Prime Minister Modi Fumbles on Pakistan

[jbond197]

Thank you mr modi, in confirming that the indian state is our eternal enemy, it must be dismantled for the future of Islam in South Asia.

Nothing new to hear there!! Mullahs have been saying that since the Islam was born back in 7th century and here we stand strong!! Come and dismantle us, if you are so much itching to do so. Remain assured, you will disappear in thin air in no time.

 

[Rafi]

lol, don't think / don't take chance...... until you wanted to divide into 3 now....First decide who will run PAK, Govt/ PA/ ISI/ Taliban or new kid in block ISISI ?

We are the multi religious and multi cultural Pakistan. no ISIS here, even ISI has many non-Muslim operatives, some of the best are non-Muslim.

Nothing new yo hear there!! Mullahs have been saying so since the Islam was born back in 7th century and here we stand strong!! Come and dismantle us, if you are so much itching to do so. Your will disappear in thin air in no time.

The indian state is artificial - it will die, it is only a matter of time.

 

[possumlot]

I have no blinkers on this matters, I'm not too concerned about red lines & grandstanding if there is actual movement towards a possible solution. That simply seems not to be, red lines & their use then become demonstration of a lack of interest to humour the Pakistanis. Kind of like - No pudding.?....no chair then..!

Which is why this is more than just drawing red lines.

Its the GoI defining boundaries within which it plans to operate. Its a carrot and stick policy in action. Expect a carrot every time you do something good like coming over to attend the swearing in, expect a stick every time you do something naughty like meeting the Hurriyat. Or pudding and chair like you mentioned.

Drawing a boundary makes NO sense if you do not have something to do within it.

I suspect Modi is going to dangle some real juicy carrot for pakistan to get tempted and also start sharpening the pointy end of the stick to make sure the actions is within the boundaries defined.

So far its pakistan who has been dangling the carrot and wielding a very short stick. This is the first time India is going to dangle the carrot, speak softly and hopefully carry a very long stick.

So far Pakistan has been proactive and India has been Reactive. This is the fist time after a long break, India is going to be pro active.

 

[kurup]

Its India that needs most cooperation to keep up with demands of its massive sustainability cycle, neither Pakistan nor China.

Can you explain more on that ??

 

[illusion8]

I have no blinkers on this matters, I'm not too concerned about red lines & grandstanding if there is actual movement towards a possible solution. That simply seems not to be, red lines & their use then become demonstration of a lack of interest to humour the Pakistanis. Kind of like - No pudding.?....no chair then..!

In the ideal world - yes, but diplomacy doesn't work like that. Even the least desirable characters and sides needs to be kept the loop with a continuity in engagement and disengagement. What needs to be done is constantly narrow the goal post and change the field of engagement especially against a shifty and a non reliable opponent. True that nothing concrete will ever come out of such engagements by engaging a volatile entity which has a power centre that isn't in the loop and which constantly looks to derails initiatives and acts nascent...but then there isn't any other alternative to cut the size of the carpet.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Our tough talks are not meant to appease pakistan,



you are more than welcome, you intelligence agencies have been trying for decades now ... you can do that in the future too



Pakistan never ever had desire for peace, the civilian govt might have, can't say the same about military



Lets not talk about mass murder, more people have been killed by pakistan sponsored terrorism, hence you don't have a say
Our country our leader, you think he is De-stabelising deal with it, we have dealed with your dictators and your weak PM's too



sir, you don't think we are aware about the consequences ? what would be more terror attacks ?


situation has been stale-mate since 1998, both are nuclear, even if pakistan gains influence nothing would happen on ground




Sir, India has learned to grow despite pakistan, a friendly pakistan would be helpful but well nothing can be done about it



We don't want influence on Pakistan, we want influence on world trade

Before we indulge in further discussions i will like to make it clear that this is my POV it may or may not represent my gov.

1)I dont think that was my point or is relevant to the para-dime of discussion.

BTW that is understood and so are our talks not meant to appease anyone except our nation and kashmiris.

2) The basic difference b/w yr intel services and ours is that when ever we have actually tried to do it we have been successful. So as The foreign powers leave this region we will focus back all our energies and resources regionally. Right now and from past decade we were to busy and focused on western frontiers and dealing with global and internal threat.

3) Absolute rubbish! Its our civilian leaders who are not sincere or go for their own interests like Nawaz Sharif as he being a businessman himself so his attraction abt india. But the more important question here is that international relations involving the nations of two different countries are not made for interests of individuals or a certain group of individuals. Because such things only work for the time being as long as they are in power and their interests are secured. But once the gov goes and another one comes with his own line of thinking and interests then the relations dont work b/w nation to nation or gov to gov basis for long term. Hence the example of Pak-India relations.

So blaming Armed Forces of ours is futile as no matter how powerful they could be they still are not politicians, bureaucrats, technocrats and judiciary. They are also just an institution in a country like any other.

But still when ever Army is in charge directly the relations have always improved b/w yr and my country. So who is sincere and who is performing is for everyone to see. Besides the civil politicians have influences from outside powers as well and we all know they dont want to see peace in the region which has enormous potential. Like Nawaz Sharif is a well known Saudi puppet. Because his business is there in Middle East and he is a billionaire, he just gave his daughter a grant of 1 billion for her own business. He has a large and popular food business in Saudia Arabia....... Al... something is its name as its in Arabic and difficult to remember. So its obvious from the start what he basically gonna do and to what extent he is gonna work for the interests of Pakistan and Region.

Basically sir its yr bureaucracy which is to be blamed both military and civil. It controls yr governments and is not sincere with yr country and according to our intel network they have quite a decent amount of american influence in them. Im specifically talking abt yr upper civil and military bureaucracy. HINT; what happened in Agra just after the Kargil conflict when Mushy visited in the yr 2000 or 99?

4) LOL why not? If yr gov can call us every second day an epicenter of terrorism then why cant we just him a mass murderer which he actually is? BTW The reasons why people have died here is because of a Global War on Terrorism not for other reasons that He has killed/ or is responsible of and for yr country is a well known place. U know what im talking abt do u?
Also Pakistan was build a country made for muslims of South Asia and is her representative, So thats the basis of the reason why we show our reservations or concerns. So yr saying otherwise that we should mind our own business is not legitimate as u also show concern abt hindus in pak or other minorities so why u have a problem with us in the reciprocal basis?

5) Harassment is more right term. But ball is in yr court we hold nothing more then getting our legitimate interests and territories back. Otherwise yr economic growth will suffer as the goals u have set will not be achieved. As far as we are concern nothing change nor improves.

6) Not entirely true. Its stalled since the end of Kargil conflict in 99. But yr narrative or understanding of exactly what is being stalled is in my view wrong.

Because actually a possibility of an all out war is stalled not a concept of a limited war like yr Cold Start Doctrine.. Yr military planners arent futile or stupid to have wasted enormous amount of resources on military exercises in Rajistan and Punjab area over the past decade for nothing....... There is still a possibility of a limited war concept. But now with Deployment of TNWs from Pakistan has laid that concept to rest was far as we think abt it (we could be wrong too). So now the only door thats open is of a proxy war that is happening and will keep on happening unless someone comes up with even a decisive weapon or grand idea which kills it too.

7) Sure and dont get me wrong all right i do admire what u have achieved even though u look down upon us and try to D-grade our achievements. We still are good enough to appreciate what u have achieved.

But the point here is to what an extent will u grow? Will that be enough to satisfy yr ever demanding masses or feed yr poor and hungry? or that only helps the Ambanis, The Birlas, the Mallyas the Tatas etc etc or will help yr nation in a real way? Because yr country is also a capitalist country afterall. Will that be enough to satisfy 1.2 billion people or a few rich billionaires whose own businesses are always rolling? India isnt all abt how bigger or costlier is the mentions of Shahrukh Khan, Ambani Family etc etc. Yr country is more then that. If u want to know abt the life of yr countrymen then get out of Navi Mumbai or Gurgaon or Chandigarh etc and see where u stand and so are yr needs.

We are all for peace my friend because its in our legitimate interests as our focus is and will remain mainly in western frontiers and internal threat. That being said we cant afford to be backstabber like how yr doing in LOC when we are busy in Operation Zarab e Azab. We basically dont want another front to be opened and unnecessary distraction.

But still i feel yr country's upper bureaucracy is to be blamed and has to make its mind. All our plans abt yr country can still be abandoned if u make peace with us.

We have basically lost interests in yr country yes we have. And we have slowly realized that this is a never ending game and none can really be achieved in the way we like it. Also one of the reasons is that this regional hostility only works for outside powers and we suffer for their benefit. Thats why our Armed forces have shifted their focus and line of thinking(that was done by Musharaf after our kargil experience and changing stances of america towards india and other hostile states. Hence u have seen today our drastically improved relations with Russia, Iran and other regional and Asiatic countries). Its not that force which was under Zia ul Haq or Ayub Khan as those were the ones who were directely trained and recruited from Royal British Indian Army. This is our today's Army which is sincere with Pakistan and Regional stability.

Threat from militants, not from India: Corps Commander Rawalpindi | Terminal X

BTW Corps Commander Rawalpindi is the post only given to the most competent senior Officer from our upper Military Bureaucracy. As because under his command GHQ comes in and the entire Garrisoned City of Rawalpindi and he is a regular in the core commanders meetings with CAOS and Nation Command Authority whose head of State of Pakistan is also a member.

So its not our army who is problematic atleast not anymore. Because we dont basically consider u a main threat.

8) Yes i know that this is one chapter of what u want to achieve globally, but it cant happen without Pakistan on yr side as we will not allow u to grow beyond a certain point. Which will not be enough to satisfy yr global goals.

 

[Ray_of_Hope]

Its nothing new for india as she has cancelled many secretary and minister level bilateral meetings in the past.India has a single reason behind this.``NOT TO LET PAK-INDIA TENSIONS LESSEN AND ULTIMATELY NO SOLUTION TO KASHMIR ISSUE``.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Sorry , last time India moved in 71 , and during Kargil , your Gen shifted shifted his house to china and send PM to US and your FM sending SOS to SA/ UK/ Germany /Russia pleading to stop India. .....and same done after mumbai, reality Hurts



If Indian Intel Started then whole Pak started to go burring , its matter of time.... in 2 years you will start seeing the result , Tooth for an eye and eye for an head, Srilanka was the starting point, bigger embarrassment also coming. How you feel when you PAK diplomats start caught in terror activities?

Indian Intelligence already neutralise most of ISI assets in India , Nepal, Sri lanka and now starting in BD. Coughing your Sri lanka diplomat is one.


Mass murder claim is not proved, he is statesman more rigid then Indra Gandhi , you know well Indra Gandhi and what she did.


Well gaining Influence where? your reach is till Afghan

Can you please list your influence of area , during Kargil , china didn't helped you, did it? But Israel send nuke and ammo along with Russia.
Are you getting New Weapon technology form western world like india getting?



I heard PAK Die to play cricket with india and plea every day in order to get money....Sorry, India has changed in last 20 years and please come back to reality.

Problem is most of your ppl talk with facts and figure and only talk fancy dreams

sure kid yr right as always. we are a failed state with nothing better to do then to die.

Satisfied? Now run away.

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

sure kid yr right as always. we are a failed state with nothing better to do then to die.

Satisfied? Now run away.

Sorry ....to bust your dream bubble ....... Not failed ... but sure your country count along with Libya/afgan etc .... where no one can say will rule today / next day / or day after tomorrow.

 

[Ray_of_Hope]

.. where no one can say will rule today / next day / or day after tomorrow.

Dream on kiddo......as u can do nothing about ur dreams

 

[Echo_419]

Prime Minister Modi Fumbles on Pakistan
By THE EDITORIAL BOARDAUG. 19, 2014

India’s prime minister, Narendra Modi, fumbled an early test of leadership this week when he canceled a high-level meeting with Pakistan. There are no two countries in the world that need to talk, and talk regularly, more than these nuclear-armed South Asian neighbors whose tensions must be carefully managed.

Mr. Modi raised expectations that he would work harder at resolving cross-border differences when he took the unorthodox step of inviting Pakistan’s prime minister, Nawaz Sharif, along with other regional leaders to his inauguration in May. The photo of the two men shaking hands came to symbolize the promise of that moment.

But that felicitous picture seemed a fading memory when, on Monday, India canceled foreign-secretary-level talks, which would have been the first in two years, that were scheduled to take place in Islamabad on Aug. 25. The proximate cause was India’s anger over a meeting that Pakistan’s ambassador to India held with a separatist leader from Kashmir, the disputed territory over which the two countries have fought three wars.

But there were other factors as well. Since Mr. Modi took office, violations of a 2003 cease-fire along the Line of Control, the India-Pakistan border in Kashmir, have grown more frequent, 30 by India’s count, 57 by Pakistan’s. Meanwhile, political rhetoric has grown more strident. In his toughest statement on Pakistan to date, Mr. Modi last week charged that Pakistan “has lost the strength to fight a conventional war but continues to engage in the proxy war of terrorism.” He even chose a politically charged venue for his remarks, the border town of Kargil, where the two sides fought in 1999.

Pakistan may not have helped matters by scheduling a meeting with the separatist leader from Kashmir before the talks with India, especially if, as Indian’s foreign ministry suggested, India was undertaking “serious initiatives to move bilateral ties forward.” Pakistan has had regular contact with Kashmiri separatist leaders over the years, and previous Indian prime ministers, including the last prime minister from Mr. Modi’s Bharatiya Janata Party, Atal Bihari Vajayee, lived with the practice.

A more plausible excuse is India’s mounting irritation with the border violations and the possibility that they could disrupt elections in Kashmir expected in October and November. These are unquestionably problems in a volatile region, and both sides are justified in calling for the shooting to stop. India also has legitimate concerns about the willingness of Pakistan, especially its army, to tolerate if not encourage anti-India attacks by extremist groups, like the 2008 bombing in Mumbai.

But canceling the meeting was an overreaction on India’s part, especially when it could have served as an opportunity to discuss grievances and press for a solution. Absent such an airing, there is a tendency on both sides to escalate the tensions, with the Indian news media emphasizing Mr. Modi’s willingness to take a tough stand and Pakistan asserting it was not “subservient” to India.

There will always be political excuses not to take risks. Both leaders have challenges at home, but Mr. Modi, who won a huge victory in the May election, is in the strongest political position, while Mr. Sharif is facing street protests led by politicians seeking his ouster.

What’s needed is a meeting between the leaders to establish a continuing dialogue. Next month’s United Nations General Assembly meeting in New York offers a good venue. It would be foolish and dangerous to let this episode destroy the chance for a more stable relationship.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/20/opinion/prime-minister-modi-fumbles-on-pakistan.html?smid=tw-share

You hold talks with our enemies & expect us to stay silent

 

[jbond197]

The indian state is artificial - it will die, it is only a matter of time.

Sure your wish but won't happen in Pakistan's lifetime!!

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

We have basically lost interests in yr country yes we have. And we have slowly realized that this is a never ending game and none can really be achieved in the way we like it. Also one of the reasons is that this regional hostility only works for outside powers and we suffer for their benefit. Thats why our Armed forces have shifted their focus and line of thinking(that was done by Musharaf after our kargil experience and changing stances of america towards india and other hostile states. Hence u have seen today our drastically improved relations with Russia, Iran and other regional and Asiatic countries). Its not that force which was under Zia ul Haq or Ayub Khan as those were the ones who were directely trained and recruited from Royal British Indian Army. This is our today's Army which is sincere with Pakistan and Regional stability.

Threat from militants, not from India: Corps Commander Rawalpindi | Terminal X

BTW Corps Commander Rawalpindi is the post only given to the most competent senior Officer from our upper Military Bureaucracy. As because under his command GHQ comes in and the entire Garrisoned City of Rawalpindi and he is a regular in the core commanders meetings with CAOS and Nation Command Authority whose head of State of Pakistan is also a member.

So its not our army who is problematic atleast not anymore. Because we dont basically consider u a main threat.

8) Yes i know that this is one chapter of what u want to achieve globally, but it cant happen without Pakistan on yr side as we will not allow u to grow beyond a certain point. Which will not be enough to satisfy yr global goals.

This is myth , PAK only want some time so they can concentrate on this business... after 50 years suddenly PA realise that its enemy is not India.

India is on the verge of becoming major power, India already into global forum , with PAK to without PAK - WTO/ BRICS / ASEAN are just few example....[/quote][/quote]

 

[Mr.S.Singh]

Before we indulge in further discussions i will like to make it clear that this is my POV it may or may not represent my gov.

It is understood bruv, non of our points are our govts

1)I dont think that was my point or is relevant to the para-dime of discussion.

BTW that is understood and so are our talks not meant to appease anyone except our nation and kashmiris.

Sir lets talk relevant here, India is pissed off because you are talking to separatist, now even if you tell me they are representatives they don't even hold minority seats in the assembly hence neither they are Representative of people of kashmir nor the masses. They are even tried in courts for having links with terrorists

2) The basic difference b/w yr intel services and ours is that when ever we have actually tried to do it we have been successful. So as The foreign powers leave this region we will focus back all our energies and resources regionally. Right now and from past decade we were to busy and focused on western frontiers and dealing with global and internal threat.

Sir your success has not beared fruits, terror attacks yes, point is Kashmir is still part of India
Now looking at our agencies, they were toothless and without power, the man in the helm now have given substantial power to the agencies.

3) Absolute rubbish! Its our civilian leaders who are not sincere or go for their own interests like Nawaz Sharif as he being a businessman himself so his attraction abt india. But the more important question here is that international relations involving the nations of two different countries are not made for interests of individuals or a certain group of individuals. Because such things only work for the time being as long as they are in power and their interests are secured. But once the gov goes and another one comes with his own line of thinking and interests then the relations dont work b/w nation to nation or gov to gov basis for long term. Hence the example of Pak-India relations.

So blaming Armed Forces of ours is futile as no matter how powerful they could be they still are not politicians, bureaucrats, technocrats and judiciary. They are also just an institution in a country like any other.
But still when ever Army is in charge directly the relations have always improved b/w yr and my country. So who is sincere and who is performing is for everyone to see. Besides the civil politicians have influences from outside powers as well and we all know they dont want to see peace in the region which has enormous potential. Like Nawaz Sharif is a well known Saudi puppet. Because his business is there in Middle East and he is a billionaire, he just gave his daughter a grant of 1 billion for her own business. He has a large and popular food business in Saudia Arabia....... Al... something is its name as its in Arabic and difficult to remember. So its obvious from the start what he basically gonna do and to what extent he is gonna work for the interests of Pakistan and Region.

i don't talk about your institutes i am just referring to a fact that we have talked to all govt's in pakistan be it a weak civilian govt or a dictator, so i don't think pakistan should be complain about modi

Modi infact is a challenge because no other India PM apart from Indira Gandhi was as powerful as him, this guy will take decisions in seconds won't wait for a month to make his point.

Basically sir its yr bureaucracy which is to be blamed both military and civil. It controls yr governments and is not sincere with yr country and according to our intel network they have quite a decent amount of american influence in them. Im specifically talking abt yr upper civil and military bureaucracy. HINT; what happened in Agra just after the Kargil conflict when Mushy visited in the yr 2000 or 99?

What would the bureaucracy do when you have a weak leader at the helm ? Decision are enforced by PM's to bureaucrat

4) LOL why not? If yr gov can call us every second day an epicenter of terrorism then why cant we just him a mass murderer which he actually is? BTW The reasons why people have died here is because of a Global War on Terrorism not for other reasons that He has killed/ or is responsible of and for yr country is a well known place. U know what im talking abt do u?
Also Pakistan was build a country made for muslims of South Asia and is her representative, So thats the basis of the reason why we show our reservations or concerns. So yr saying otherwise that we should mind our own business is not legitimate as u also show concern abt hindus in pak or other minorities so why u have a problem with us in the reciprocal basis?

Indian supreme court says he is innocent btw
I am not talking about people being killed in pakistan, i am talking about funding and cross border terrorism in India

5) Harassment is more right term. But ball is in yr court we hold nothing more then getting our legitimate interests and territories back. Otherwise yr economic growth will suffer as the goals u have set will not be achieved. As far as we are concern nothing change nor improves.

our growth figures do not take into consideration friendship with out neighbors, there won't be any adverse effect

6) Not entirely true. Its stalled since the end of Kargil conflict in 99. But yr narrative or understanding of exactly what is being stalled is in my view wrong.

By stale-mate i mean both have become nuclear power, hence nothing more can happen

7) Sure and dont get me wrong all right i do admire what u have achieved even though u look down upon us and try to D-grade our achievements. We still are good enough to appreciate what u have achieved.

But the point here is to what an extent will u grow? Will that be enough to satisfy yr ever demanding masses or feed yr poor and hungry? or that only helps the Ambanis, The Birlas, the Mallyas the Tatas etc etc or will help yr nation in a real way? Because yr country is also a capitalist country afterall. Will that be enough to satisfy 1.2 billion people or a few rich billionaires whose own businesses are always rolling? India isnt all abt how bigger or costlier is the mentions of Shahrukh Khan, Ambani Family etc etc. Yr country is more then that. If u want to know abt the life of yr countrymen then get out of Navi Mumbai or Gurgaon or Chandigarh etc and see where u stand and so are yr needs..

and do you think peace with pakistan would provide exuberant growth figures ? India anyways spends-less than 2% of defense, even after peace with pakistan we would spend the same amount as we face china
Pakistan is no more a deciding factor when it comes to defense spending, it is a defense concern.

We are all for peace my friend because its in our legitimate interests as our focus is and will remain mainly in western frontiers and internal threat. That being said we cant afford to be backstabber like how yr doing in LOC when we are busy in Operation Zarab e Azab. We basically dont want another front to be opened and unnecessary distraction.

lets not get into these, you blame us, we blame you
For you we are the backstabbers and for is it is you

We have basically lost interests in yr country yes we have. And we have slowly realized that this is a never ending game and none can really be achieved in the way we like it. Also one of the reasons is that this regional hostility only works for outside powers and we suffer for their benefit. Thats why our Armed forces have shifted their focus and line of thinking(that was done by Musharaf after our kargil experience and changing stances of america towards india and other hostile states. Hence u have seen today our drastically improved relations with Russia, Iran and other regional and Asiatic countries). Its not that force which was under Zia ul Haq or Ayub Khan as those were the ones who were directely trained and recruited from Royal British Indian Army. This is our today's Army which is sincere with Pakistan and Regional stability..

I agree, this is because pakistan currently faces internal threat, when this threat eliminates we all know who will be in focus

8) Yes i know that this is one chapter of what u want to achieve globally, but it cant happen without Pakistan on yr side as we will not allow u to grow beyond a certain point. Which will not be enough to satisfy yr global goals.

pakistan has done little and can do little to do it, you can't bloack our trade
lets face it ... how can you stop india from trading ?

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

Now US started, But us US has no influence over MODI ...better try next time.

US in touch with India, Pakistan over resumption of talks
US in touch with India, Pakistan over resumption of talks - Hindustan Times