Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Ahmet Pasha]

I get the strong feeling that Turkey will pull of the engine in the time frame.

Brother even if Turks don't develop their own engine. Or even if we don't get that engine. The sheer amount of subsystems and armaments/munitions such as a2a missiles and others. Would make a big difference alone.

 

[Path-Finder]

Brother even if Turks don't develop their own engine. Or even if we don't get that engine. The sheer amount of subsystems and armaments/munitions such as a2a missiles and others. Would make a big difference alone.

They have started and InShaAllah they will achieve it.

 

[ziaulislam]

I get the strong feeling that Turkey will pull of the engine in the time frame.

They will probably
Simply because of extensive experience with f16 engines and then their own R&D
I will be surprised if they fail.

Turkey will be the next france their economy will match france/UK in 10-15 years so will their technology

 

[Path-Finder]

They will probably
Simply because of extensive experience with f16 engines and then their own R&D
I will be surprised if they fail.

Turkey will be the next france their economy will match france in 10 years so will their technology

and with the deals being done with Ukraine and roping them into it in tandem with own vastly accumulated experience in working on and making parts for US engines.

 

[ziaulislam]

and with the deals being done with Ukraine and roping them into it in tandem with own vastly accumulated experience in working on and making parts for US engines.

They practically liscence built the f100 engine

Its not if they can build it ..its when

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I would like to point out a few things which I think might be relevant here. Regarding the picture postedPAF has stated that TFX meets its needs the most. There have been news of extensive collaboration with our Turk brothers during the design phase. So a similarity would not necessarily indicate anything more than a unified thought process.
However PAF solution has to be a hybrid one as the Turks so far do not have an indegenous engine for their project. Whether theChinese do remains:to be seen. Or will PAF go back to the Russians for a further enhanced/advanced version of the RD93 series( my own assumption based on collaboration on the RD series between the red bear and the PAF).
The Radar and FCS might be an indegenous solution based on recent whispers on the net regarding PAF's efforts to build an indegneous capability with Chinese help(if the rumours are at all true!!!). If not then it will require help from the Chinese/Turks at whatever cost is agreed.
I still think 2026-28 is more than likely for a prototype with SBP in 32-34 period. This remains my opinion based on publically shared info. This is the only reason one would think of stopping block 3 at the third block. I would still like there to be a NGF version although understand that the fighter size might be a limiting factor.
Regards
A

The Turks chose the GE F100-series for the TFX, making the TFX an F-15-sized fighter. Not sure if the RD-93-series would be able to support it without serious performance compromises (and design alterations).

I suspect the PAF has also settled on a similar sized jet with AZM so as to finally get a strike-capable multi-role fighter. In this case, the TFX would be one of several back-ups.

Of course, there's that option of fully working with the Turks on the TFX and the TR Motor turbofan engine, but that'd be a way out there. It'd be a good project to invest in from a macro-standpoint (30-40 years), but IMO, AZM's essentials will come from China.

 

[araz]

We should do it. Because What JFT is right now is good now. But we will need something to complement Azm as it will be an air superiority fighter and most likely will not be fielded in high numbers. So we should expand the scope of capabilities JFT possesses/can possess in future.

We can do this seperate project after we are done with Azm. Like how F35(medium multi role) came after F22(air superiority).

You are comparing US with Pakistan. That alone is a fallacy. PAC does not have thecapacigy or the money to run 2 simultaneous projects requiring extensive inputs. Not even Lockmart does that SIMULTANEOUSLY. They had cooperation with Grumen on the 35s and then came back to 16s/70/72. You are seriously underwztimating the work involved. To give you an example putting AESAinto JFT required nearly a year's worth of work.Talk about revamping the/whole design. It could set the project back by 5-10 years soit is a-nonviable thought process.
A

The Turks chose the GE F100-series for the TFX, making the TFX an F-15-sized fighter. Not sure if the RD-93-series would be able to support it without serious performance compromises (and design alterations).

I suspect the PAF has also settled on a similar sized jet with AZM so as to finally get a strike-capable multi-role fighter. In this case, the TFX would be one of several back-ups.

Of course, there's that option of fully working with the Turks on the TFX and the TR Motor turbofan engine, but that'd be a way out there. It'd be a good project to invest in from a macro-standpoint (30-40 years), but IMO, AZM's essentials will come from China.

Thank you. My only issue with China would be their inaistence on selling us rather than help us make-our-own. Theyhave not yet demonstrated a fifth generation engine although they may not be far behind.
A

 

[Path-Finder]

They practically liscence built the f100 engine

Its not if they can build it ..its when

yes indeed.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Thank you. My only issue with China would be their inaistence on selling us rather than help us make-our-own. Theyhave not yet demonstrated a fifth generation engine although they may not be far behind.
A

Even if AvRID/PAC successfully design, develop, integrate, test, and manufacture AZM, they'll still buy the engines, semi-conductors, and other industrial-scale components from China. Basically, the Chinese will benefit the most from the project (financially), and still influence our supply line.

It's the reality, but nothing to be ashamed of. Every military project orbits around one of five big powers: USA, UK/Germany, France, Russia, and China. Ours will rotate around China until such a time we (along with Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, Morocco, Qatar, etc) reach a level of industrialization where we can collaborate like Europe.

The best way forward is to seek the fighter and the technology, but do it separately.

For the fighter aircraft, work on AZM in close cooperation with China. For the technology, work with Turkey, but know it will take 20, 30, or even 40 years to get it right before we can make an indigenous fighter from end-to-end.

 

[Indos]

They practically liscence built the f100 engine

Its not if they can build it ..its when

Critical part is still from US while most of the work is assembling. If company like Prat & Witney/GE/RR let other to make their engine completely due to money, then UAE and Saudi will be the first among Muslim nations who can produce competitive jet engine.

Their SOM missile and ATMACA still use Ukraine turbojet until now.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

Critical part is still from US while most of the work is assembling. If company like Prat & Witney/GE/RR let other to make their engine completely due to money, then UAE and Saudi will be the first among Muslim nations who can produce competitive jet engine.

Their SOM missile and ATMACA still use Ukraine turbojet until now.

Noop, KTJ 3200's integration into missiles has begun. The reason for the delay of the project was that the tender was not given to TEI but to KALE, which can be considered as a new business. Also, when we integrate them into missiles, it does not mean that we can handle this type of engine. Wrong example. In any case, it will take years, the British ambassador makes statements for TFX and says he is sorry that Rolls Royce is not involved in the new phase, I am hearing that Rolls Royce will be working for the phase 2 design phase. Here, the KALE-RR partnership will come to the fore in production, even if it is not R & D.

* Atmaca and Som uses Microturbo TR40

Anyway, Pakistan will need the company for its turbine engines.

 

[Titanium100]

I get the strong feeling that Turkey will pull of the engine in the time frame.

It will be ready by 2025 after testing phase. KFX will be ready one year before TFX. KFX will have it's fight flight in 2022 while TFX 2023 but I am more excited about Azm it sounds more then just a 5th generation or stealth it sounds more then that. I read about it and instantly thought for myself this is not a 5th generation the build-in it comes with is creative and innovating idea when it is completed it would be a fine fighter jet.

I'm currently watching closely the British tempest fighter jet it is in production. They are probably gonna use Rolls royce or partner with them. It will be ready by 2035

 

[Indos]

Even if AvRID/PAC successfully design, develop, integrate, test, and manufacture AZM, they'll still buy the engines, semi-conductors, and other industrial-scale components from China. Basically, the Chinese will benefit the most from the project (financially), and still influence our supply line.

It's the reality, but nothing to be ashamed of. Every military project orbits around one of five big powers: USA, UK/Germany, France, Russia, and China. Ours will rotate around China until such a time we (along with Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, Morocco, Qatar, etc) reach a level of industrialization where we can collaborate like Europe.

The best way forward is to seek the fighter and the technology, but do it separately.

For the fighter aircraft, work on AZM in close cooperation with China. For the technology, work with Turkey, but know it will take 20, 30, or even 40 years to get it right before we can make an indigenous fighter from end-to-end.

Actually PAC Kamra still rely their business by making JF 17. It will be a problem if 5 generation fighter become the norm within Air Force world wide, particularly if India has already had AMCA. It means at some particular points, JF 17 production must be stopped. If JF 17 production is stopped then it would be dangerous for PAC Kamra business sustainability.

In order to give business continuity to PAC Kamra then comes up the idea to build AZM. The problem is that making fifth generation fighter is not easy and very costly, even Korea needs Indonesia to build KFX/IFX together. The KFX/IFX chief designer from Korea even said recently (see KFX/IFX thread) they still lack of engineers to build KFX/IFX (even though there is additional 114 Indonesian designers who help them) and must get engineer from their shipbuilding industry to help the program. Until now more engineers are still needed, current numbers is not enough.

In my opinion, the most important thing for PAC Kamra to survive in the future is to build drone. AZM is optional in my opinion, but developing a drone is a must. I mean not just license produce Chinese drone, but developing from the start to give experience for the engineers to design it and get transfer of knowledge from senior designers into junior ones. Making drone is also much cheaper than making 5 generation fighter.

If there is no project that can make transfering knowledge from senior engineers into younger designers/engineers possible, then Pakistan Aerospace industry can end up like Singapore/Malaysia Aerospace Industry who only can produce aerospace parts, without designing capability. Thus it is why they dont have homegrown aerospace program until now.

All subsystem should be developed indigenously. It is also why Indonesia start MALE UCAV program and make a consortium comprises of several state owned companies, several gov research agencies, and also one of our best STEM university, not just Indonesia Aerospace which is involved. Subsystem development program is better to be done while making an indigenous drone rather than cooperating in 5 generation program, it is due to the cost which is much much lower.

Drone is very essential as future combat fighter will likely in the form of drone and PAC Kamra can also make cargo drone for civilian market. China has already tried to convert one of their military drone into cargo drone (not yet finish), while Indonesia has already had a plan to make it as well. Probably we are going to start the program if our MALE UAV program is successful.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Actually PAC Kamra still rely their business by making JF 17. It will be a problem if 5 generation fighter become the norm within Air Force world wide, particularly if India has already had AMCA. It means at some particular points, JF 17 production must be stopped. If JF 17 production is stopped then it would be dangerous for PAC Kamra business sustainability.

In order to give business continuity to PAC Kamra then comes up the idea to build AZM. The problem is that making fifth generation fighter is not easy and very costly, even Korea needs Indonesia to build KFX/IFX together. The KFX/IFX chief designer from Korea even said recently (see KFX/IFX thread) they still lack of engineers to build KFX/IFX (even though there is additional 114 Indonesian designers who help them) and must get engineer from their shipbuilding industry to help the program. Until now more engineers are still needed, current numbers is not enough.

In my opinion, the most important thing for PAC Kamra to survive in the future is to build drone. AZM is optional in my opinion, but developing a drone is a must. I mean not just license produce Chinese drone, but developing from the start to give experience for the engineers to design it and get transfer of knowledge from senior designers into junior ones. Making drone is also much cheaper than making 5 generation fighter.

If there is no project that can make transfering knowledge from senior engineers into younger designers/engineers possible, then Pakistan Aerospace industry can end up like Singapore/Malaysia Aerospace Industry who only can produce aerospace parts, without designing capability. Thus it is why they dont have homegrown aerospace program until now.

All subsystem should be developed indigenously. It is also why Indonesia start MALE UCAV program and make a consortium comprises of several state owned companies, several gov research agencies, and also one of our best STEM university, not just Indonesia Aerospace which is involved. Subsystem development program is better to be done while making an indigenous drone rather than cooperating in 5 generation program, it is due to the cost which is much much lower.

Drone is very essential as future combat fighter will likely in the form of drone and PAC Kamra can also make cargo drone for civilian market. China has already tried to convert one of their military drone into cargo drone (not yet finish), while Indonesia has already had a plan to make it as well. Probably we are going to start the program if our MALE UAV program is successful.

You'd be right if PAC is an actual business, but it isn't.

PAC is a living armory. It's job is to churn out what the PAF wants at a given point of time, and if not, maintain whatever the PAF already has. It's basically a government office, albeit one that can produce fighter aircraft. If it's future is rolling out 6-12 NGFAs a year, then that's where it'll go.

It's the same story for HIT, KSEW, POF, and most others.

 

[The Raven]

The core design of Azm will all depend on the engine selected. Pakistan doesn't have the luxury of an established industrial base to design and manufacture an engine specifically for Azm, in contrast to say the historical approach of the US or Russia who layed down the specs of their fighter development programmes and left it to engines designers to develop appropriate powerplants. The Chinese have had to build a similar capability over a number of decades. For countries like Turkey and Pakistan, the design specs of their fighter programmes are essentially tied to whatever powerplant they can secure. The same approach was used for JF-17, it was essentially designed around a single Klimov RD-33/93 series of engine using the Mig project 33 as a basis. For project Azm, the first decision to be taken before any detailed design work is done will be the engine...which clearly already has been decided upon.