Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Trango Towers]

Gia wahi nhi jisko visa nhi mila , apko to mil gia ap chaly gay

I think you ate talking about villagers.
I live half 6months Pakistan and 6 months abroad. Actually I didn't apply...my father came to the west b4 I was born

 

[Riz]

I think you ate talking about villagers.
I live half 6months Pakistan and 6 months abroad. Actually I didn't apply...my father came to the west b4 I was born

This is why you have very less information about the mentality of common Pakistanis

 

[Titanium100]

TFX is the answer.. Turkish aerospace have an office there meaning they got assist with engines

 

[Indos]

Inevitable given the lack of experience in designing planes of any type in Pakistan to all of a sudden trying to build a 5th Gen plane. It was going to fail - but it was a matter of time. Better to realise early on and stop it.

Pakistan should focus on designing from ground up in Pakistan, the replacement of the Mushshak platform?
Then work its way to replacing the K8 ? And then maybe design a LIFT ?

And - with each iteration build the ecosystem required to build a 5th/6th Gen plane in Pakistan. It is a progressive journey. Maybe PAF realised eventually that "designing a military jet plane" is quite different from manufacturing a military jet plane.

Designing LIFT can be a good idea, it doesnt need too much investment like fighter development program and I think it can also be used to replace JF 17 as current LIFT can even incorporate STEALTH design.

Just see Indonesian Aerospace previous plan that I speculate happen before joining KF 21/IFX.

This is LIFT program from Indonesian Aerospace (PTDI)

LSX means = Latih Serang Experimental (Latih=Train, Serang; Attack)

 

[lcloo]

Pakistani members here should look at the experience of other countries as below:-

When it comes to 5th gen stealth jets, US, China and Russia are on a league of their own, and can do it alone due to their industrial power and size of their airforce and naval aviations. They have the technology, money and market. Though money wise, Russia is a bit of lacking as indicated in Indian investment.

South Korea, Turkey, Japan and Europe (UK) are on another league that need foreign technologies. Their industrial base is well established, and money wise some of them would need foreign money injection to finance their ambitions. Their domestic markets are also too small to be cost effective as such their seeking of foreign partners as in South Korea-Indonesia joint venture.

Japanese are not looking bright in their ambition as their experience with F-2 (a derivative of F-16) turn out to be very costly at US$171 million each, about twice the cost of current costs of F-35 stealth jet. The high cost is mainly due to only 98 jets were built, far too small number for economy of scale.

AZM project would need foreign technology for 5th gen jet, if you go alone developing your technology and mature in 2047, the countries mentioned above would be flying 6th gen in large number by then.

Money wise, Pakistan is also far behind all countries mentioned above, and yet some of them still need to seek foreign money injection for their 5th gen jets development.

Market wise, even if Pakistan would to buy around 200 5th gen jets which is too small even if taking into consideration of export possibilities, they would probably ended up like the cost outcome of Japanese F-2 fighter jets. F-2 jets cost US171 million, more than 3X the cost of F-16 made during the same period. Bear in mind F-2 is a derivative of F-16.

So the only realistic path for Pakistan is be a joint venture partner with a country free from US sanction.

Countries more advance than Pakistan technologically in Aviation like Sweden, South Africa, Israel, Brazil and Canada are not even seriously trying to develop 5th gen on their own.

 

[Sayfullah]

Even if project azm took till 2050 to complete it’s still worth more then buying another fighter off the shelf.
If the stealth fighter project is truly dead then Pakistan should at least look into building a 4.5 gen twin engine fighter but that doesn’t look like it will happen since we bought j-10c.
We are back to relying on others instead of building our domestic capabilities.
At this rate even Bangladesh will be more capable then us soon.

 

[Indos]

Designing LIFT can be a good idea, it doesnt need too much investment like fighter development program and I think it can also be used to replace JF 17 as current LIFT can even incorporate STEALTH design.

Just see Indonesian Aerospace previous plan that I speculate happen before joining KF 21/IFX.

This is LIFT program from Indonesian Aerospace (PTDI)

LSX means = Latih Serang Experimental (Latih=Train, Serang; Attack)

View attachment 814235

Yup, after I check, the plan comes to surface before joining KF21/IFX program. This is 2008 plan and I believe will not be continued for at least 2030 as Indonesian Aerospace will likely focus on KF21 and civilian planes development like N 219, N245, and R80 (together with Regio Aviasi Industri/RAI) and also its MALE UCAV development and other on going projects.

 

[Reichmarshal]

This is a country of 200 million plus, a few thousand leaving is not even a drop in a bucket.

Be patent n relax rather than going crazy over hearsay

 

[Indos]

This is a country of 200 million plus, a few thousand leaving is not even a drop in a bucket.

Be patent n relax rather than going crazy over hearsay

The effort IMO should be making the company profitable enough and not rely too much on the military aircraft. PAK KAMRA can reach civilian market which has more market than fighter market. Fighter market has much tigher competition and much smaller market than civilian planes, fighter development is also more expensive compared to civilian planes.

MALE UCAV program that currently is going on should be continued as it is a complete program from designing, testing, into manufacturing. LIFT plane is another program that I think is good enough to be pursue, particularly if it corporate Stealth design as current LIFT planes still use conventional design like Hurjet and T-50 Golden Eagle.

This can make the company provide enough salary and avoid current engineers coming to Western countries while in the same time has enough money to spend for new development program which maybe not something like fifth generation fighter but enough to bring experience to the new engineers and also as a way to transfer knowledge and experience from senior and very senior engineers.

 

[NA71]

This is a country of 200 million plus, a few thousand leaving is not even a drop in a bucket.

Be patent n relax rather than going crazy over hearsay

In those 200 million, how many are well educated and in those how many in engineering field and in particular aeronautics?

 

[.King.]

Just saying, Azm was dead before it started. PAC didnt have the necessary experience, it takes a lot of time for any aircraft to be built. India's first fighter was designed and built in 1960s, it took 40 years more for a proper 4.5 gen fighter to be designed and take flight and another 10 years for it to be delivered. Even then, India will take 20-25 years for its 5th gen fighter, from 2010 to 2030-35 tentative.

Sorry, but JF 17 doesnt count as design experience. Almost all of it was done in china, with small modifications for pakistan. I would recommend PAC build their own 4th gen fighter before going for 5th gen, otherwise it will be quite difficult.

 

[Fioril]

The expected date for Azm prototype was 2028 and considering usual delays and Covid , we all knew we wont be seeing any prototype before 2032-35. Why did we abandon the project 12-15 years early. Dont think it has anything to do with funding considering our Armed forces recent purchasing spree and one member here saying PAF has almost $5b in reserves for acquisitions.

 

[.King.]

The expected date for Azm prototype was 2028 and considering usual delays and Covid , we all knew we wont be seeing any prototype before 2032-35. Why did we abandon the project 12-15 years early. Dont think it has anything to do with funding considering our Armed forces recent purchasing spree and one member here saying PAF has almost $5b in reserves for acquisitions.

Turkey wanted 2B for PAC to be involved in TFX, developing on your own would have cost much more.

 

[The Eagle]

Just saying, Azm was dead before it started. PAC didnt have the necessary experience, it takes a lot of time for any aircraft to be built. India's first fighter was designed and built in 1960s, it took 40 years more for a proper 4.5 gen fighter to be designed and take flight and another 10 years for it to be delivered. Even then, India will take 20-25 years for its 5th gen fighter, from 2010 to 2030-35 tentative.

Sorry, but JF 17 doesnt count as design experience. Almost all of it was done in china, with small modifications for pakistan. I would recommend PAC build their own 4th gen fighter before going for 5th gen, otherwise it will be quite difficult.

First of all, AZM is an umbrella project/mothership which will be responsible for Pakistan Defence Production like NGF, Loyal Wingman, UCAV, Avionics, Radars, weapon development and a lot more. Do you know the recent developments in any of programs under AZM? I am sure you had no idea about that.

From totally an independent point of view; it is just unfair & ironical to compare PAC achievements with India. I say the irony because Thunder is flying in active and operational duties since induction and even took part during Operation Swift Retort on 27th Feb, 2019 (You may remember well). Thunder has Blocks production and has its own merits alone in the world of Military Aviation. What you implied in regard to delivery for IAF is merely a brownie point to refer to as compare to performing active duties & inducted in full form.

Can you accept that what was India's participation into Tejas that you referred? Majority components are from different OEMs and even design philosophy is heavily contended by French. Do these all numbers count to the total failure of HAL/India. I don't see that like this. India learn from the progress and still developing but if you compare the homegrown Fighter's achievement between both countries, Pakistan is ahead of India given the Thunder's induction, operational duties & exported as well.

Your unawareness in regard to Pakistan's participation in Thunder program could be the reason for not knowing in detail while looking at it from an independent point of view. However, my point is not to convince you in this area since you have already decided and apparently know too much what's being said from an adversary propective.

Lest not just demean the process of progress just because it is about Pakistan and you have to oppose for the sake of it . If could search and read it for the sense of information & knowledge; you will be able to see what is being done and what was the level.

This thread is not about comparison between Pakistan & India especially since India is not even building a 5th Gen Program or to call it an achievement or even a failure to begin with. If someone really want it to be weighed with achievements & risk of failures; the one could refer to US, Russia, China, Japan, SK & Turkey in line of active 5th Gen programs either achieved or failed. The comparison validates the point when it is done between a successful program & the one being stopped/scrapped/delayed/postponed due to lot of limitations. India is not the bench mark in this regard to compare with since itself struggling to take off from the paper let alone referring the same for comparison. There is no comparison.

No more on India V/s Pakistan thing on it.

 

[.King.]

First of all, AZM is an umbrella project/mothership which will be responsible for Pakistan Defence Production like NGF, Loyal Wingman, UCAV, Avionics, Radars, weapon development and a lot more. Do you know the recent developments in any of programs under AZM? I am sure you had no idea about that.

From totally an independent point of view; it is just unfair & ironical to compare PAC achievements with India. I say the irony because Thunder is flying in active and operational duties since induction and even took part during Operation Swift Retort on 27th Feb, 2019 (You may remember well). Thunder has Blocks production and has its own merits alone in the world of Military Aviation. What you implied in regard to delivery for IAF is merely a brownie point to refer to as compare to performing active duties & inducted in full form.

Can you accept that what was India's participation into Tejas that you referred? Majority components are from different OEMs and even design philosophy is heavily contended by French. Do these all numbers count to the total failure of HAL/India. I don't see that like this. India learn from the progress and still developing but if you compare the homegrown Fighter's achievement between both countries, Pakistan is ahead of India given the Thunder's induction, operational duties & exported as well.

Your unawareness in regard to Pakistan's participation in Thunder program could be the reason for not knowing in detail while looking at it from an independent point of view. However, my point is not to convince you in this area since you have already decided and apparently know too much what's being said from an adversary propective.

Lest not just demean the process of progress just because it is about Pakistan and you have to oppose for the sake of it . If could search and read it for the sense of information & knowledge; you will be able to see what is being done and what was the level.

This thread is not about comparison between Pakistan & India especially since India is not even building a 5th Gen Program or to call it an achievement or even a failure to begin with. If someone really want it to be weighed with achievements & risk of failures; the one could refer to US, Russia, China, Japan, SK & Turkey in line of active 5th Gen programs either achieved or failed. The comparison validates the point when it is done between a successful program & the one being stopped/scrapped/delayed/postponed due to lot of limitations. India is not the bench mark in this regard to compare with since itself struggling to take off from the paper let alone referring the same for comparison. There is no comparison.

No more on India V/s Pakistan thing on it.

Wasnt trying to do India vs Pakistan, just used Indian timeline as possible similar timeline. Though I would say, your phrasing about tejas , its design and its components is ill researched.

I would like to ask, what was the input from PAC side in JF 17? From what I read, it was a chinese fighter program that didnt succeed initially, but then when pakistan showed interest, China modified it and sold it off. Would be open to any sources you might offer.