Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[volatile]

But - at least by my knowledge - wan't this a pure Sino-US-cooperation on the Sabre II before the embargo?

PAF was partner @ many seniour members at that time pointed our PAF inspiration was always F20 Tiger shark aircraft as supplement to F16 with lower cost of operations there is a reason JF17 is also F20 in many ways

Northrop F-20 Tigershark - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Assessment | JF-17 Thunder, a 21st century F-20 Tigershark ?

Took me 3 hours to put this together, hoping that you folks would like and appreciate my effort. Hopefully we could have a reasonable debate on this topic starting with my comparison. Both jets share a similar design philosophy, design features, operational doctrine and operational roles...

defence.pk

Project was to be completed by 1995 but due to pressler amendment AKA financial strap PAF it was competed 10 years later Mig 33

 

[Deino]

PAF was partner @ many seniour members at that time pointed our PAF inspiration was always F20 Tiger shark aircraft as supplement to F16 with lower cost of operations there is a reason JF17 is also F20 in many ways

Northrop F-20 Tigershark - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

View attachment 670314

Assessment | JF-17 Thunder, a 21st century F-20 Tigershark ?

Took me 3 hours to put this together, hoping that you folks would like and appreciate my effort. Hopefully we could have a reasonable debate on this topic starting with my comparison. Both jets share a similar design philosophy, design features, operational doctrine and operational roles...

defence.pk

Project was to be completed by 1995 but due to pressler amendment AKA financial strap PAF it was competed 10 years later Mig 33
View attachment 670315

You are not truly quoting Wiki? ... my point is, when entered Pakistan the Sabre II or later Super 7 project and when left Northrop (1989)? Thsi is the first question, and to even conclude there were still contacts on the YF-23 between Pakistan and NG later on is IMO not a valid coclusion.

 

[volatile]

You are not truly quoting Wiki? ... my point is, when entered Pakistan the Sabre II or later Super 7 project and when left Northrop (1989)? Thsi is the first question, and to even conclude there were still contacts on the YF-23 between Pakistan and NG later on is IMO not a valid coclusion.

Forgive me for quotin wiki here is the link
"Grumman to upgrade Chinese F-7Ms", Flight Internationalmagazine, published 26 November 1988, URL: https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1988/1988 - 3360.html

JF-17 Thunder – the First Squadron Enters Pakistan Air Force

Pakistan have had a long history of being denied essentials for its armed forces whenever the time demanded. Even its once most trusted ...

www.jahojalal.com

so evidence is here and considering US/Pak relationship i will not go on paper .Its just a guess even after 25 years US does de classified many technologies .I mean its not a bad move to incorporate Northrop design

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

Turkey had signed a MOU with BAE for a next gen variant of the EJ-200 for it's new stealth fighter. Seems Turkey is now without a jet engine too as BAE has pulled out. This means Pakistan will not take the chance with BAE for such a crucial component too.

Rolls-Royce dials back on project to build new Turkish fighter jet

Erdogan-backed scheme hit issues over intellectual property

www.ft.com

Turkey had signed a MOU with the BAE for aircraft development and progress. We signed an agreement with Rolls Royce, not the BAE, for the engine and the conceptual design continues with Kale - PW - TrMotor - Rolls Royce.

 

[Invicta]

The PAF will generally keep its doors open to the West, especially if it's looking to export the fighter. Ironic, but there are countries that will be happy to choke on ITAR and other restrictions if it delivers a 'Western' fighter. That said, I don't think the PAF itself would rely on the EJ200; I can see the UK/Germany saying, 'please don't use this for your strategic/nuclear deployments!'

I don't think the Germans or us (UK) are in position to lecture anyone what to do with their weapons. Whilst the political mouthpieces might spew lines to that effect the reality is that no one buys a platform with strings attached. Specially a platform that costs as much as a EF2000 does. Even if they were to just go for EJ200 point still remains. UK needs trade and partners especially at this time and this is probably something that can be achieved if the intent is there by PAF and Pak Government.

I for one long to see EF2000 in PAF colours, this fighter is the perfect answer to PAF on the Karachi front. 2 squadrons for defence of maritime zone and interest and any IN plans for a Rafael on their aircraft carriers is a moot point.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

If you allow me .PAF and Northrop corporation has links stretched at least into 3 decades .e.g JF17 thunder has many design inputs from Northrop under project Sabre
In January 1987, the Pakistan Air Force commissioned New York-based Grumman Aerospace to conduct studies and assess the feasibility of the Sabre II design concept with Pakistani specialists and the Chinese Chengdu Aircraft corporation

Project Sabre II - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sabre-II was cancelled and has nothing to do with JF-17 Thunder.

In the 1980s, Pakistan and the US were allies against the USSR and there was no harm in PAF partnering with Northrop.

Times have changed significantly.

Today, the US refuses to deliver the AH-1Zs and sell further F-16s to Pakistan and you think there's a possibility they're going to help Pakistan design the Next Generation Fighter Aircraft?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I don't think the Germans or us (UK) are in position to lecture anyone what to do with their weapons. Whilst the political mouthpieces might spew lines to that effect the reality is that no one buys a platform with strings attached. Specially a platform that costs as much as a EF2000 does. Even if they were to just go for EJ200 point still remains. UK needs trade and partners especially at this time and this is probably something that can be achieved if the intent is there by PAF and Pak Government.

I for one long to see EF2000 in PAF colours, this fighter is the perfect answer to PAF on the Karachi front. 2 squadrons for defence of maritime zone and interest and any IN plans for a Rafael on their aircraft carriers is a moot point.

For as long as Pakistan is under the FATF's spotlight, it won't be able to move the necessary financing or credit to fund a Typhoon purchase. The other constraint is France's probable unwillingness to permit a MBDA Meteor AAM sale to Pakistan. Otherwise, 24 Typhoons with Meteor AAMs and 75 F-16s would be a solid 'edge' (especially with 150-200 JF-17s in the background to carry most defensive duties).

But if we had that kind of cash available, I'd look for ways to guarantee our supply chain.

In other words, I'd see if we can get a good engine developed in Ukraine, and enter into a deep co-production and co-IP-ownership deal. I know they're iffy about giving ToT, but I'd exchange the R&D/IP we'd develop from AZM for their engines.

Sure, it isn't 100% equivalent, they may give up more, but I think more forthrightness on our end (e.g., sharing profits of 3rd party sales, helping them rebuild their air force, etc) would count.

 

[Invicta]

For as long as Pakistan is under the FATF's spotlight, it won't be able to move the necessary financing or credit to fund a Typhoon purchase. The other constraint is France's probable unwillingness to permit a MBDA Meteor AAM sale to Pakistan. Otherwise, 24 Typhoons with Meteor AAMs and 75 F-16s would be a solid 'edge' (especially with 150-200 JF-17s in the background to carry most defensive duties).

.

I know FATF has been the real culprit for most things to do with procurement. France might play the Rafael card but knowing that UK/Germany can make money in such a sale France would be in a corner against these two afterall Meteor was a joint venture, not entirely sure if any party had major say but looking at finances UK contribution during R&D was the largest so by default if UK government were not shy of making a deal I don't see how France could block it.

Then again if PL-15 and next AMRAAM specs are anything to go by Meteor will be just another missile.

 

[Invicta]

For as long as Pakistan is under the FATF's spotlight, it won't be able to move the necessary financing or credit to fund a Typhoon purchase. The other constraint is France's probable unwillingness to permit a MBDA Meteor AAM sale to Pakistan. Otherwise, 24 Typhoons with Meteor AAMs and 75 F-16s would be a solid 'edge' (especially with 150-200 JF-17s in the background to carry most defensive duties).

But if we had that kind of cash available, I'd look for ways to guarantee our supply chain.

In other words, I'd see if we can get a good engine developed in Ukraine, and enter into a deep co-production and co-IP-ownership deal. I know they're iffy about giving ToT, but I'd exchange the R&D/IP we'd develop from AZM for their engines.

Sure, it isn't 100% equivalent, they may give up more, but I think more forthrightness on our end (e.g., sharing profits of 3rd party sales, helping them rebuild their air force, etc) would count.

Pakistan has a lot to gain from joint ventures, the amount of Pakistani Engineers etc I come across here makes me wonder what if one day they all decide to pack their bags and go back to Pakistan they will transform the country.

With labour being so expensive in EU/UK Pakistan needs to expand their private sector and push them to gain manufacturing contracts with BAE, RR etc. You have to make a start somewhere - initially it could be just a wing or turbine blades but over time the industry will absorb and start their own products.

Ukraine is a great start specially for Tank diesels etc.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

As far as I know, except Turkey, in India was improve relations with Rolls Royce engines for the AMCA. Can't the PAC (or anyone in charge) follow the same strategy? There are many Pakistanis in the UK.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

For as long as Pakistan is under the FATF's spotlight, it won't be able to move the necessary financing or credit to fund a Typhoon purchase. The other constraint is France's probable unwillingness to permit a MBDA Meteor AAM sale to Pakistan. Otherwise, 24 Typhoons with Meteor AAMs and 75 F-16s would be a solid 'edge' (especially with 150-200 JF-17s in the background to carry most defensive duties).

But if we had that kind of cash available, I'd look for ways to guarantee our supply chain.

In other words, I'd see if we can get a good engine developed in Ukraine, and enter into a deep co-production and co-IP-ownership deal. I know they're iffy about giving ToT, but I'd exchange the R&D/IP we'd develop from AZM for their engines.

Sure, it isn't 100% equivalent, they may give up more, but I think more forthrightness on our end (e.g., sharing profits of 3rd party sales, helping them rebuild their air force, etc) would count.

TEI CEO stated that they went to Ukraine years ago in the process of developing turbine blades and could not get support. IP right, TOT etc. conditions are clogged in turbine engines.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

TEI CEO stated that they went to Ukraine years ago in the process of developing turbine blades and could not get support. IP right, TOT etc. conditions are clogged in turbine engines.

I suspect the Ukrainians wanted a lot more control/benefits from the arrangement. One of the key strategic concerns Ukraine has is that no one's helping it with regards to Russia.

Either we generally lack the courage, or have tied into Russia ourselves. With Ukraine, every little thing they have is life-and-death for them, so we have to give them that respect to get any in-roads.

But if we go too far in helping them, Uncle Sam and Boris will knock on our doors and threaten us to to stop -- like a protection racket. I think only China was willing to go that far for Ukraine (by setting-up a jointly-owned business with Motor Sich).

 

[PeacefulWar]

But if we go too far in helping them, Uncle Sam and Boris will knock on our doors and threaten us to to stop -- like a protection racket. I think only China was willing to go that far for Ukraine (by setting-up a jointly-owned business with Motor Sich).

Why USA and UK will do that?
Ain't Ukraine in their side?

 

[Falcon26]

For as long as Pakistan is under the FATF's spotlight, it won't be able to move the necessary financing or credit to fund a Typhoon purchase. The other constraint is France's probable unwillingness to permit a MBDA Meteor AAM sale to Pakistan. Otherwise, 24 Typhoons with Meteor AAMs and 75 F-16s would be a solid 'edge' (especially with 150-200 JF-17s in the background to carry most defensive duties).

But if we had that kind of cash available, I'd look for ways to guarantee our supply chain.

In other words, I'd see if we can get a good engine developed in Ukraine, and enter into a deep co-production and co-IP-ownership deal. I know they're iffy about giving ToT, but I'd exchange the R&D/IP we'd develop from AZM for their engines.

Sure, it isn't 100% equivalent, they may give up more, but I think more forthrightness on our end (e.g., sharing profits of 3rd party sales, helping them rebuild their air force, etc) would count.

Does Ukraine has the capability of building new generation engines for stealth fighters?

 

[Figaro]

Does Ukraine has the capability of building new generation engines for stealth fighters?

Definitely not. Their engine technology is mainly geared towards very low thrust engines, such as the AL-222, for light training aircraft. They also have a very high thrust but obsolete engine, the D-18T, which powers the AN-225, but only has T/W of over 5 and is a high bypass ratio engine anyway.