Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[JamD]

If you ask me, Let a Turkish Defence conglomerate buy up 49% stake in PAC Which they wanted to do way back in 14-15.

Wow. I can't believe we would let that opportunity go.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Wow. I can't believe we would let that opportunity go.

Yep. I reckon if we just ask, there'd be no shortage of Turkish, Chinese, or even European companies willing to buy up unused capacity at HIT, POF, etc. This isn't a novel model. Rather, it's a tried-and-true strategy that worked out for the Turks and Indians.

 

[Figaro]

We dont really know what the Chinese can do TBH, they are very secretive about their stuff. We do know the Turks are good with things such as avionics and electronics. The main reason id be pro Turkey would be their willingness to sell things such as IP to their products, in turn, this would help us develop our own industry, China did a similar thing, just, uh, without permission of the IP holders lol. If Pakistan could get the IP to critical inputs such as seeker design for missiles or something, it could greatly help and speed up development of our own industry.

Is Turkey more willing to transfer technology than the Chinese wrt Pakistan?

 

[Akh1112]

Is Turkey more willing to transfer technology than the Chinese wrt Pakistan?

From what we can see, its less a matter of willingness to transfer the tech but more to transfer the IP. ATM, im sure we could get ToT from both sides, however, the Turks are dying for arms deals, Pakistan can grab IP rights from Turkey to effectively do whatever we want with the platforms since we would own the design whereas with China we wouldn't. For example, look at Ada v 039B, for the Ada class, we secured the IP, based off of this we can infer the PN wants to be able to produce more of these vessels, however the most important thing that came with this was freedom to do whatever we wanted to with the design, we took a corvette and are supposedly turning it into a very capable modern frigate, in act, its almost like a whole new ship capabilities wise. Compare this with the 039B SSK, we have the production license for, we also get ToT but we dont get nearly as much freedom with them like we do with the Ada class, we can produce whatever the amount agreed was, we dont get to do much beyond that. Now compare this with the Agosta class who we have a license that allows us to produce and export as we please, now this does allow us more freedoms, including modifications, still not as much as owning the IP would.

 

[Syed1.]

Ok seems we have established that Pakistan does not have the requisite capabilities for the following:

• Flight control systems
• Engine
• Avionics
• Landing gear
• Advanced weapons

It seems we can do something regarding the following, haath paon maar ke with a whole lot of jugaar

• Airframe
• Radar
• Fuel handling system?
• Sensor fusion?
• Lights

I see a lot of gaps and possible the gap is far too big to be covered. What's worse is that we aren't even getting a sense of direction. That is what eventually leads to project failure. It would suck if we muck around for half a decade and then realize we have bitten more than what we can chew and then approach China/Turkey for a joint venture, who might be unable or unwilling to join such a venture at that point.


These sort of decisions are taken right at the beginning of the project not when you are already 3-4 years into it.

 

[JamD]

Azm is a very apt name. It's an Azm. Understand what you will of that lol.

 

[Akh1112]

Ok seems we have established that Pakistan does not have the requisite capabilities for the following:

• Flight control systems
• Engine
• Avionics
• Landing gear
• Advanced weapons

It seems we can do something regarding the following, haath paon maar ke with a whole lot of jugaar

• Airframe
• Radar
• Fuel handling system?
• Sensor fusion?
• Lights

I see a lot of gaps and possible the gap is far too big to be covered. What's worse is that we aren't even getting a sense of direction. That is what eventually leads to project failure. It would suck if we muck around for half a decade and then realize we have bitten more than what we can chew and then approach China/Turkey for a joint venture, who might be unable or unwilling to join such a venture at that point.


These sort of decisions are taken right at the beginning of the project not when you are already 3-4 years into it.

Thing is, we could or we could just JV again and work with someone who does have experience in critical tech such as FCS (China ). Get them to work on the FCS, IMO, PAC could work on the rest however it will take a significant amount of time and research and most importantly, money. We are seeing PAC working on critical technologies in house such as Airborne AESA (we have credible information for this), PAC does also have some form of experience with design and manufacture of air frames (via MRF, JF-17 and perhaps the MALE UAV) however the type of stealth coating could be an issue as we do not have the capabilities to be able to make the stealth coating a part of the composite air frame (baked in fibre mat). We also ATM do not have the ability to work on composites for airframes. However, one of our closest allies, Turkey does, TAI produced composite airframe components for the F-35 so we could turn to them for them to assist PAC with this venture, we could also outsource this to TAI in Pakistan and get them to open up a production facility, for example, like BAE has in the USA or something. This wouldn't even be too hard to achieve since it opens the doors for TAI involvement in future programs and also is beneficial for the economy, not to forget, it also wouldn't be a small task so i wouldn't imagine TAI would have any objections. I think PAC has experience designing fuel systems from the MRF, i guess we could also rope in the South African's for this if need be. For the Engine and Gear, once again, the Chinese could be of great benefit here, we have those new SEZ's as a part of OBOR for the design of a NGFA, forget that, we could use them as a means of roping in Chinese experts to play a part in a FGFA as opposed to being fully reliant on them. Heck, if we wanted to, for avionics and missiles we could pull in Leonardo to for EOTS and IFF alongside other critical equipment like a defensive suite kinda like the Praterion DASS or whatever. Pull in MBDA or Tubitak or someone for weapons. What im trying to show is that if the PAF decided they needed something ASAP but didnt want an off the shelf solution, there is also another option along the lines of what i have detailed, this is not even far out there, all of these companies are willing to work with us, we just have to be the bridge on getting them to work together.

 

[Pappa Alpha]

Just go with J-31/35 if it is good enough. No need for complications.

 

[StormBreaker]

Ok seems we have established that Pakistan does not have the requisite capabilities for the following:

• Flight control systems
• Engine
• Avionics
• Landing gear
• Advanced weapons

It seems we can do something regarding the following, haath paon maar ke with a whole lot of jugaar

• Airframe
• Radar
• Fuel handling system?
• Sensor fusion?
• Lights

I see a lot of gaps and possible the gap is far too big to be covered. What's worse is that we aren't even getting a sense of direction. That is what eventually leads to project failure. It would suck if we muck around for half a decade and then realize we have bitten more than what we can chew and then approach China/Turkey for a joint venture, who might be unable or unwilling to join such a venture at that point.


These sort of decisions are taken right at the beginning of the project not when you are already 3-4 years into it.

Bro,
From your list of “No requisite“,
Cancel out avionics, FCS, Advanced weapons.

Although I would agree in a sense that We still need a base hardware on which to further work and upgrade, To use and produce in our name.

Only Engines and many avionics are where we currently fall short.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Ok seems we have established that Pakistan does not have the requisite capabilities for the following:

• Flight control systems
• Engine
• Avionics
• Landing gear
• Advanced weapons

It seems we can do something regarding the following, haath paon maar ke with a whole lot of jugaar

• Airframe
• Radar
• Fuel handling system?
• Sensor fusion?
• Lights

I see a lot of gaps and possible the gap is far too big to be covered. What's worse is that we aren't even getting a sense of direction. That is what eventually leads to project failure. It would suck if we muck around for half a decade and then realize we have bitten more than what we can chew and then approach China/Turkey for a joint venture, who might be unable or unwilling to join such a venture at that point.


These sort of decisions are taken right at the beginning of the project not when you are already 3-4 years into it.

If you want to hear about jugaar...

In the 1980s, the South Africans tried developing their own 4+ gen fighter.

It was supposed to be a single-engine fighter.

But they couldn't get the M53 or F100 engine, so what did they do?

They decided to go for a twin-engine design.

Why?

Because they could at least fit tuned-up ATAR 9K turbojet engines to it (until they develop or secure a 80-90 kN class turbofan). But it doesn't change the fact that their next-gen fighter was to use Mirage F-1 or Cheetah engines.

That is jugaar.

 

[Syed1.]

If you want to hear about jugaar...

In the 1980s, the South Africans tried developing their own 4+ gen fighter.

It was supposed to be a single-engine fighter.

But they couldn't get the M53 or F100 engine, so what did they do?

They decided to go for a twin-engine design.

Why?

Because they could at least fit tuned-up ATAR 9K turbojet engines to it (until they develop or secure a 80-90 kN class turbofan). But it doesn't change the fact that their next-gen fighter was to use Mirage F-1 or Cheetah engines.

That is jugaar.

One man's jugaar is another man's ingenuity.


Thanks for this piece of info.... I assume the plane never took off the drawing boards? Looks very cool though, sort off a hybrid between a MIG and Mirage.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

One man's jugaar is another man's ingenuity.


Thanks for this piece of info.... I assume the plane never took off the drawing boards? Looks very cool though, sort off a hybrid between a MIG and Mirage.

It got off the drawing boards and was in full-out development. It ground to a halt in by the early 1990s due to the end of major threats to justify the high cost and South Africa's re-integration into the world economy.

But South Africa offers a lesson ...

Where there's an actual will, a way will emerge.

One way or another, Atlas developed aero-structures, control, turbofan, weapons, etc, programs to develop this fighter. From what I read, these programs were all making serious progress. @denel

But there are caveats. South Africa was serious about the Carver (until the early 1990s), and it put scientists and engineers in charge of the program. If we want the same of AZM, we'll need to do the same across both (1) seriousness and (2) giving the reins to R&D folk, and that'll probably mean civies.

 

[RAMPAGE]

@Bilal Khan 777

You posted pictures of a couple of proposed designs with single vertical stabilisers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but these cannot be true 5th generation aircrafts.

 

[airomerix]

Thats because this thread is missing who have actual knowledge about project. People like @airomerix @Ark_Angel @messiach.

Everybody is making best educated guesses.

I'm humbled. However, What exactly is being discussed? I seem to have missed alot in the last tens of pages. Can you bring me up to speed, please?

Meanwhile, I might be ables find something in this file.

image removed

 

[Kabotar]

Nothing concrete, since there is no new information for quite sometime. It's all about difficulties we will face developing FCS, Avionics, turbines and weapons systems.
Some believe that FC31 will be basis for AZM.

I'm humbled. However, What exactly is being discussed? I seem to have missed alot in the last tens of pages. Can you bring me up to speed, please?

Meanwhile, I might be ables find something in this file.

View attachment 658600