored. Apologies for the same.

But irrespective of what may have actually happened, I am full of respect for the gentleman who had the guts to do whatever necessary and howsoever that too to achieve what he did for his nation!

Thanks