Profiling Narendra Modi’s Critics

[Joe Shearer]

Let's give the other side a chance to see if they use statistics and compare to previous govts to declare the current one as BAD.
If it's generic, then there is nothing to debate. Modi has already won.

I'm afraid it doesn't work that way. What we decide or do not decide, what we debate or do not debate makes not the slightest influence on the ground. The government will be thrown out or retained on the basis of the voters' judgement, interpreted by the Election Commission. Our actions are for our enlightenment and education alone.

 

[Kdpreddy]

The government will be thrown out or retained on the basis of the voters' judgement, interpreted by the Election Commission

That's the absolute truth. Couldn't agree with you more on this point.
So, what does the elections of last 3 years across the nation tell you?

 

[Joe Shearer]

That's the absolute truth. Couldn't agree with you more on this point.
So, what does the elections of last 3 years across the nation tell you?

That the nation accepted the present government, and it will remain in power until the next.
That there have been different verdicts in different elections, at levels other than that of a general election, and we can get from this that the support given to this administration in such polls can go either way, up or down, and we have no means of guessing.
That people don't vote as religious blocks any longer, but that caste affiliations may take longer to wither away.

 

[Kdpreddy]

That the nation accepted the present government, and it will remain in power until the next.
That there have been different verdicts in different elections, at levels other than that of a general election, and we can get from this that the support given to this administration in such polls can go either way, up or down, and we have no means of guessing.
That people don't vote as religious blocks any longer, but that caste affiliations may take longer to wither away.

Come on, don't cop out now.
I can relate this analysis of yours to 2014 elections but this does not measure why BJP has done spectacularly well in most state elections between 2014 and Now.

I don't deny the Hindutva card they are playing. That does not reflect the near wipe out of opposition in the 3 biggest states of India in UP, Bihar and Maharashtra.
It also does not explain the rise of BJP in West Bengal. Most would have bet their testicles against BJP rise in Bengal 4 years back. Now, BJP has replaced the communists as the opposition. Just ponder on that fact for a minute to understand the churn happening in Indian politics.
BJP has virtually wiped out opposition in North East. How did that happen?

Either the opposition is incredibly stupid or inept or BJP is doing spectacularly well.
Truth though is somewhere in between I think.

 

[jetray]

We cannot wait to see that impending failure has become achieved failure. The time to judge the situation is now.

well they have time till next general elections in 2019 , when we can make our decision.
Remember media or few ppl doesnt represent the real situation on the ground. US elections proved that very well.

They were left in power because there was no viable alternative and they won elections.

Exactly ,when we have no alternative there's no point in complaining about it. Make better use of what we have. They are here bcos rest of them have failed.
If we wanted better choices then we should have woken up during congress regime. In fact it was congress misrule that has given them a chance.

Each government has to be held accountable for the highest standards, not the highest standards previously achieved, but the highest possible achievable standards. And the possible is defined by international standards, not our own enfeebled hand-waving.

theories and practicals are two different things. No doubt we should target for higher standards but waiting for the god is not a soln. It is like hitting a moving target, system will certainly go through number of iterations before an equilibrium is found.


We have become a nation of cynics and hypocrites. All that we do is constantly criticize but not offer any viable solution. End result is a cacophony and chaos.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Come on, don't cop out now.
I can relate this analysis of yours about 2014 elections but this does not measure why BJP has done spectacularly well in most state elections between 2014 and Now.
I don't deny the Hindutva card they are playing. That does not reflect the near wipe out of opposition in the 3 biggest states of India in UP, Bihar and Maharashtra.
It also does not explain the rise of BJP in West Bengal. Most would have bet their testicles against BJP rise in Bengal 4 years back. Now, they are have replaced the communists as the opposition.

Either the opposition is incredibly stupid or inept or BJP is doing spectacularly well.
Truth though is somewhere in between I think.

Please feel free to support your brand of politics without bait and tag tactics. You asked me for my opinion about the verdict of the polls, I gave you my opinion. If you want to present your point of view, do that. Don't link it to my post, or my response; do give us your opinion independently.

And if you want to bet anyone's testicles, confine it to your own. Unless you've lost some earlier bet.

 

[Kdpreddy]

Please feel free to support your brand of politics without bait and tag tactics. You asked me for my opinion about the verdict of the polls, I gave you my opinion. If you want to present your point of view, do that. Don't link it to my post, or my response; do give us your opinion independently.

And if you want to bet anyone's testicles, confine it to your own. Unless you've lost some earlier bet.

Opinions are like Aholes, every one has one. I don't care much about them. At the end of the day, not even 1% of Indian population cares or frankly does not have time to listen to opinions.

I deal with facts. I deal with numbers. I deal with statistics.
I have waited for some facts or statistics on why BJP is bad for nation and all I am getting is opinions.

My opinion has no bearing on this topic. Either the statistics prove BJP to be bad for India or good for India.

Now coming to my opinion on BJP in general, I am from an area where Missionaries have open season on us. You should re-read my name to understand why I would vote for BJP. For me BJP is a Hobson's choice, at least until the other parties start pretending to care for my beliefs.

 

[Joe Shearer]

well they have time till next general elections in 2019 , when we can make our decision.
Remember media or few ppl doesnt represent the real situation on the ground. US elections proved that very well.

Your point being? Should we dispense with the media altogether and save a lot of unnecessary expenditure?

Exactly ,when we have no alternative there's no point in complaining about it. Make better use of what we have. They are here bcos rest of them have failed.
If we wanted better choices then we should have woken up during congress regime. In fact it was congress misrule that has given them a chance.

Just because a particular regime has come to rule doesn't mean that we cannot complain about it. If we take you literally, there would only be that moment between tracing one's name on the voter list and pressing the ballot button to discuss or to debate. Does this sound less than absurd and stupid to you? Don't be shy but answer it truthfully.

I can't understand your argument that between elections, we should have an amnesty on politicians. And I cannot understand how, after throwing out the Congress party, we still get told that we should have done it earlier. If this lot is doing badly, and are voted out, at this forthcoming general elections or later, will we have you bobbing up with the proposition that we should have woken up earlier? Either you are right in saying that we should not criticise a government that has not served its full term, or you are right in saying that we should raise political questions even during the assured period of rule of the winner of an election. Both cannot co-exist.

theories and practicals are two different things. No doubt we should target for higher standards but waiting for the god is not a soln. It is like hitting a moving target, system will certainly go through number of iterations before an equilibrium is found.

What else have we been doing for 70 years? And what else are you criticising so bitterly?

We have become a nation of cynics and hypocrites. All that we do is constantly criticize but not offer any viable solution. End result is a cacophony and chaos.

Sorry, you have a strange view of political practice.

Viable solutions are supposed to be developed by the political administration and advisors. Not by citizens (or netizens). We have a perfect right to criticise. Actually we do not criticise enough. Our politicians get away with a great deal that they should be held accountable for.

Opinions are like Aholes, every one has one. I don't care much about them. At the end of the day, not even 1% of Indian population cares or frankly does not have time to listen to opinions.

I deal with facts. I deal with numbers. I deal with statistics.
I have waited for some facts or statistics on why BJP is bad for nation and all I am getting is opinions.

My opinion has no bearing on this topic. Either the statistics prove BJP to be bad for India or good for India.

Now coming to my opinion on BJP in general, I am from an area where Missionaries have open season on us. You should re-read my name to understand why I would vote for BJP. For me BJP is a Hobson's choice, at least until the other parties start pretending to care for my beliefs.

All that we get from you is an extended opinion. If you have anything to say in terms of facts, numbers and statistics, say it. If you have nothing to say, then save your posts for better use.

Now coming to your opinion (as distinct from facts, numbers and statistics) on BJP in general, I am living right in the heart of what you and your kind thought to be your fiefdom, till you were turfed out. Not by missionaries, but by other Reddys, and Velamas. After re-reading your name, it is a question for me why after your having open season on the rural poor, the scheduled castes and the scheduled tribes for thousands of years, you should not face the music for a change.

I don't think it makes any difference whether the BJP or any other party starts pretending to care for your beliefs. A caste-obsessed bigot will remain a caste-obsessed bigot.

 

[Radio Mirchi]

The problem with fanatic minds is that they believe either you are with them or you are "opposed" to them. For them there is no grey area. For a Bhakt if you are not a Bhakt then you are a Sickular.

 

[Kdpreddy]

All that we get from you is an extended opinion. If you have anything to say in terms of facts, numbers and statistics, say it. If you have nothing to say, then save your posts for better use.

Now coming to your opinion (as distinct from facts, numbers and statistics) on BJP in general, I am living right in the heart of what you and your kind thought to be your fiefdom, till you were turfed out. Not by missionaries, but by other Reddys, and Velamas. After re-reading your name, it is a question for me why after your having open season on the rural poor, the scheduled castes and the scheduled tribes for thousands of years, you should not face the music for a change.

I don't think it makes any difference whether the BJP or any other party starts pretending to care for your beliefs. A caste-obsessed bigot will remain a caste-obsessed bigot.

I don't have to show any statistics since I am not the one placing the current govt on trial. People who claim the current govt is bad have the onus to provide the statistics.

A caste obsessed bigot would have gone with Jagan Reddy's party or Congress or TDP. BJP is the last option for caste obsessed people. I am supporting an OBC PM and a Dalit President. You on the other hand on spitting on them. Tell me Joe, Who is the caste obsessed Bigot amongst the two of us? One who supports lower caste PM & President or the one who can't see these two in positions of power?

Oh, don't get your knickers in a twist. I know you are NOT a caste obsessed bigot. Just showing how I can twist your position to name and shame you.

Lastly, you should analyse why many Hindus like me do not want to give importance to caste anymore. Why as a reddy I would prefer death to supporting some one like Jagan or Naidu. Why as a Hindu I would not support Congress anymore.
The error opposition is doing is thinking people like me are in minority - until you become rational in your thinking, this current BJP dominance will continue. Like I stated, it's a Hobson's choice mate.

 

[T90TankGuy]

I will debate on this, only if you are earnest.
Let us NOT debate on superficial things but on more meaningful things like Economy, defence, internal security, health care, education & Infrastructure.
Both sides must back their claims with numbers and comparison. The reason for comparison is the need to have a starting point. We can not compare Modi to some superficial ideal we hold to but to a more tangible reference point which in this case would be his predecessors.

A suggestion - no name calling from either side during the course of the debate. Terms like liberal, secular or Bhakth would only rise useless emotions and cloud our points, how ever well articulated they are.

Lastly, I don't want to have debate on things like intolerance or somethings similar. There would be no point to do so since there is no way to measure it except on emotional level.

Before replying to this thread i read another post of your where you have conveniently ignored your own advice .
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/surg...s-terror-camps-now.520581/page-5#post-9905361
@Joe Shearer i need time to formulate my post here , today being Dussehra all the maids and nannys are off

 

[Joe Shearer]

Before replying to this thread i read another post of your where you have conveniently ignored your own advice .
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/surg...s-terror-camps-now.520581/page-5#post-9905361
@Joe Shearer i need time to formulate my post here , today being Dussehra all the maids and nannys are off

Happy cotton-balling, Daddy-o! Have the other two come home yet?

 

[Kdpreddy]

Before replying to this thread i read another post of your where you have conveniently ignored your own advice .
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/surg...s-terror-camps-now.520581/page-5#post-9905361

I got carried away in that thread. In my defence, I also provided statistics.
The name shaming is par for that thread where the term 'Bhakth' was used very thoughtlessly.

Do you know the meaning of a 'Bhakth' in Sanatan context mate? If you did, you would not be using the term in the derogatory manner you are intending while using it.

Giving olive branch, I am happy to engage in any meaningful debate if one chooses.

 

[T90TankGuy]

Happy cotton-balling, Daddy-o! Have the other two come home yet?

End of oct, do you really want me on this thread?? this seems like a typical rant from an nri who believe he knows everything and others opinion doesn't matter. Hard to convince a closed mind. Plus he hardly has seen what is happening on the ground.

I got carried away in that thread. In my defence, I also provided statistics.
The name shaming is par for that thread where the term 'Bhakth' was used very thoughtlessly.

Do you know the meaning of a 'Bhakth' in Sanatan context mate? If you did, you would not be using the term in the derogatory manner you are intending while using it.

Giving olive branch, I am happy to engage in any meaningful debate if one chooses.

You should know that blind BJP supporters are referred to as bhakths . i will engage in a discussion with you after reading this post , i am busy now but will be free later tonight.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I don't have to show any statistics since I am not the one placing the current govt on trial. People who claim the current govt is bad have the onus to provide the statistics.

Everyone has an opinion, remember? And neither I nor any other critic has to prove anything; we just have to vote. It's those in power who have to prove whatever they think will convince people to vote for them, and for those not in power to prove the opposite.

A caste obsessed bigot would have gone with Jagan Reddy's party or Congress or TDP. BJP is the last option for caste obsessed people. I am supporting an OBC PM and a Dalit President. You on the other hand on spitting on them. Tell me Joe, Who is the caste obsessed Bigot amongst the two of us? One who supports lower caste PM & President or the one who can't see these two in positions of power?

Not really true. There are more than enough Reddys in the BJP; not much difference in numbers. You must know how your own conversations go; you are the ones who 'survived', the weak and poor are simply the ones who didn't, who couldn't, who in some Darwinian sense have lost the battle of natural selection.

My spitting on the PM and the President (but after the PM, the Vice President more than anyone or anything else in ceremonial positions) doesn't mean that I hate their caste. Why should I, being a Shudra myself?

The reason why you are a caste-obsessed bigot, and don't take it personally, if you are free this weekend, I'll buy the beer, is because you automatically saw the matter in terms of which caste is supported or should be supported. Why I hate the BJP is because they are trying to disenfranchise huge masses of our citizenry on the grounds of religion. Not because of their caste, which factor they use to manipulate the electorate just as much as any other.

Oh, don't get your knickers in a twist. I know you are NOT a caste obsessed bigot. Just showing how I can twist your position to name and shame you.

My knickers remain well-aligned and supportive on all important issues; and I know that you are taking a logical line to prove one side, and that is how it should be. I have tried to show what the difference is between being unable to get away from caste and being hostile to anything that seems to downgrade one type of citizen, one type of identity against others. Or upgrade one over the others.

Lastly, you should analyse why many Hindus like me do not want to give importance to caste anymore. Why as a reddy I would prefer death to supporting some one like Jagan or Naidu. Why as a Hindu I would not support Congress anymore.

Progress? Civilisation making its winding way into the future? And since when were Hindus Congress supporters? The party line is that they won elections by cultivating the Muslim vote, and pandered to the orthodox Muslims who are supposed to have dominated the community in order to win votes.

The error opposition is doing is thinking people like me are in minority - until you become rational in your thinking, this current BJP dominance will continue. Like I stated, it's a Hobson's choice mate.

Of the 41% who voted BJP/NPA last general elections, the hard-core saffron constituency was between 13 to 16%, the economically-disappointed and aspirational lower middle class most of whom represented the flood of the rural aspirant to the cities from 47 onwards was another 20%, and the bitterly hostile to the Congress or to the Communists (for hugely different reasons in the two cases) between 5 to 7%.

I hate all the parties equally, as you seem to do, but I vote for someone other than the party currently in power, the opposite of what you seem to be doing.