Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Orange lines and metroes.

Misplaced priorities I guess *shrugs*

Yep build roads when Pakistanis prefer traveling by air and rail, and then refuse to build planes and trains until Ethiopia starts doing it.

 

[SABRE]

ACM Sohail Aman said PAC roped in Chinese experts. As @Armchair guessed, we probably have CAC involved in some way. Besides, if the intent is to draw on Chinese engines and (likely) flight control tech, then we'll need to bring more of those experts to help anyways since there's a lot of proprietary knowledge involved.

If we have money we can rope in European experts as well. Ukraine might be one pond to go fishing in.

 

[The Raven]

ACM Sohail Aman said PAC roped in Chinese experts. As @Armchair guessed, we probably have CAC involved in some way. Besides, if the intent is to draw on Chinese engines and (likely) flight control tech, then we'll need to bring more of those experts to help anyways since there's a lot of proprietary knowledge involved.

It hardly takes a genius to figure out we're going to need Chinese help. This has been eluded by the PAF from the outset.

 

[RAMPAGE]

Yep build roads when Pakistanis prefer traveling by air and rail, and then refuse to build planes and trains until Ethiopia starts doing it.

Lol

 

[The Maverick]

Nuclear weapons and missle technology is not cutting edge.imo. even a relative poor limited nation like north Korea has achieved. Nuclear weapons have been.in existence since 1948 and missles since 1950s.

Building a real.late 4th generation fighter or even 5th generation fighter costs billions of dollars and cutting edge aerospace and electronic tech.
Even more vital you need the labs and wind tunnels.
This infrastructure does not exist in Pac.
This is why all.the testing on block 3 is done in chengdu not Pakistan.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Nuclear weapons and missle technology is not cutting edge.imo. even a relative poor limited nation like north Korea has achieved. Nuclear weapons have been.in existence since 1948 and missles since 1950s.

Building a real.late 4th generation fighter or even 5th generation fighter costs billions of dollars and cutting edge aerospace and electronic tech.
Even more vital you need the labs and wind tunnels.
This infrastructure does not exist in Pac.
This is why all.the testing on block 3 is done in chengdu not Pakistan.

Pakistan has had MIRV technology since early 2017. That is advanced aerospace technology:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....checkmates-indias-missile-defence-system/amp/

Could you post a link to the evidence that confirms that the JF-17 Block 3 tests are only done in China and that the PAC doesn't have that capability?

 

[JamD]

This is absolute hogwash because you are trying to conflate two separate problems that have the same final outcome. The Indian failure is a result of researchers trying to tell the air force what kind of fighter jet they need. Alhamdullillah, there is very little chance of this happening with Azm. Second, the only 'indigenous' thing in Tejas is the aerodynamic design and flight control software. The radar, the weapons, the engine, the avionics, the communications, the cockpit systems, life support systems, everything is foreign. The Tejas, and the entire effort that has gone into it, is an extremely poor basis to declare India ahead of us in aerospace.

We can debate about the reasons for the failure of the LCA program to provide IAF with a JF-17 like solution on another thread. I'd rather not derail the Azm thread. You said "the only indigenous thing in Tejas is the aerodynamic design and flight control software" like those are small things. Those are huge things. Those are things PAC could not and has not done for the JF-17. Your statement should tell you why I am saying the Indian aerospace industry is more advanced than ours. Furthermore, LCA wasn't the only (or even the main) basis for my claim of their aero industry being more advanced than ours. You should look at all the work they do (however troubled) in turbojets, materials, manufacturing, composites, GNC, electronics. There are 100s of things they do in India that we do not do in Pakistan. You can't remain oblivious to this. Let's not even begin to compare ISRO to SUPARCO. Finally, look at all the books by Indian (living and working in India) authors on aerospace subjects. You will be hard-pressed to find any by Pakistanis. This is because we don't have expertise. We just have the bare minimum amount of expertise in closed off strategic organizations that only benefit very specific projects. Hardly an "industry".

Alhamdullillah, PAC has proven structural engineering capabilities, and per various official videos, they have developed an indigenous design capability through CAD and CFD simulation software. Their stated aim is to utilize the wind tunnel infrastructure in China, but this aim is superficial. Testing an aircraft requires much more than a wind tunnel. You need customized electromechanical rigs and the associated expertise in instrumentation, mechatronics, and electrical/electronics engineering. For a fifth gen airframe, you need not just expertise in materials engineering, but innovative and possibly customized manufacturing capabilities. This encompasses welding, joints, large object construction, and process for application of stealth materials. Finally, you need specialists in RF/microwave design working with the aerodynamic design specialists.

Of course PAC has a lot of capabilities. No denying that. I didn't say PAC had NO ability. I think you misunderstood my post. I was trying to prepare us forumers and the nation for a long and difficult road ahead for Project Azm.

Your problem is that you cannot envision Azm in your own mind. Which is why you are screaming about involvement of third parties. Azm represents Pakistan's long-term security, which cannot be compromised by giving any third party a large oversight or deep insight into the project. We will need to place some level of trust in PAC to deliver on this aim. Conversely, PAC needs to develop this trust by slowly revealing bits and pieces that show progress in the right direction.

You're right I cannot. And I don't know if anyone in Pakistan can. Three countries in the world (USA, China, Russia) can envision such a project. So there are bound to be a lot of teething problems because we won't know what we need when we start. Also, PAC isn't as closed off as you're saying it should be with regards to Azm. PAC has held several "open meetings" with SPD engineers and universities discussing their goals and problems, and asking for help in various areas.

There are two big risks in this project: an unending design and development process, and lack of prior experience. In this regard, an analogy can be drawn with Tejas, but only superficially. Since PAC is closely controlled by the PAF, there are lesser chances of politics playing a factor. Since the initiative is owned by the air force, there are lesser chances of focus being diverted to an off-the-shelf solution.

You just presented an excellent summary of my post and yet you are disagreeing with me on something, of which I am unsure of now. Is the comparison with LCA problematic to you? I agree PAC is directly controlled by PAF and that smooths out a lot of red-tape but also keep in mind that Project Azm appears to be (don't know if true) a PAF only project and not a national project (like the nuclear program). A PAF only project can be cancelled for lack of funds/results or due to delays.

Just a suggestion: Please be respectful. There is no need to use phrases like "absolute hogwash" and "you are screaming". I am patient with, and respect all posters, and expect the same in return.

Building a real.late 4th generation fighter or even 5th generation fighter costs billions of dollars and cutting edge aerospace and electronic tech.
Even more vital you need the labs and wind tunnels.
This infrastructure does not exist in Pac.
This is why all.the testing on block 3 is done in chengdu not Pakistan.

This might be an unpopular opinion on this forum, especially coming from someone with Indian flags but this is the truth.

*Gets called traitor in 3...2...1..* lol

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Pakistan has had MIRV technology since early 2017. That is advanced aerospace technology:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....checkmates-indias-missile-defence-system/amp/

Could you post a link to the evidence that confirms that the JF-17 Block 3 tests are only done in China and that the PAC doesn't have that capability?

Bro we literally saw pics of the Block-3 flying in China first. So of course the testing was done in Chengdu and not in Pakistan. PAC gets prototypes much later, and for acclimation (it seems) more so than developing it because, sadly, most of the subsystems and weapons too come from China.

 

[The Maverick]

Pakistan has had MIRV technology since early 2017. That is advanced aerospace technology:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....checkmates-indias-missile-defence-system/amp/

Could you post a link to the evidence that confirms that the JF-17 Block 3 tests are only done in China and that the PAC doesn't have that capability?

https://fighterjetsworld.com/weekly...-and-specification-what-we-know-so-far/21095/

This is link ……...Block 3 being tested in Chengdu .
In PAC you overhaul ,and repair and assembly but design and manufacturing is different

 

[Falcon26]

ACM Sohail Aman said PAC roped in Chinese experts. As @Armchair guessed, we probably have CAC involved in some way. Besides, if the intent is to draw on Chinese engines and (likely) flight control tech, then we'll need to bring more of those experts to help anyways since there's a lot of proprietary knowledge involved.

If the New York Times is to be believed, this is exactly what’s already happening


“According to the undisclosed proposal drawn up by the Pakistani Air Force and Chinese officials at the start of the year, a special economic zone under CPEC would be created in Pakistan to produce a new generation of fighter jets. For the first time, navigation systems, radar systems and onboard weapons would be built jointly by the countries at factories in Pakistan.

 

[ziaulislam]

Whole point of azm is to survive the future intensive environment which a 4.5 gen ac cannot
---

In the 1980s, EVERYONE said that Pakistan does not have the capacity to build nuclear weapons and that it is impossible for Pakistan to EVER become a nuclear weapons state with or without Chinese assistance. We all know what happened after May 1998......... Just as then so is now..........




I believe that to be true. Just like May 1998 when Pakistan become a nuclear weapons state. After being told for 20 years that it is impossible for Pakistan to EVER become a nuclear weapons state with or without Chinese assistance.

No, actually everyone thought pakistan will be able to built it..as nuke isnt as advance as fifth gen fighter ..they just looked the otherway due to soviet union

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Anyways, it's high time we Pakistanis get our heads out of the sand.

You take one look at the Indian sub-forum, and you'll see them working on hypersonic glide vehicles, drones, their own FGFA (with clear proof of design work, wind-tunnel testing, etc), and many of the inputs. Likewise, they have foreign companies willing to enter and compete for Indian experts (which, ironically, might be the only thing now to slow India from advancing its own work -- brain drain).

I don't know why we can't just accept the facts and think critically.

This habit of playing ourselves up while blindly discounting India over ridiculously little things (like nabbing pigeons or tiny diplomatic shortfalls) is killing us. It's embarrassing, childish and shameful behavior.

We don't have our own equivalent to CAG to inquire why we bought VT4s from China while HIT is rolling out under capacity, or why the expertise for flight control tech wasn't built when we started the Super-7 program, etc.

Instead, when anyone questions it and brings a contrarian point-of-view, we get emotional outbursts that parrot a narrative, but are absent of any real facts.

I hate to say it, but day by day, Pakistan is seeming less like an actual country, and more of an uncle's club for wasting public funds and selling lies.

If the New York Times is to be believed, this is exactly what’s already happening


“According to the undisclosed proposal drawn up by the Pakistani Air Force and Chinese officials at the start of the year, a special economic zone under CPEC would be created in Pakistan to produce a new generation of fighter jets. For the first time, navigation systems, radar systems and onboard weapons would be built jointly by the countries at factories in Pakistan.

1 of 2 outcomes:

1. We signed onto the FC-31/J-35, and will manufacture a % of the fighter in Pakistan. The critical stuff (electronics, etc) will be built by Chinese companies in Pakistan, while the rest we'll cover. And we'll export these parts back to China for use by the PLAAF and/or PLAN as an offset agreement.

2. It's an original design, but the Chinese will set-up shop at SEZs to supply the inputs (including engine, radar, etc) drawing on as much local content as possible. And re-export those inputs back to China.

 

[The Maverick]

One good point to acknowledge.

Pakistan Military and PAC are well aware of their limitations be it technology or financial.
For this reason your Project AZM will be tailored to be realistic and achievable

That's means part funding and testing will be done in China . I see this running in identical fashion to Thunder/fierce dragon as chinease call it .

 

[JamD]

Anyways, it's high time we Pakistanis get our heads out of the sand.

You take one look at the Indian sub-forum, and you'll see them working on hypersonic glide vehicles, drones, their own FGFA (with clear proof of design work, wind-tunnel testing, etc), and many of the inputs. Likewise, they have foreign companies willing to enter and compete for Indian experts (which, ironically, might be the only thing now to slow India from advancing its own work -- brain drain).

I don't know why we can't just accept the facts and think critically.

This habit of playing ourselves up while blindly discounting India over ridiculously little things (like nabbing pigeons or tiny diplomatic shortfalls) is killing us. It's embarrassing, childish and shameful behavior.

We don't have our own equivalent to CAG to inquire why we bought VT4s from China while HIT is rolling out under capacity, or why the expertise for flight control tech wasn't built when we started the Super-7 program, etc.

Instead, when anyone questions it and brings a contrarian point-of-view, we get emotional outbursts that parrot a narrative, but are absent of any real facts.

I hate to say it, but day by day, Pakistan is seeming less like an actual country, and more of an uncle's club for wasting public funds and selling lies.

Firstly, excellent post! This post should be required reading for anyone posting in any technical thread on this forum.

Secondly, allow me to speculate as to why we like to do these things:
1. Secrecy: We've had a number of successful programs that were run in secrecy and revealed to great fanfare of our people. While this is great for various reasons, this gives us a lazy man's defense of "oh there's a secret program working on this, it's so advanced". You can't argue/debate with the "secret" argument. I can start claiming right now that PAC has developed all the requisite technologies in secret and there's nothing anyone can say to disprove this.
2. On some deep level we know we are lacking in several areas. We are so horrified by this that we will do all kinds of mental gymnastics to ensure that we don't have to face the ugly truth of many things.
3. International Pandemic of Dangerous Nationalism. We have our fair share of people that will praise and accept everything Pakistani, however flawed it is. This is happening everywhere in the world so not surprised it would happen here as well. Ironically, it is this intentional self-blinding that hurts us more than any other deficiencies we may have.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Firstly, excellent post! This post should be required reading for anyone posting in any technical thread on this forum.

Secondly, allow me to speculate as to why we like to do these things:
1. Secrecy: We've had a number of successful programs that were run in secrecy and revealed to great fanfare of our people. While this is great for various reasons, this gives us a lazy man's defense of "oh there's a secret program working on this, it's so advanced". You can't argue/debate with the "secret" argument. I can start claiming right now that PAC has developed all the requisite technologies in secret and there's nothing anyone can say to disprove this.
2. On some deep level we know we are lacking in several areas. We are so horrified by this that we will do all kinds of mental gymnastics to ensure that we don't have to face the ugly truth of many things.
3. International Pandemic of Dangerous Nationalism. We have our fair share of people that will praise and accept everything Pakistani, however flawed it is. This is happening everywhere in the world so not surprised it would happen here as well. Ironically, it is this intentional self-blinding that hurts us more than any other deficiencies we may have.

Yep. It's ironic in a way. If we just said, "God is with us," then that'd be tacit recognition of our worldly deficiencies, and we need to invoke God in our stead. It's not the right approach, but it's at least honest. Sadly, what are doing instead is saying we're fully capable in worldly terms, and that we can do it on our own. That's just insanity, and it'gets crazier because we'll say we got secret projects, secret money, secret allies, etc Lol.