Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[MIRauf]

You are worried about that when all our F-16s have been flying the US engines as well as countless other platforms? I would be more worried about Russian sanctioning parts down the road instead. Here you want already have the entire JF-17 fleet with Russian engines and now some of you are proposing we put all our eggs in the same basket again. Imagine the leverage that gives them over PAF.
That would be unforgiveable. I rather not worry about US buying RR or whatever. The Brits have their own assets/tech to safeguard vs the Americans. Pakistan needs to diversify away from Russian engines for its own sake and if Chinese are not there yet and Americans are unwilling, then we need a European options.

Nothing stays static in the domain of international politics and deal making. Musharaf was a dictator ... times have changed in Pakistan since then with consecutive "democratic" governments. Pakistan will need to play the game to its benefit

Only Difference is that Ruskies will Sanction you during the war time, UNCLE SAM will do it to make you do the bidding or at times just for the amusement ( aka subtle reminder of how things need to be or could be. )

Brits will cave into US pressure, Ruskies won't. That is one of the biggest advantage.

PS: "Sorry, I didn't mean to write a thesis on this, I just couldn't pen it all down in Click Notes."

-- .. .-.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Only Difference is that Ruskies will Sanction you during the war time, UNCLE SAM will do it to make you do the bidding or at times just for the amusement ( aka subtle reminder of how things need to be or could be. )

Brits will cave into US pressure, Ruskies won't. That is one of the biggest advantage.

PS: "Sorry, I didn't mean to write a thesis on this, I just couldn't pen it all down in Click Notes."

-- .. .-.

I'm not sure we can count on that only to find out they can sanction us at anytime as well. Even the threat of sanctions which could impact nearly the entire future fleet of PAF could be enough for us to respond one way vs another. I don't think it's a good idea at all and we need more diversification.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

What are the prospects of the FGFA powered by 2 x RD93/RD93MA similarly to how J31 is powered?

We might simply not make the new platform that much into a heavyweight and design it around the current engines which we are have experience in use, maintenance, are fairly secured and can be replaced by WS series once those get matured enough.

We can tweak the engines albeit at the cost of engine life but it just might be worth it to get better performance.

The jet is designed based on our requirements but it doesn't mean it can't be similar to J31 and TFX; infact, I believe it will be take inputs based on multiple 5 Gen programs already ongoing and many of which are already operational.

It depends on the PAF's ASR.

I think twin RD-93MAs would put this fighter in the same weight category as the FC-31 and KFX.

However, if the PAF wants twin WS-10-type engines, the weight class would go up to TFX and J-20-class.

So, it'll depend on the PAF's target payload and range.

Personally, I think the PAF wants to get a TFX or J-20-class fighter so that it can extend its offensive capability (especially with SOWs and ALCMs). However, a smaller design similar to the FC-31 could still get the job done for the PAF. It could also be an optimal way if the PAF wants to move to a one manned platform-fleet (plus UCAVs).

 

[Ali_Baba]

Current inventory is close to this....

49 JF-17A Block 1
60 JF-17A Block 2
26 JF-17B Block 2
50 JF-17A Block 3 on order
After block 3, PAF will order 50 Block 4.

There is NO Block 4. Block III will be the most mature variant, and PAF resources are now switching over to Azm.

 

[MastanKhan]

i dont see any block 4 jf-17 is not f-16 sir

Hi,

JF17 will have BLK 4's & BLK 5's as well.

Just wait and see---.

You are worried about that when all our F-16s have been flying the US engines as well as countless other platforms? I would be more worried about Russian sanctioning parts down the road instead. Here you want already have the entire JF-17 fleet with Russian engines and now some of you are proposing we put all our eggs in the same basket again. Imagine the leverage that gives them over PAF.
That would be unforgiveable. I rather not worry about US buying RR or whatever. The Brits have their own assets/tech to safeguard vs the Americans. Pakistan needs to diversify away from Russian engines for its own sake and if Chinese are not there yet and Americans are unwilling, then we need a European options.

Nothing stays static in the domain of international politics and deal making. Musharaf was a dictator ... times have changed in Pakistan since then with consecutive "democratic" governments. Pakistan will need to play the game to its benefit

Hi,

The US has preferential dealings with dictators rather than civilians.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Hi,

The US has preferential dealings with dictators rather than civilians.

Hence I'm suggesting dealing with UK and not the US. We need risk assessment and having your entire fleet powered by Russian engines is a huge operational risk

 

[Readerdefence]

Only Difference is that Ruskies will Sanction you during the war time, UNCLE SAM will do it to make you do the bidding or at times just for the amusement ( aka subtle reminder of how things need to be or could be. )

Brits will cave into US pressure, Ruskies won't. That is one of the biggest advantage.

PS: "Sorry, I didn't mean to write a thesis on this, I just couldn't pen it all down in Click Notes."

-- .. .-.

Hi sir I beg to differ on the point of Russian sanctions as we should keep one thing in mind deal of jf17 engines are not directly between Pakistan and Russian beside that Russian doesn’t want to tarnish their image in front of China who was the middle man between the two beside that Russia is exporting a whole lot of things to China in terms of arms /etc won’t do that
as I have mentioned earlier on this forum ASAP if Pakistan can involve Russians in laying gas oil pipe lines between Karachi. And upcountry Russians will also be in the game of pak China corridor and their stakes will be high then in lieu of that ventures
your further input will be appreciated
thank you

 

[jupiter2007]

There is NO Block 4. Block III will be the most mature variant, and PAF resources are now switching over to Azm.

Baba Sahib, Even if PAF want to divert resources toward AZM project, PAF wont' stop the JF-17 production as long as foreign countries (Tunisia, Algeria, Moroccan, Ethiopia and Angola) are still interested in the platform.

 

[MIRauf]

Hi sir I beg to differ on the point of Russian sanctions as we should keep one thing in mind deal of jf17 engines are not directly between Pakistan and Russian beside that Russian doesn’t want to tarnish their image in front of China who was the middle man between the two beside that Russia is exporting a whole lot of things to China in terms of arms /etc won’t do that
as I have mentioned earlier on this forum ASAP if Pakistan can involve Russians in laying gas oil pipe lines between Karachi. And upcountry Russians will also be in the game of pak China corridor and their stakes will be high then in lieu of that ventures
your further input will be appreciated
thank you

My understanding was / is that PAC is now directly dealing with Russians / Klimov at this point.

PS: "Sorry, I didn't mean to write a thesis on this, I just couldn't pen it all down in Click Notes."

-- .. .-.

 

[jupiter2007]

@

 

[SQ8]

It depends on the PAF's ASR.

I think twin RD-93MAs would put this fighter in the same weight category as the FC-31 and KFX.

However, if the PAF wants twin WS-10-type engines, the weight class would go up to TFX and J-20-class.

So, it'll depend on the PAF's target payload and range.

Personally, I think the PAF wants to get a TFX or J-20-class fighter so that it can extend its offensive capability (especially with SOWs and ALCMs). However, a smaller design similar to the FC-31 could still get the job done for the PAF. It could also be an optimal way if the PAF wants to move to a one manned platform-fleet (plus UCAVs).

That is where the initial prototype may end up - it is also the lowest risk option in terms of logistics and familiarity.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

really ? wow its means thunders are here next 40 years

What AVM (Retd) Shahid Latif said is something like that a new block has to come out for JF-17 Thunder every 5-7 years because technology has changed and advanced so much in those 5-7 years that the avionics, electronics have to be upgraded. They built the JF-17 Thunder program with this very strong concept from the get go.

He explains that first Pakistani F-16 pilots were training on F-16 Block-5s. but the aircraft that were initially delivered to PAF were F-16 Block-15s.

 

[Trango Towers]

The core design of Azm will all depend on the engine selected. Pakistan doesn't have the luxury of an established industrial base to design and manufacture an engine specifically for Azm, in contrast to say the historical approach of the US or Russia who layed down the specs of their fighter development programmes and left it to engines designers to develop appropriate powerplants. The Chinese have had to build a similar capability over a number of decades. For countries like Turkey and Pakistan, the design specs of their fighter programmes are essentially tied to whatever powerplant they can secure. The same approach was used for JF-17, it was essentially designed around a single Klimov RD-33/93 series of engine using the Mig project 33 as a basis. For project Azm, the first decision to be taken before any detailed design work is done will be the engine...which clearly already has been decided upon.

So what engine has been decided. Please enlighten us

Current inventory is close to this....

49 JF-17A Block 1
60 JF-17A Block 2
26 JF-17B Block 2
50 JF-17A Block 3 on order
After block 3, PAF will order 50 Block 4.

Looool you know exactly aptly the future..
I can't belive what people are writing from engine choice to time frame to quantity.

Can you tell me how many wives I will have

 

[White and Green with M/S]

So what engine has been decided. Please enlighten us

AZM will medium weight stealth jet, so its at least need high class thrust engine like P&W F-100-132 or latest WS-10C or AL-41F1 engine

 

[Readerdefence]

My understanding was / is that PAC is now directly dealing with Russians / Klimov at this point.

PS: "Sorry, I didn't mean to write a thesis on this, I just couldn't pen it all down in Click Notes."

-- .. .-.

Hi thanks for your input sir as per my knowledge PaF got initially 500 odd engines in the beginning of the JF17 project so fingers crossed hopefully russsian won’t be ditching Pakistan in this project
thank you for your input