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Potential turbo-prop for PAF - Calidus B-250

Hi,

Combat pilot or otherwise---they are still not mercenaries. Over here brother hood---religion---similar ideology is a factor---.

Was Tariq Bin Ziyyad a mercenary---. Were the hundustani muslims going to Turkey to fight during Khilafat movement mercenaries---?
Whatever you say so sir. I had the opportunity to work there so I saw it a little differently but all of us have our own views. I respect yours...

I wouldn't know....I never looked at that piece of history....

Cheers !!!
 
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We need equipment capable of dual use since no once seems to care for or address the elephant in the room that is the VERY limited budget of Pakistan.

Hi Oscar,

I agree with this. That is the elephant in the room. But perhaps its an elephant that needs closer scrutiny. 15 attack helicopters, say at $30 million each is - $450 million dollars. This disregards cost of foreign spare parts and other costs.

What are 15 attack helicopters going to do in a war? Probably 3 are going to be down on maintenance. The rotor blades show up on radar like giant windmills.

With $450 million and a locally designed CAS platform at $5 to $7 million you would get 65 to 90 airframes. Would be easy to maintain and given local production, spare parts would be much less of an issue.

Taking an average, with 78 airframes, a single pass, given the area weapons Pakistan has developed (I think you are proud of these?) you would devastate Indian armor. A single pass would end a war.

Some other aspects of the elephant we are studying. If you develop such an aircraft, the only rival it would have in the export market is the A-1 super tucanos. Which were converted from being trainers, and never built from the ground up as CAS. Super Tucanos cost 10-12 million each.

JF-17 has 4 major rivals in the export market. This aircraft would only have one major rival. And given the nature of conflicts and the large number of conflicts going on, such aircraft would sell like hot cakes. Should a trainer be needed as a speed equivalent replacement of the Tweets, you'd have that bagged as well.

Should you need CAS for counter insurgency, you'd have a huge fleet. And any commander who fought in the war against the TTP will tell you that CAS was never enough, they wish they had 10 times what they had. They would get exactly that.

If you think about it logically and do your research, its a really valuable proposition, imho. I've been studying this specific issue for 13 odd years and for me its a no brainer.

You don't even have to reinvent the wheel...
 

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I don't think weaponized fixed wing aircraft can match the accuracy of the turret gun on Gunship helicopters so for COIN there will always be helicopters. One of the most important functions for gunship helicopters is escort and clearing of hostiles for troop helicopters, and a gunship helicopter can do that better than a fast mover.

If Pakistan wanted a COIN propeller aircraft they could have made one themself long ago. MFI-17 Saab Supporter was a COIN variant of the Saab Safari for which PAC acquired sole rights in 1981 and rebranded as Mushak, Super Mushak is the heavily modified improved variant.

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Sharing Super Mashak cockpit from PAC website, adding a HUD on there doesn't seem too far off if needed.
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@GriffinsRule well met my friend, you seem to have gone down the same paths and reached very similar destinations. Was reading through this thread and its always fascinating to see someone find a hidden solution in the same way as one has, despite all the naysayers.
 
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I don't think weaponized fixed wing aircraft can match the accuracy of the turret gun on Gunship helicopters so for COIN there will always be helicopters. One of the most important functions for gunship helicopters is escort and clearing of hostiles for troop helicopters, and a gunship helicopter can do that better than a fast mover.

If Pakistan wanted a COIN propeller aircraft they could have made one themself long ago. MFI-17 Saab Supporter was a COIN variant of the Saab Safari for which PAC acquired sole rights in 1981 and rebranded as Mushak, Super Mushak is the heavily modified improved variant.

Compare the max weapons load between the MFI-17 Mushshak and a propeller driven CAS aircraft and you will see there is not even a competition between the two.

Here ... from Wikipedia itself, for the Mushshak, it is only 660lb maximum!
  • Hardpoints: 6× under-wing, maximum external load 300 kg (660 lb) total
  • Possible loads:
    • 2× 7.62 mm machine gun pods
    • 2× 75 mm unguided rocket pod (7 rounds)
    • 4× 68 mm unguided rocket pod (7 rounds)

For the Super Tucano it is 3,300lbs! And thats not including the internal cannons.
  • Hardpoints: 5 (two under each wing and one under fuselage centreline) with a capacity of 1,550 kg (3,300 lb)

COIN/CAS aircraft are not meant to replace the attack helicopters but to supplement them. They are however better to use then expensive (per flight hour) jets that PAF has been using and is likely to keep using in the forseable future. At least that was my point for making this thread.

As for your assertion that a gunship can provide better support to ground troops is a fallacy. Just look at the A-10 for some insight. They also have more versatile weapons load available to them in form of heavier Anti-tank/bunker weapons like the AGM-65s, but also PGM like the Paveway series ... not to mention they are fully capable to operating at night due to a fully NVG cockpit and FLIR for targetting and recon in the form of AN/AAQ-22 Star SAFIRE II system.

Anyways, since PAF/PA is "broke" they choose to buy 4 Mi-35s for $150 million.

@GriffinsRule well met my friend, you seem to have gone down the same paths and reached very similar destinations. Was reading through this thread and its always fascinating to see someone find a hidden solution in the same way as one has, despite all the naysayers.

Thanks. It is refreshing to see a good idea or an informative post that you can learn from so I try to contribute where I think its valid. Yes, lot of points against CAS aircraft in this thread, but besides the budget being limited, I found none of them valid. But that is okay, as I don't mind having people not agreeing with me on something and vice versa. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
 
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Thanks. It is refreshing to see a good idea or an informative post that you can learn from so I try to contribute where I think its valid. Yes, lot of points against CAS aircraft in this thread, but besides the budget being limited, I found none of them valid. But that is okay, as I don't mind having people not agreeing with me on something and vice versa. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.


Even the "budget being limited" is not a logical idea given how much money is spent on attack helicopters. CAS planes are, from an engineering point of view, always going to be cheaper than CAS helicopters, due to the inherent complexities and aerodynamics of a helicopter vs a aeroplane.

Just look at the price lists of attack helicopters...

The real reason that is being left unsaid, is that Pakistan weapons procurement is not innovative but based on following the approach of others. If India gets something, Pakistan must. If the US doesn't like a certain weapon system, Pakistan is unlikely to want it. Its a mindset issue.

Now, if India gets a horde of Su-25s, rest assured Pakistan will find something to add to its inventory.

The reason the US doesn't use such an aircraft is missed because the nuances were never considered. Viz:

1. Flying CAS in contested airspace is not something the US worries about. It assumes it will establish dominance before flying CAS. Meaning, flying low, popping up, delivering the business and scooting hasn't been considered as a CAS strategy since the Cold War era.

2. The USAF has had a major rivalry with the US Army regarding CAS. The USAF has constantly tried (and suceeded) in making sure that fixed wing CAS is not allowed to the US Army. This forced the US Army to use helicopters instead. This is well documented and a historical truth.

3. The original claim and "invention" of contemporary attack helicopters was the Vietnam war. In this war, the US tried a new kind of maneuver warfare using helicopters instead of tanks and motorized infantry. The idea didn't quite work out in that scale, and was largely abandoned after Vietnam (as seen in the Iraq wars). Best practices were taken and a small unit utilization was conceived, which is what we see today. The original idea of the Cobra was to act as an escort for troop transport helicopters in this heli-blitzkreig scenario. The Cobra survived this blunder of an idea simply because the US army isn't allowed to operate fixed wing CAS, and the US Army was adamant it needed its own CAS platforms. This is not to say that attack helicopters don't have anything to offer - they do - but its a niche offering.

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People like you and me have existed before us proposing the same concept. I've done so for 13 odd years. But before me others have. See James Burton of Pentagon Wars fame, for instance.

"...the intelligence community was claiming that the Soviets had adopted the German blitzkrieg tactics from World War II and would swiftly and easily "blitz" western Europe if war broke out. (It is no coincidence that the intelligence community began using the term blitzkrieg after Boyd's briefing became popular.) The Soviets, according to intelligence reports, had a tremendous advantage in numbers of tanks and infantrymen at their disposal. When these superior numbers were combined with blitzkrieg tactics, the Soviets were portrayed as being almost unbeatable. Exaggerating a threat to justify new wonder weapons was, and still is, a common practice.
The Air Force's answer to this bloated Soviet threat was a new fighter-bomber called the Enhanced Tactical Fighter, a proposed night all-weather interdiction aircraft. In the view of the Air Force, the word enhanced referred to the new technologies planned for the plane. In my view, it referred to the costs. This plane was being designed to destroy Soviet tanks deep behind enemy lines and destroy them before they could get to the front and exploit any breakthroughs that would occur (night, all-weather interdiction). The price was a mere $50 million per airplane.
As it happened, I was putting together my proposal for a new airplane at that time (March 1978). My proposal was exactly the opposite of the $50 million plane. I prepared an advocacy briefing that called for the development of a small, simple, lethal, and relatively cheap airplane that would be designed solely for close support of the ground troops who would be engaged with Soviet tanks and armor. Because the intelligence community was making such a big deal about how difficult it would be to stop the Soviet blitzkrieg, I named this airplane the "Blitzfighter". Rather catchy, I thought.
Everything about my proposal, including the plane that would be used, was diametrically opposed to the prevailing philosophy relating to the new wonder weapons of the Air Force. I wanted an airplane in the 5,000- to10,000-pound class (one-tenth the weight of the Enhanced Tactical Fighter), one smaller than any combat airplane in the inventory (one-fourth the size of the A-10), and one that cost less than $2 million. At this price, we could flood the battlefield with swarms of airplanes.


In June of 1978, Burton sure as hell did "Make them work for it". He was present during a briefing in which Brig. Gen. Richard "Dick" Phillips (and he IS a dick, as you'll soon see) tried to sell the Enhanced Tactical Fighter to Dr. Jack Martin, the Air Force Assistant Secretary for Research, Development. Brig. Gen. Phillips and his associates presented *deliberately* falsified numbers on the ETF to Dr. Martin, and Col. Burton called him on it. Dr. Martin made a few phone calls on the spot to check the numbers, and verified that Col. Burton's numbers were correct --- and that Brig. Gen. Phillip's numbers were a lie.
Afterwards, Phillips met with Burton in the Pentagon hallway outside Dr. Martin's office, and congratulated him for his good stewardship of the US taxpayer's dollars;
"Needless to say, General Phillips was not happy with me. I was soon braced up against the wall of the "E" ring. With his forefinger pounding my breastbone like a jackhammer, and his nose about one inch from mine, he let me know that I was dog mean and that several other generals would have a feast when I came back into the "blue suit" Air Force.
Then, the paranoia surfaced: "You're not going to ram that F___ing Blitzfighter down our throats like your friends did the F-16!" They were still smarting over that coup.
"


Read Mr. Burton's own words here:

http://www.combatreform.org/killerbees.htm


And if we look further back, we go back to the brilliant idea-driven warriors of Germany who came up with the Stuka dive bombers, fought for it as a concept, and changed the trajectory of history itself.
 
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I thought I would revive this thread with one post...
How about integrating GEK onto B-250 Bader? It Would be a cheap SOW carrier where many bombs can be launched from inside Pakistan while not burdening JF-17 on strike missions.
If you could dual rack the rocket pod hardpoint and dual rack the centerline hardpoint as well as the hardpoint directly next to the wheel you could have 14 REKs available for dropping.
4902669_original.jpg
 
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I thought I would revive this thread with one post...
How about integrating GEK onto B-250 Bader? It Would be a cheap SOW carrier where many bombs can be launched from inside Pakistan while not burdening JF-17 on strike missions.
If you could dual rack the rocket pod hardpoint and dual rack the centerline hardpoint as well as the hardpoint directly next to the wheel you could have 14 REKs available for dropping.
4902669_original.jpg
I agree with you. In a long war attrition can really be a thorn in the flesh. Overwhelming the enemy is a good ploy. Ofcourse pilots lives will be at stake regardless which equipment he flies but JF-17 and mirages will be allowed to live to fight another day.
 
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Hi Oscar,

I agree with this. That is the elephant in the room. But perhaps its an elephant that needs closer scrutiny. 15 attack helicopters, say at $30 million each is - $450 million dollars. This disregards cost of foreign spare parts and other costs.

What are 15 attack helicopters going to do in a war? Probably 3 are going to be down on maintenance. The rotor blades show up on radar like giant windmills.

With $450 million and a locally designed CAS platform at $5 to $7 million you would get 65 to 90 airframes. Would be easy to maintain and given local production, spare parts would be much less of an issue.

Taking an average, with 78 airframes, a single pass, given the area weapons Pakistan has developed (I think you are proud of these?) you would devastate Indian armor. A single pass would end a war.

Some other aspects of the elephant we are studying. If you develop such an aircraft, the only rival it would have in the export market is the A-1 super tucanos. Which were converted from being trainers, and never built from the ground up as CAS. Super Tucanos cost 10-12 million each.

JF-17 has 4 major rivals in the export market. This aircraft would only have one major rival. And given the nature of conflicts and the large number of conflicts going on, such aircraft would sell like hot cakes. Should a trainer be needed as a speed equivalent replacement of the Tweets, you'd have that bagged as well.

Should you need CAS for counter insurgency, you'd have a huge fleet. And any commander who fought in the war against the TTP will tell you that CAS was never enough, they wish they had 10 times what they had. They would get exactly that.

If you think about it logically and do your research, its a really valuable proposition, imho. I've been studying this specific issue for 13 odd years and for me its a no brainer.

You don't even have to reinvent the wheel...

Hi,

An older post from you---. Well---it does not work that way---. Each and every weapons system has its utility and function---and the whole cannot be complete without the smaller parts---.

So---to maintain and manage the system in a functional and operational manner---timely decisions have to be taken and those who do not---need to be brought to task---.

That is why---you have to buy equipment in a timely manner and that also from a reliable resource---.

You talked about helicopters---ok---we sign a contract with Turkey---turkey had on going bad relationship with the USA---engine supplier---we had bad relationship with USA---sanctions---and yet we signed with them rather than the sure thing the chinese---.

The gunship helicopters are an extremely deadly war machine---the close air support small aircraft cannot match the power of destruction of a combat helicopter---.
 
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Hi,

An older post from you---. Well---it does not work that way---. Each and every weapons system has its utility and function---and the whole cannot be complete without the smaller parts---.

So---to maintain and manage the system in a functional and operational manner---timely decisions have to be taken and those who do not---need to be brought to task---.

That is why---you have to buy equipment in a timely manner and that also from a reliable resource---.

You talked about helicopters---ok---we sign a contract with Turkey---turkey had on going bad relationship with the USA---engine supplier---we had bad relationship with USA---sanctions---and yet we signed with them rather than the sure thing the chinese---.

The gunship helicopters are an extremely deadly war machine---the close air support small aircraft cannot match the power of destruction of a combat helicopter---.

I would say it is the other way around. And the only reason there are gun ship helicopters is because of Vietnam, where they were first developed to escort other helicopters, in US utilization of heliborne forces. CAS fixed wing was too fast to escort them, thus they created a new requirement.

Later on, using attack helicopters became a fad, one mainly because of a strange US bureaucratic rule - that the army cannot own fixed wing armed aircraft it can use for CAS. This rule forced the US army to move towards attack helicopters, and the world followed suit.

To date, attack helicopters are a niche product. They are good at mountain terrain, and increasingly a liability in the world of AWACs because of those huge rotor blades.

We have yet to see a successful use of attack helicopters in a peer vs peer conflict.

But the legacy of fixed wing CAS is much longer and filled with a long litany of game-changing usage.

pound for pound, putting bombs on target, there is no cost or efficiency comparison between helicopters and fixed wing - the latter always technically wins the cost per pound comparisons.
 
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We might as well go full WW1 , level and bring back horses and swords
Instead of innovating our own Helicopter engine and craft and Vertical lift off fighter jet

Helicopter Gunships are what we need to airlift troops and weapons :coffee:

We are not fighting a WW1 era battles

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I disagree completely. If drones were such a great tool, why do we need attack helicopters even for example?
Drones are not only limited in their endurance, they also dont carry useful loads. Unless you have a drone that can do straffing runs to suppress enemy combatants or stay on station and be able to respond to different threats or calls for support. Besides, having a human pilot in a cockpit gives you significantly more situational awareness than any FLIR would do to any operator sitting behind a computer screen.

These platforms are different and for a reason. If that wasnt the case, countries would not be spending money on developing these



You are wrong in each of your paragraphs. These planes would actually be safer then the ancient Cobras we have been using in such missions for the last 10 years btw not to mention they give us precision night attack capability that right now only our F-16s have.

People in UAE are not stupid to be investing in these or the AT-802s. And they are not the only ones. Why do you the USAF is spending time and effort on its OA-X program for exactly such a role? As for war in Libya, that is exactly how we would be using them as well, in our border areas next to Afghanistan.

And lastly, I am not sure what you mean by not requiring a command and control infrastructure like drone? Do you think PAF or PA or any other country for that matter flies any of its assets willy-nilly without a C&C structure in place? Do we fly Mushshak and K-8 around without any C&C behind them? In fact this airplane offers a lot more in terms of capabilities, that PA/PAF sorely are in short supply of.
Its simple
Drone for high endurance but limited war
Attack for low endurance and high potency war
Pakistan use to face the later but not any more
Libya, iraq and syria faces the later ...

So all areas are cleanedup... u now need drones that can be in air for 20+ hours though... . they are limited to just 1-2 missles but thats all you need now..you aint doing a clean up operation anymore...u dont need to endless shell enemey positions..u just need to hunt the leadership
 
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Its simple
Drone for high endurance but limited war
Attack for low endurance and high potency war
Pakistan use to face the later but not any more
Libya, iraq and syria faces the later ...

So all areas are cleanedup... u now need drones that can be in air for 20+ hours though... . they are limited to just 1-2 missles but thats all you need now..you aint doing a clean up operation anymore...u dont need to endless shell enemey positions..u just need to hunt the leadership

Drone use for surveillance or ISR is not the same as drone use for CAS missions. That is the distinction I was drawing.
 
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Drone use for surveillance or ISR is not the same as drone use for CAS missions. That is the distinction I was drawing.
No definitively drone cant be used for close air support in traditional sense..but we dont need an CAS against terrorists any more and its useless against india..
We need assests in air that can be called immediately with very high loitering time even if the fire power is minuscule it...
 
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I would not discount the need for such aircraft to arise again on our Afghan border as ISIS remains a threat for us, as well as remnants of BLA.
 
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