Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[graphican]

Spoke to a friend who works on the JSF project.

Here is what he had to say

i quote:
"Lol whatever
That person is clueless"

USA using USA's technology makes sense. Try asking a Chinese fellow to know what operating systems they use.

 

[volatile]

I think every one here is missing a point 5th generation engines are different from what is currently choice of use for China/Russia .As it has to super cruise ,Heat signature reduced , Air Inject designing ,fuel efficient ,Thrust vectoring (optional)

 

[raazh]

In my opinion, PAC is going over ambitious here. We should have adopted Israeli pattern like concentrating on the electronics side of things only. Why waste limited resources on clean sheet design for a limited approx 100 units. We should have joined either Turkey or China for a common design and then customise it for our requirements. PAC should strictly concentrate on and excel in AESA, EW, E/O sensors, UCAV, netcentric systems and solutions. NDC should be tasked to work on AA and SA missile motors and seekers. No need to start from scratch, just copy or collaborate with whoever is willing to sell and share. China, Turkey, SA, Italy etc

 

[Salman Baig]

Baat sirif itni c hey k sab tukay laga rahay hey. Almost no one in this thread has first hand info of what capabilities we have gained. A few people who has info they simply said its confidential. So this thread is actually more like a wishful thinking and I believe basis for discussion is not solid enough to talk much on this topic.

 

[Figaro]

The engine choice will say a lot about AZM.

Remember, the requirement is for a twin-engine design with super-cruising.

IMO ... if it's the WS-19, then the PAF is clearly looking at a medium-weight fighter. But while having an in-house fighter is admirable and all, what would be the point if there's also the similar J-35? You can certainly roll the two into one, but as we clearly see from the concepts, AZM isn't (at least for now) a J-31-derived design.

However, if they select a WS-10 variant or WS-15, then the PAF is looking at a heavyweight.

In that case, the PAF is clearly fulfilling a need it'd unlikely be able to fill with an import (as buying such fighters from abroad is either not an option, or too expensive). But it'd also be infeasible to center the entire fleet on that large a jet, so that opens the door up to a medium-weight.

How about ...

2030-2045: J-35 as a mainstay medium-weight (120~180 units)?
2035-2045: AZM as a deep-strike-capable 5+ gen platform (50~90 units)?

This outcome also makes some industrial sense too. If Pakistan is manufacturing the AZM turn-key (even with imported engines and materials), do we honestly think it's going to roll out more than 8-12 jets per year? It's rolling out 16 JF-17s per year (against a stated capacity of 24) on a co-production basis with half coming from China.

So, I can see a production run for even 100 AZMs rolling for 15+ years, especially with the lightweight industrial set-up we have in Pakistan. This is especially so if we start relying on the private sector. I want our businesses to succeed, but there's no way we'll see them manufacture fast enough for 15-20 AZMs per year.

By the time the AZM is in prototyping/demonstrator stage, the WS-15 and WS-19 will already be available for Pakistan. Indeed, the former is slated to receive design certification within 2021 to 2023, which means mass production can commence soon after. The WS-19 is further behind but not by much due to the priority assigned to the J-35 program and also it borrowing a lot on the WS-15s technologies. Personally, judging by some of these pictures and in general, I think Pakistan is going for a mid-weight AZM as opposed to a heavy fighter, like the J-20 or the Su-57, so it is very probable the WS-19 will be the powerplant.

I think every one here is missing a point 5th generation engines are different from what is currently choice of use for China/Russia .As it has to super cruise ,Heat signature reduced , Air Inject designing ,fuel efficient ,Thrust vectoring (optional)

The Chinese and Russian state of the art engines, the WS-15 and Izd 30 respectively, all incorporate the attributes you mention. Both give the option to super-cruise given the very high dry thrust and relatively low bypass ratios, both reduce the rear RCS through serrated nozzles (just like the F135), and I'd assume both also have made advancements in specific fuel consumption from their previous state of the art engines, namely the WS-10D and the 117S. Also, both are confirmed to have multi-axial thrust vectoring (3D TVC). As for the WS-19, I don't think TVC is confirmed yet but it is highly likely given the WS-15 already has it.

 

[The Eagle]

Baat sirif itni c hey k sab tukay laga rahay hey. Almost no one in this thread has first hand info of what capabilities we have gained. A few people who has info they simply said its confidential. So this thread is actually more like a wishful thinking and I believe basis for discussion is not solid enough to talk much on this topic.

If you have joined the Forum & you ever expect State Secrets being discussed in open Forum as such; I will only say that you are in the wrong place. Discussions as such will continue where people will discuss possibilities, analysis, observations & ideas until & unless, officials decided to share some information in public domain.

 

[RAMPAGE]

Baat sirif itni c hey k sab tukay laga rahay hey. Almost no one in this thread has first hand info of what capabilities we have gained. A few people who has info they simply said its confidential. So this thread is actually more like a wishful thinking and I believe basis for discussion is not solid enough to talk much on this topic.

That is the point of such forums.

I'll tell you a little secret too. There have been occasions when strategies discussed here were implemented by the armed forces - sometimes by the letter. Strategies of no small import.

 

[PakFactor]

Sure, people who can afford the latest versions of anything are still using old windows for a reason.

But we don’t know if their set up is Close Ended Network or not; which hopefully is of the network to prevent outside access if that’s the concern. The ease of use for older versions also a major factor if they were mostly taught on older versions of the program.

 

[PakFactor]

Baat sirif itni c hey k sab tukay laga rahay hey. Almost no one in this thread has first hand info of what capabilities we have gained. A few people who has info they simply said its confidential. So this thread is actually more like a wishful thinking and I believe basis for discussion is not solid enough to talk much on this topic.

We have families in the military same as I, but their are things that shouldn’t be said on public forum’s for confidential reasons. Between members of the record is one thing — this forum is looked at from a lot of people to dig through info. When things need to be revealed that doesn’t damage national security it will be.
But as other members said sometimes what we discuss has been implemented to some degree.

 

[Thorough Pro]

a model of MIG21

What is this?

View attachment 667856

 

[volatile]

IMO the fundanmentals for 5/6th Generation will require to work on several area`s e.g

1.Conceptual (Design Idea`s)
2.Industrialization (for mass production)

Conceptual wise latest CAD softwares can do wonders and can really support the design teams in many aspects.

Industrialization requires

1.Body/Frame/Composite material (excluding the design as it requires less expertise)
2.New weapons /EW /Suits/PODS /Sensors
3.Engines (Very critical)

1. We lack in this area as we dont have industrial base like China/Turkey/South Korea has since we acquire technology but failed to absorb or move forward due to lack of quality human resource (Private sector can do wonders here) .Also PAF various initiatives like center of excellence and academia will help in this regard. But we will still be relying on multiple vendors across China and Turkey for that .
2. New Weapons /EW/Suits/PODS im confident this will be covered locally.
3. Engine will remain a real problem child for all 3/4 nations developing 5th generation with Turkey having edge in shape of partnership with Rolls Royce .Interesting to see Chinese Multi billion $ injection result in Engine manufacturing .

So far it seems it will be off the shelf solution with local sensors /suits this is the best AZM project can bring to Pakistan .

 

[Figaro]

IMO the fundanmentals for 5/6th Generation will require to work on several area`s e.g

1.Conceptual (Design Idea`s)
2.Industrialization (for mass production)

Conceptual wise latest CAD softwares can do wonders and can really support the design teams in many aspects.

Industrialization requires

1.Body/Frame/Composite material (excluding the design as it requires less expertise)
2.New weapons /EW /Suits/PODS /Sensors
3.Engines (Very critical)

1. We lack in this area as we dont have industrial base like China/Turkey/South Korea has since we acquire technology but failed to absorb or move forward due to lack of quality human resource (Private sector can do wonders here) .Also PAF various initiatives like center of excellence and academia will help in this regard. But we will still be relying on multiple vendors across China and Turkey for that .
2. New Weapons /EW/Suits/PODS im confident this will be covered locally.
3. Engine will remain a real problem child for all 3/4 nations developing 5th generation with Turkey having edge in shape of partnership with Rolls Royce .Interesting to see Chinese Multi billion $ injection result in Engine manufacturing .

So far it seems it will be off the shelf solution with local sensors /suits this is the best AZM project can bring to Pakistan .

Regarding gas turbines, sixth gen aircraft engines are all about adaptive/variable cycle engines. The US already has the YF-120 demonstrator from the 80s, RR and China are also working on demonstrators, and Russia is most likely working toward them too. There is a chance by the time the AZM enters full production, a Chinese adaptive cycle engine might be available.

 

[volatile]

Regarding gas turbines, sixth gen aircraft engines are all about adaptive/variable cycle engines. The US already has the YF-120 demonstrator from the 80s, RR and China are also working on demonstrators, and Russia is most likely working toward them too. There is a chance by the time the AZM enters full production, a Chinese adaptive cycle engine might be available.

In my humble opionion the concept is ready by Chinese and Russian`s .its the reliability part e.g best Chinese and Russian designs still have engine life half of there Western counter parts ,reason being Metallurgy and Metallurgical processes. I have seen how conventional Air line engines are made in RR factory and it is still a guarded secret about turbine blades manufacturing ,another example is Gas Turbines currently available in the world with GE has highest efficiency as well as Siemens .So there is a catching up interms of reliability

 

[m52k85]

I'll tell you a little secret too. There have been occasions when strategies discussed here were implemented by the armed forces - sometimes by the letter. Strategies of no small import.

Can you give examples? Thanks

 

[Salman Baig]

If you have joined the Forum & you ever expect State Secrets being discussed in open Forum as such; I will only say that you are in the wrong place. Discussions as such will continue where people will discuss possibilities, analysis, observations & ideas until & unless, officials decided to share some information in public domain.

That is the point of such forums.

I'll tell you a little secret too. There have been occasions when strategies discussed here were implemented by the armed forces - sometimes by the letter. Strategies of no small import.

We have families in the military same as I, but their are things that shouldn’t be said on public forum’s for confidential reasons. Between members of the record is one thing — this forum is looked at from a lot of people to dig through info. When things need to be revealed that doesn’t damage national security it will be.
But as other members said sometimes what we discuss has been implemented to some degree.

My only point is that information released so far does not provide enough base for discussion. Discussion currently going in this thread is more like wish list.