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Post-revolution Egypt: India as a model.

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Post-revolution Egypt: India as a model, Part 2/3 - The Egyptian Gazette
By Mohamed Elmasry
Thursday, January 17, 2013 12:00:08 PM

During my recent visit to India, I was pleased
to learn that Cyberabad is the name appropriately given to the new high-tech area of the historical city of Hyderabad. The city of Hydrabad, some 600km southeast of Mumbai on the banks of the Musi River is today India’s fifth largest city with a population of 8 million.

Its population doubled in the last 10 years because of Cyberabad (Cyber City) which
attracted educated young engineers from all
over India. The city is home to more than
1,300 IT firms, including Microsoft (operating
its largest R&D campus outside the US), Google and IBM. During 2008–09, Hyderabad's IT exports reached US$ 4.7 billion.

Several scientific technical institutes have been set up here including the National Geophysical Institute and the Remote Sensing Agency, making Hyderabad a major science center as well. Many defence research centres are located here and the city is also the seat of the Osmania University and the Central University of Hyderabad.

In 2009, the World Bank Group ranked the city as the second best Indian city for doing business and today the city is the fifth largest contributor to India’s overall GDP.

The emergence of the pharmaceutical and biotechnology industries earned the city the
titles of "India's pharmaceutical capital" and
the "Genome Valley of India". Although the city in the world of entertainment is not a major competitor to Mumbai’s Bollywood, the Telugu film industry is based here.
The historical city was founded in 1500s by the Mogul but ruled independently by Nizam- al-Mulik, a Mugal viceroy and his descendants starting from the year 1724.

The state of Hyderabad at the time of Nizams was India’s biggest and richest princely state, as large as England and Scotland put together. Today, it is divided among the states of Karnataka, Maharashtra, and Andhra Pradesh with the city of Hydrabad as its capital. The former British cantonment of Secunderabad is now its twin city and separated from it by the man-made lake of Hussain Sagar which was built in 1562.


The Nizams used the wealth generated mainly from the emerald and diamond mines to build hospitals, universities and government buildings in addition to palaces and royal grave yards; all constitute today the city of Hydrabad historical buildings and define its fascinating unique Muslim architecture including Charminar at its
centre, the Golconda fort, the Qutb Shahi Tombs and Mecca Masjid. Osman Ali Khan, the 7th Nizam, is called the maker of modern Hyderabad because of his patronage of architecture in the city. In 2012, the government of India declared Hyderabad as the first Best heritage city of India.

The city was known as the City of Pearls and until the 18th century the city was the only global trading centre for large diamonds.
Industrialisation began under the Nizams in
the late 19th century, helped by railway expansion that connected the city with major
ports.

The Nizam dynasty was forced to accede to
British protection in 1798. In 1903, Berar, then the northernmost section of the state, was transferred to British administration. When India was partitioned in 1947, the Nizams, one of India's most important Muslim princes, wished to remain independent. But the Indian army invaded
Hyderabad in 1948. The population, in a plebiscite, endorsed accession to India.

Hyderabad became a state in 1950 but was
partitioned among neighboring states in 1956. The Nizams were forced to renounce all of their fortune to the Indian government and were removed from power.

Before I left the city, I visited the Mecca Masjid, India’s second largest and oldest mosque after that of Delhi, the city’s Muslim area and I had a delicious lunch of Hayderabadi Biryani, but at its very mild version.

Elmasry is a professor emeritus of computer
engineering, University of Waterloo.
He can be reached at
elmasry@thecanadiancharger.com
 
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Post-revolution Egypt: India as a model, Part 2/3 - The Egyptian Gazette
By Mohamed Elmasry
Thursday, January 17, 2013 12:00:08 PM

During my recent visit to India, I was pleased
to learn that Cyberabad is the name appropriately given to the new high-tech area of the historical city of Hyderabad. ....

Can't do that, brother Masri, can't do that.

Here is the reason,


Indian model of governance has few main pillars that hold this HUGE mass of 1+ billions together and keep their economy going.

1. Uniquely inwards looking Indian nationalism that still allows Indians to settle in UK/US as loyal citizens
2. 200+ years old families of businessmen who are very very good at managing money across generations
3. Very large English speaking class who is very humble and welcoming to Westerners
4. Centuries old traditions of producing math/engineering whiz kids
5. HUGE amount of pro-Western expat Indians who bring home outsourced businesses



Egypt on the other hand (like many poverty stricken African/Muslim countries) does not possess these important and core strengths.

1. Egyptians are mad after the globo-Islamo-fascism (watch out the brother-hood-hood party)
2. Egyptian economy is infested with very powerful unions that will put a quick end to businessmen who try to snatch away their powers
3. Islamism makes it difficult for a relatively small number of Egyptians to be loyal to their Western host countries (Mohammad Ata the black faced 9 11, who can forget him?)
4. expat Egyptians (and even Pakistanis) bring home the disease of Saudi-outsourced-Islamism (instead of US outsourced businesses)

Please don't take this in a wrong way.

My hopes and prayers are with Egyptians or anyone out there struggling to improve their lot. It is just that they have to fix their habits before trying to say we can copy this or that.


peace
 
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After the revolution in 2011 I had read an article in a Western newspaper that Eygpt could go down either the route of India or Pakistan but like @FaujHistorian said, the situation is much more complex than this and by will alone Eygpt cannot follow India's path. Eygpt needs to build up the fundamentals as has been pointed out.


+ @FaujHistorian great comprehensive post. Nice to see a JR TT member producing the posts one would expect of you guys!
 
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islamic countries need islam to be linked to science, thinking, and modern world (the best parts) if they wish to be a well functioning modern AND muslim state, this is a big challenge initself.

this above notion is actually massively ambitious, because when nasser and mossadegh went the other route to creating a functioning nation by using nationalism, somewhat easier because there were existing models that could be used; the western powers destroyed them, and they destroyed them by using islamic thugs in each case, the islamic thugs are th greatest allies of western nations, and foes of progress for third world people.

to create a fruitful symbiosis of islam, science and nationhood is an even further pipedream than using nationalism to reach a similar goal.


its not a nice thing to say, but i think educated muslims are educated muslims not because of current popular muslim thinking, but in spite of it, there needs to be a greater more resonant connection.
 
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@FaujHistorian I haven't seen even an Indian explaining India better than this in few lines.

Thank you for your kind words

After the revolution in 2011 I had read an article in a Western newspaper that Eygpt could go down either the route of India or Pakistan but like @FaujHistorian said, the situation is much more complex than this and by will alone Eygpt cannot follow India's path. Eygpt needs to build up the fundamentals as has been pointed out.


+ @FaujHistorian great comprehensive post. Nice to see a JR TT member producing the posts one would expect of you guys!

Thank you for your kind words.

What they say "Naql kay lee-ay bhi Aqal cha-hi-ay" (Needs smarts even to copy someone).


peace
 
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Both Pakistan and India are blessed with very modern system of government and populations that are way ahead of any country in the Middle East.

Too bad that even Pakistanis do not realize it that Egyptians, Tunisians, Libyans, Iranians, Afghanistanis etc. need tehrir square because they have nothing, nothing, nothing in terms of modern system of government.

But our Ullu Mullahs like Mullah TuQ TuQ f@rt around and clean-shaven Mullah IK $tupidly boast about tehrir revolution in Pak.

What a non-sense.

Pakistan is decades ahead of Egypt or any Arab country when it comes to institutions both public and private. Sure we have issues like corruption, ineptitude, lawlessness etc.

But all these things must be considered in the context. The context of geo-politics, internal politics, and above all faithlessness (Bay-Imani) about Pakistan.

The day we the citizens of Pakistan understand the following, Pakistan too can progress by leaps and bounds.

1. We understand the concept of Pakistani citizenship and associated responsibilities (and not just personal gain)
2. We have faith in Pakistan (and not just loose talk such as Islamic faith).
3. We direct our youth to be Pakistani first (and not Muslim first).
4. We let our farmers move to industrial age (instead of hounding them with socialist and communist agenda)
5. We let our underperforming industry die a quick death and replace them with efficient ones.
6. We create pro-minority environment (instead of hounding their dead and alive)


These are the "reforms" we really need. Otherwise our bureaucracy, our military, our judiciary, our system of government is decades if not centuries ahead of Middle Eastern kid countries. We just need to let them function and not burden them with new laws and arbitrary actions.


peace
 
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quoting above
" 3. We direct our youth to be Pakistani first (and not Muslim first)"

This point is important, very important for two reasons:-
1) If you teach that you are muslim first, Pakistani youth and citizens can/ and are easily lured by vetsed interest sighting X/Y/Z reasons to work against Pakistan for GOD knows Kayamat tak for the sake of utopian Muslim Umma etc etc.

2) If you teach that you are muslim first, Pakistani Citizen will see the world only from being Muslim point of view and will have natural urge to go around and fight for Muslim causes....and become dubbed as Terrorsit Nation.

Looking Back, zia ul haq really screwed your country. You had better rate of growth and development than India than, That Idiot screwed your nation and many generations ...
 
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One individual can focus on either of one thing (but never on both):

1) his nation's issues and prosperity

2) his religion's issues and prosperity

If you follow 2nd option you will be interfering in the affairs of many other countries and wont be bothered about the state of your country. The religion is a bigger entity and cause then the country. Then the individuals might try to rally for everyone of their faith across the continent and in the process loosing the sight and progress of their own country and also making enemies around the world by interfering in others affairs.

Now the above just boils down to one thing - separation of state and religion. For progress of a nation and free thinking to give results it is important that people are more concerned about their work then trying to convert society to run as per their rules and beliefs. growth and free thinking are inseparable.

majority of Indians it is India first, Family second, Career and then Religion. That is why the progress of the nation. Pakistan was doing good till they were democratic and liberal. The change in the state thinking and spread of conservative elements has shifted the focus of the people from Career/Growth/Free Will to a discourse on whats right and wrong per Islam, and this discourse has no end and can continue for as long as you want.

If a person is always preoccupied in his mind with trying to figure out whats wrong and right per his religion and whether his neighbor is following the religion properly or not then I doubt when will he have time to think about science and development! The mind needs to be absolutely free of these religious contexts to be able to think of things way beyond the grasp of any religions on this earth - Multi Universe, Quantum Physics, Nano Technology, Time Travel :D, Anti Gravity, Space Exploration and the more advanced physics.
 
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@timetravel

That isn't true you know, every religion is based on bonhomie, humanity, brotherhood, tolerance et al ! Now as far as nation building is concerned its the same thing without a religious twist ! As far as Ind is concerned, don't try to sugar coat it btw, its me first then religion & lastly Ind that's why we have no leaders & rampant corruption/anarchy ! The me part includes career which leads us to advanced tech/research & what not !

The point I'm making here is that whilst Pak may seem to be in a state of turmoil ours isn't so much of a different situation except we have more socio-economic issues to tackle rather than security ones as in the case of Pak !
 
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Both Pakistan and India are blessed with very modern system of government and populations that are way ahead of any country in the Middle East.

Too bad that even Pakistanis do not realize it that Egyptians, Tunisians, Libyans, Iranians, Afghanistanis etc. need tehrir square because they have nothing, nothing, nothing in terms of modern system of government.

But our Ullu Mullahs like Mullah TuQ TuQ f@rt around and clean-shaven Mullah IK $tupidly boast about tehrir revolution in Pak.

What a non-sense.

Pakistan is decades ahead of Egypt or any Arab country when it comes to institutions both public and private. Sure we have issues like corruption, ineptitude, lawlessness etc.

But all these things must be considered in the context. The context of geo-politics, internal politics, and above all faithlessness (Bay-Imani) about Pakistan.

The day we the citizens of Pakistan understand the following, Pakistan too can progress by leaps and bounds.

1. We understand the concept of Pakistani citizenship and associated responsibilities (and not just personal gain)
2. We have faith in Pakistan (and not just loose talk such as Islamic faith).
3. We direct our youth to be Pakistani first (and not Muslim first).
4. We let our farmers move to industrial age (instead of hounding them with socialist and communist agenda)
5. We let our underperforming industry die a quick death and replace them with efficient ones.
6. We create pro-minority environment (instead of hounding their dead and alive)


These are the "reforms" we really need. Otherwise our bureaucracy, our military, our judiciary, our system of government is decades if not centuries ahead of Middle Eastern kid countries. We just need to let them function and not burden them with new laws and arbitrary actions.


peace

Religion is always a matter of personal relationship with God. Its between me and the almighty. Who the heck are so called self-proclaimed Mullahs/ preachers? When it comes before one's nation, situations like Syria, Iran-Iraq war etc. arises. Hypothetically speaking, say a Muslim country X (and a highly religious at that) is at war with another Muslim country Y. With a brainwashed and Ummah loving population, X will always be at a disadvantage against Y (having more moderate and nationalistic fighting force). Here comes the conspiracy theories and external forces that can easily recruit jihadists from country X in the name of religion for their vested interests.

Ps: Have to agree with Abingdonboy. Sir, you are a deserving think tank here. Very nice analysis. :tup:
 
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@timetravel

That isn't true you know, every religion is based on bonhomie, humanity, brotherhood, tolerance et al ! Now as far as nation building is concerned its the same thing without a religious twist ! As far as Ind is concerned, don't try to sugar coat it btw, its me first then religion & lastly Ind that's why we have no leaders & rampant corruption/anarchy ! The me part includes career which leads us to advanced tech/research & what not !

The point I'm making here is that whilst Pak may seem to be in a state of turmoil ours isn't so much of a different situation except we have more socio-economic issues to tackle rather than security ones as in the case of Pak !

You know why US is at the top of the technology? because they are liberal and free thinking people. So is true for Japan and other advanced countries. Free mind is a must for pursuit of higher technology. I don't see a person constantly being concerned about his religious duties and whether the next door neighbor is a religious follower or not being able to free his mind for scientific research.

I do agree every religion is based on bonhomie, humanity and brotherhood. But obviously religion and state should be separate. free thinking can only prevail in a state where religion and state are separate.

If I try to mix both there would be only one outcome - the complete energy of society would be wasted in ensuring compliance to the right form of religion. and you know where this would invariably lead to. ever increasing intolerance of anything not thought to be in line with the right version of religion.

scientific minds can never prosper in a controlled society,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolaus_Copernicus
 
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islamic countries need islam to be linked to science, thinking, and modern world (the best parts) if they wish to be a well functioning modern AND muslim state, this is a big challenge initself.


Islam and Science are in two different directions. Otherwise Arabia would have turned into cradle of civilization by now!
Celebrating 1400 years of failure!

As a matter of fact spread of Islam into Levant, Persia and Egypt killed thousands of year of civilizations, science, innovation and knowledge.
 
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