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Possible Russian S-400 sale to India and Pakistan's Response.

trying hard to troll me mulla ji :azn:

View attachment 269318

Mulla bhi kehta hai aur tasveer bhi khaibchta hai salay hahahaha ... hayee lugay gi meri dozakh main jaye ga tu Guru ;) ...
Acha baat sun waisay phans chubhi tau feel ho rahi hai bhai kay dil main hahaha
Dil main aik leher si uthi hai abhi :p
Yaar Guru tu troll na ker main bhi nahin cheeron ga god promis ... aye shappat ;)
 
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Mulla bhi kehta hai aur tasveer bhi khaibchta hai salay hahahaha ... hayee lugay gi meri dozakh main jaye ga tu Guru ;) ...
Acha baat sun waisay phans chubhi tau feel ho rahi hai bhai kay dil main hahaha
Dil main aik leher si uthi hai abhi :p
Yaar Guru tu troll na ker main bhi nahin cheeron ga god promis ... aye shappat ;)
bhai ji mai sadke apki iss masoomiat pe

Zardari-Copy-2-890x395.jpg


but bhai ji mai to trolling kerta hi nahi per aap zaroor ker rahe ho per khair koi gal nahi hum bhi yaaron ke yaar hain :D
 
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offtopic
Open another thread and present your claim with backup and facts and tag me there.

i wasnt talking to you.. its better you talk to you indian mate to open new thread with facts.. i will join it too..
you go off topic and trying to blame Pakistan you will get the same response..
 
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i wasnt talking to you.. its better you talk to you indian mate to open new thread with facts.. i will join it too..
you go off topic and trying to blame Pakistan you will get the same response..
where did i go offtopic in this thread. post the link and compare it with you.

Its a public forum anyone can quote each other, but the topic of the this thread is the pakistani response after the sale of s400. You post the responsive option, I respond if I have doubt, and if you have doubt on my options you can strait away shoot the doubt. Thats how the discussion should be done.
 
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Well i think that we need decoys and stealthy missiles and SLBM SLCM capabilities more than ever let us suppose india deploys all its ABM or missiles defense capabilities to its western and northern borders then we can attack from south we dont need to be involved in arms race with India all we need is deterrence if first strike capabilities is countered we need 2nd strike via Indian ocean let be realistic yes india can spend huge amount but they still cant cover all four sides

Even money is needed to build decoys and Yes you don't need to enter into an arms race since you've nukes.... As for your second strike capabilities.. if you're mentioning SSBN then its missiles still has to deal with S-400, AAD and PAD, don't think we'll put all the batteries near pakistani border. First it'll be deployed along with Indian ABM in all the important City centers then Military Installations.

see the pic below
upload_2015-11-3_13-40-17-png.269151
 
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Sorry to say other than @The Deterrent post and a suggestion of a Strategic SAM like Aster series, rest of all the posts (most part i mean) is full of jingoism.
Science is something which can be challenged and proven to be incorrect but tall claims supercede science so no point.

Sadly a good thread for a good discussion and idea is heavily derailed and gone. A countermeasure to a LRSAM is one of the hottest topic for discussion. People involve everything from MIRVs, to ECCM/ECMs to Stealth angles to even deep Commando insertions to take out the strategic command unit or LR radar in order to open up a corridor for swift deployment.

Unfortunately, no one answered whether a practically Mach 22-24+ terminal speed seen in normally ICBM class with very high altitude as apogee is something which can be planned as a countermove (along with MIRVs). Again the cost intensive and research needed with manpower and time is a reality. Again can a pakistani IRBM can have a newer tech of getting into higher apogee and mimic a semi ICBM like move towards terminal end of its flightplan. R&D needed and time cost plays a factor.

ECCM and ECM and other electronic warfare measures are inbuilt and envisioned as part of the system @zebra7 . The reason being the S400 system and in future S500 system were remarkably planned of only when Russia realised the advent of Growlers and F22/F35 and various missiles with strong Elctronic Countermeasures - all particularly to USA stables. Unfortunately whatever USA has developed remains a top notch in quality as compared to threats india will encounter. And thus the efficacy of the S400 system gets multiple push ups as the possibility of such high technological innovations encountering Indian deployed systems in next 15 years is in lower single digits of probability. True CHina may be able to deploy because of its resourcefulness but definitely Pakistan will take some time longer in horizon.

@waz Bro i was always skeptical about Su35 kite flying by most members but i kept quiet as i thought people are being too much naive. People feed on the jingo that most sources/officials and even reporters quote.. Even Indian does that. But good finally some sanity and sense may come back to all people. What would be the official line of planning and how sources of funds can be managed for a good similar system for Pakistan and countermeasures remains to be seen. All in all i think we are finally moving into timelines where a cost of staging a war for both countries becomes so high that ultimately other than verbal volleys, i dont forsee much happening ..

To add to @sarjenprabhu a deployment of SLBM (not present atm) SLCM (presently under developemnt) for PN needs boats to deliver the arsenal first. Whther its surface or submerged fleet needs to pass out the whole Arabian sea to move towards a location deeper into indian ocean along the pathways of economic corridors where most of the trade traffic flows
Now in that path India has multiple bases and detection points . To counter everyone and believing that its possible to go deep means your need of avoiding Indian Arabian sea reach by a maximum distance and needs you to take a much longer path. Again such a tactic means the surface/submerged ship/escort/lone wolf/ fleet must be deployed days and weeks before the actual Day 0 of an engagement. and on top a belief that none of that will be tracked, detected and countered.

The efficacy of a sound deployment will need placements of the systems as shown by Sarjen india pic ( thanks to Vstol originally for this and i posted it in the other thread) implying even deeper south may have adequate protection to a great extent.

BTW a Sub launched missile (CM/BM) is no different from Nasr firing. the replies that follows is a assured destruction. Other than that (N Switch option) the counter move should be thought of something which gives added credibility and plays in the minds of the country with which you plan to engage. N button is not the first button but rather last button. its usage is a slaughter of mankind.. irrespective whomsoever uses..
 
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Sorry to say other than @The Deterrent post and a suggestion of a Strategic SAM like Aster series, rest of all the posts (most part i mean) is full of jingoism.
Science is something which can be challenged and proven to be incorrect but tall claims supercede science so no point.

Sadly a good thread for a good discussion and idea is heavily derailed and gone. A countermeasure to a LRSAM is one of the hottest topic for discussion. People involve everything from MIRVs, to ECCM/ECMs to Stealth angles to even deep Commando insertions to take out the strategic command unit or LR radar in order to open up a corridor for swift deployment.

Unfortunately, no one answered whether a practically Mach 22-24+ terminal speed seen in normally ICBM class with very high altitude as apogee is something which can be planned as a countermove (along with MIRVs). Again the cost intensive and research needed with manpower and time is a reality. Again can a pakistani IRBM can have a newer tech of getting into higher apogee and mimic a semi ICBM like move towards terminal end of its flightplan. R&D needed and time cost plays a factor.

ECCM and ECM and other electronic warfare measures are inbuilt and envisioned as part of the system @zebra7 . The reason being the S400 system and in future S500 system were remarkably planned of only when Russia realised the advent of Growlers and F22/F35 and various missiles with strong Elctronic Countermeasures - all particularly to USA stables. Unfortunately whatever USA has developed remains a top notch in quality as compared to threats india will encounter. And thus the efficacy of the S400 system gets multiple push ups as the possibility of such high technological innovations encountering Indian deployed systems in next 15 years is in lower single digits of probability. True CHina may be able to deploy because of its resourcefulness but definitely Pakistan will take some time longer in horizon.

@waz Bro i was always skeptical about Su35 kite flying by most members but i kept quiet as i thought people are being too much naive. People feed on the jingo that most sources/officials and even reporters quote.. Even Indian does that. But good finally some sanity and sense may come back to all people. What would be the official line of planning and how sources of funds can be managed for a good similar system for Pakistan and countermeasures remains to be seen. All in all i think we are finally moving into timelines where a cost of staging a war for both countries becomes so high that ultimately other than verbal volleys, i dont forsee much happening ..
Dear Sir, thanks for putting such an effort to write such a great topic. But before I write something there is some issue that is Pakistani Response, and not a China Response or USA response. So keeping things in practical and economically valid in the present situation, the options were put.

Regarding S-400 against growler or other ECM or EECM or the hypersonic Recce aircraft, the S300 buck SAM whose upgraded version is S-300UP-3I which is S-400 was introduced to counter that. Yes you are right that its not easy to jam the powerful ground radar, and that to if Pesa or AESA, however the growler with powerful ECM emitter lowers the Radars power and range. S-400 system do have the counter measures for jamming, so do all modern Sam system, but its over the top attack profile and long range for that purpose makes it more lethal because the fighter planes own MAW, RWS and ECM countermeasures for the Missiles active radar, could not help them, when the missile are coming from the top.

So now if S-400 deal has been made or on process, how did you predict that it will be deployed for the ABM and not for threatening Pakistani Awaac, and the strandoff weapons.

And for the 20+ march terminal Ballastic missile for the strategic goal, Leave aside that are you sure S-400 can counter March 3 cruise missile like Brahmos category.

And for the @the deterrant post about the astor-30 Can a Sam be deployed for countering a Sam. Does this thread is asking for tick for tac response

Thanks and regards
 
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Sam would complement the planes since India can come up with 2 times larger force leaving protection to the s400 in some areas. Without sams it is not feasible or sane to try to cope with them by using much smaller airforce only.Getting sams for Pakistan would make you more independant to spares or borrowing planes (if airbases survive)and indirectly be a deterrant against Indian S400 purchase.
 
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Dear Sir, thanks for putting such an effort to write such a great topic. But before I write something there is some issue that is Pakistani Response, and not a China Response or USA response. So keeping things in practical and economically valid in the present situation, the options were put.

Regarding S-400 against growler or other ECM or EECM or the hypersonic Recce aircraft, the S300 buck SAM whose upgraded version is S-300UP-3I which is S-400 was introduced to counter that. Yes you are right that its not easy to jam the powerful ground radar, and that to if Pesa or AESA, however the growler with powerful ECM emitter lowers the Radars power and range. S-400 system do have the counter measures for jamming, so do all modern Sam system, but its over the top attack profile and long range for that purpose makes it more lethal because the fighter planes own MAW, RWS and ECM countermeasures for the Missiles active radar, could not help them, when the missile are coming from the top.

So now if S-400 deal has been made or on process, how did you predict that it will be deployed for the ABM and not for threatening Pakistani Awaac, and the strandoff weapons.

And for the 20+ march terminal Ballastic missile for the strategic goal, Leave aside that are you sure S-400 can counter March 3 cruise missile like Brahmos category.

Thanks and regards
Sir, Let me explain

General Note
S400 is for every aerial threat right from a missile to a jet to awacs to drone. The idea is complete aersopace supremacy over the intended range of operations (400 km radius with 600km detection). Of course it has limitation of intercepting ICBM class which Russia is trying to counter by Prometheus (S-500)

Quasi BM, CM and all aerial threats
S400 can encounter Iskander M (QBM) (The Russian Iskander-M cruises at hypersonic speed of 2100–2600 m/s (Mach 6–7) S400 also engages Yakhont/Onix as part of its strategy against CMs and was always planned as countermeasures against Iskander/Yakhont type missiles (even in S300 later variants stage and a regime where Russia had supplied the missiles and say west getting hold and reverse engineering it and using it against Russia). Now Iskander follows a very very flat path and is a dangerous quasi ballistic missile and other ones are cruise missiles. The quasi ballistic missile flies at a different path than a typical BM and thus harder to track and engage. It also is manouverable and may posses decoys of some sort.A Yakhont interception takes care of Brahmos part. On top if S-400 misses, the multi tier system allows Barak 8 (Normal and extended range) Land version as part of Indian BMD plan to take part and stop the supersonic CM. And i dont think we have seen something like that in South Asia as of yet (Both QBM and Supersonic CMs).

Also, S-400 Triumf are intended to destroy opposing stand-off jammer aircraft, AWACS/AEW&C aircraft, reconnaissance and armed reconnaissance aircraft, cruise missile armed strategic bombers, cruise missiles, Tactical, Theatre and Intermediate Range Ballistic Missiles, and any other atmospheric threats, all in an intensive Electronic Counter Measures environment.

The popular idea of shooting cruise missiles, anti-radiation missiles or standoff missiles at the battery, assuming its location is known, is only viable where such a weapon has a sufficiently low radar signature to penetrate inside the minimum engagement range of the SAM before being detected - anything less will see the inbound missile killed by a self defensive SAM shot.

The current Russian view of this is to sell Pantsir S1/S2 / SA-22 self-propelled point defence SAM systems as a rapid reaction close in defensive Counter-PGM system to protect the battery by shooting down the incoming missile if it gets past the SAMs. It comes as standard unit in one S400 unit with 4 in numbers as part of a single unit price of S400. On top, we will also deploy Akash, Spyder and other multilayered shield when integrated with Indian BMD). It implies if india buys 12 units of S400 we may have 48 Pantsir units too.

In case threat emerges the command post will based on its calculations wake up specific batteries, their numbers, select the missiles and give them orded to fire. Afterwards SAM systems will change their positions while being guarded by other ones in "sleeping" mode. Enemy will have huge problems locating SAM systems and guiding their fighters and CM to its targets because IAF fighters will roam the skys keeping on distance .

For Decoy detection
Signature analysis. combining data from its sensors, compare it with available target model, make decision then attack. (implying a robust command center and high quality radar for detection)

Now for ABM role
First thing: The new 40N6 missile guarantees a direct hit on a target at a range of 400 kilometers and at heights of up to 185 kilometers – effectively near space.
Russian S-300 missile systems capable of targeting near space 'enter service' — RT News
That said, that 185 kms altitude is probably of the domestic version. Export version maybe less too.

Second thing,
There are three places you can intercept a ballistic missile... at launch... which is easiest as all the warheads are together so even if the missile carries 20 warheads it only takes one hit to take them all down.and of course the target is easy to spot as it has an enormous ball of fire at its base as it climbs.

The second place to intercept is between the target and launch pad for a mid course intercept, this is harder because the target is at full speed but not burning rocket fuel so harder to spot and flying high. The advantage is that you don't need to operate within enemy territory to take the shot.

And finally you can locate interceptor missiles near the target for terminal interception... for 20 warheads you have 20 targets, and they don't start glowing till they enter the atmosphere, but it is your air space and with plenty of warning you have the advantage that they are coming to you.

Third Thing,
S-400 again is (like later new S-500 ) designed to intercept high altitude for high end IRBM type targets. (a mid course interception step 2)
S-500 was always designed for High Altitude terminal defense of ICBM targets and mid-course for IRBM targets.

S-400 and alike Russian AD systems are meant to simultaneously work with ECM systems meaning enemy radars are supposed to be blinded anyway as 40N6 and 48N6 steam rolls its way towards the target. From the official Almaz-Antey leaked about the existence of the passive guided S-400 missiles and many other things about the S-400 missile system remains a secret till this day but one thing is for sure, Russian generals are extremely happy about it.

A likely scenario would be that the S-400 is a high-tier anti-IRBM system when put into service but designed to evolve into a lower-tier anti-ICBM system (just under higher tiers S-500)

Now this fits Indian ABM perfectly and let us have a sound system clearly countering present threat from western border and have an aerial superiority via a combination of IAF jets and supremacy platforms like S400

SAm against SAm is for having a similar system to counter indian aerial threats..Aster is a good system and is also heavy cost. pak will need at least 5-6 such systems and i am sure not everything can be bought with price negotiations and line of credit. perhaps a better option would be Chinese HQ series due to line of credit availability as well as quicker deplyment.

Now officially i have never heard in any open source that say aerail threat from Pak is getting targeted at say 400 km range in Pak/India border airspace and 40N6 is fired and Aster 30 radar lights up (unlikely due to strong ECM measures) and aster 30 SAm fires a missile and takes 40N6 out...

That i feel needs a field testing... not heard before..

thats called Anti SAM btw
 
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Even money is needed to build decoys and Yes you don't need to enter into an arms race since you've nukes.... As for your second strike capabilities.. if you're mentioning SSBN then its missiles still has to deal with S-400, AAD and PAD, don't think we'll put all the batteries near pakistani border. First it'll be deployed along with Indian ABM in all the important City centers then Military Installations.

see the pic below
upload_2015-11-3_13-40-17-png.269151
Sir in case of war you will move your assets to your western border that means some mid low targets would be vulnerable of possible attack and by SSBN SLCM OR SLBM having a 2nd strike capability would deter India so best counter is to have sea based 2nd strike capabilities and not going gaga to chest measuring contest we cant out spent India's purchasing power only counter it or deter it and having minimum defensive forces
 
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Even money is needed to build decoys and Yes you don't need to enter into an arms race since you've nukes.... As for your second strike capabilities.. if you're mentioning SSBN then its missiles still has to deal with S-400, AAD and PAD, don't think we'll put all the batteries near pakistani border. First it'll be deployed along with Indian ABM in all the important City centers then Military Installations.

see the pic below
upload_2015-11-3_13-40-17-png.269151
Kindly provide source baking the map you should stating that you have got india covered
 
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Sir in case of war you will move your assets to your western border that means some mid low targets would be vulnerable of possible attack and by SSBN SLCM OR SLBM having a 2nd strike capability would deter India so best counter is to have sea based 2nd strike capabilities and not going gaga to chest measuring contest we cant out spent India's purchasing power only counter it or deter it and having minimum defensive forces

Sir, you miss the point, the lower southern india coverage is part of a BMD network plan which covers the whole country. True, the command centers and detetcing radars and reloaders among western border would be more vigilant, but moving a mobile SAm with 60Kmph speed over 2-3k km is not advisable. Also the question of having enough roadspace to send a big flotilla of TEL/Trucks etc is a logistic nightmare.

Technically the radius may move at best within a fixed zone of movement but it wont move into western border from southern border.

What you effectively suggest will negate the complete BMD systems in place for covering the whole country and will leave a much more vulenrable place for entries.
 
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Sir in case of war you will move your assets to your western border that means some mid low targets would be vulnerable of possible attack and by SSBN SLCM OR SLBM having a 2nd strike capability would deter India so best counter is to have sea based 2nd strike capabilities and not going gaga to chest measuring contest we cant out spent India's purchasing power only counter it or deter it and having minimum defensive forces

Sir that would happen only when Pakistan doesn't have a SSBN. Policy makers are no fools to leave a door open to attack. If Pakistan acquire a SSBN it'll also have to be countered. and anyway what are you going to attack with a SSBN, India coastal Village where only civilians live!!??? No you'll use that to attack Indian financial,political Cities and military targets. still ll of them will be covered by S-400,300 AAD and PAD. And to attack Indian capital with SLBM from IOR is damn risky move why?? First reach of the missile.. like you said sub will move to somewhere south !! but it still should be within its missile's reach that's where Navy's assets from P-8, Kamorta and S-70Bs along with SSN and SSK will be crawling.. you've better chance of Firing and staying out of trouble in Arabian sea or Cross Straight of Hormuz than Indian Ocean. but S-400 or any other ABM don't have a 100% reliabilities.. so it doesn't matter if the missile gets intercepted or not.

Kindly provide source baking the map you should stating that you have got india covered

Sir i can provide but its not officially Acknowledge. Do you know Delhi is currently covered by S-300 battery!!?? but again it's not been told officially. but yes the idea is to cover entire India Mainly Important Cities and Military Installation who will come under attack.

Sir, Let me explain

General Note
S400 is for every aerial threat right from a missile to a jet to awacs to drone. The idea is complete aersopace supremacy over the intended range of operations (400 km radius with 600km detection). Of course it has limitation of intercepting ICBM class which Russia is trying to counter by Prometheus (S-500)

Quasi BM, CM and all aerial threats
S400 can encounter Iskander M (QBM) (The Russian Iskander-M cruises at hypersonic speed of 2100–2600 m/s (Mach 6–7) S400 also engages Yakhont/Onix as part of its strategy against CMs and was always planned as countermeasures against Iskander/Yakhont type missiles (even in S300 later variants stage and a regime where Russia had supplied the missiles and say west getting hold and reverse engineering it and using it against Russia). Now Iskander follows a very very flat path and is a dangerous quasi ballistic missile and other ones are cruise missiles. The quasi ballistic missile flies at a different path than a typical BM and thus harder to track and engage. It also is manouverable and may posses decoys of some sort.A Yakhont interception takes care of Brahmos part. On top if S-400 misses, the multi tier system allows Barak 8 (Normal and extended range) Land version as part of Indian BMD plan to take part and stop the supersonic CM. And i dont think we have seen something like that in South Asia as of yet (Both QBM and Supersonic CMs).

Also, S-400 Triumf are intended to destroy opposing stand-off jammer aircraft, AWACS/AEW&C aircraft, reconnaissance and armed reconnaissance aircraft, cruise missile armed strategic bombers, cruise missiles, Tactical, Theatre and Intermediate Range Ballistic Missiles, and any other atmospheric threats, all in an intensive Electronic Counter Measures environment.

The popular idea of shooting cruise missiles, anti-radiation missiles or standoff missiles at the battery, assuming its location is known, is only viable where such a weapon has a sufficiently low radar signature to penetrate inside the minimum engagement range of the SAM before being detected - anything less will see the inbound missile killed by a self defensive SAM shot.

The current Russian view of this is to sell Pantsir S1/S2 / SA-22 self-propelled point defence SAM systems as a rapid reaction close in defensive Counter-PGM system to protect the battery by shooting down the incoming missile if it gets past the SAMs. It comes as standard unit in one S400 unit with 4 in numbers as part of a single unit price of S400. On top, we will also deploy Akash, Spyder and other multilayered shield when integrated with Indian BMD). It implies if india buys 12 units of S400 we may have 48 Pantsir units too.

In case threat emerges the command post will based on its calculations wake up specific batteries, their numbers, select the missiles and give them orded to fire. Afterwards SAM systems will change their positions while being guarded by other ones in "sleeping" mode. Enemy will have huge problems locating SAM systems and guiding their fighters and CM to its targets because IAF fighters will roam the skys keeping on distance .

For Decoy detection
Signature analysis. combining data from its sensors, compare it with available target model, make decision then attack. (implying a robust command center and high quality radar for detection)

Now for ABM role
First thing: The new 40N6 missile guarantees a direct hit on a target at a range of 400 kilometers and at heights of up to 185 kilometers – effectively near space.
Russian S-300 missile systems capable of targeting near space 'enter service' — RT News
That said, that 185 kms altitude is probably of the domestic version. Export version maybe less too.

Second thing,
There are three places you can intercept a ballistic missile... at launch... which is easiest as all the warheads are together so even if the missile carries 20 warheads it only takes one hit to take them all down.and of course the target is easy to spot as it has an enormous ball of fire at its base as it climbs.

The second place to intercept is between the target and launch pad for a mid course intercept, this is harder because the target is at full speed but not burning rocket fuel so harder to spot and flying high. The advantage is that you don't need to operate within enemy territory to take the shot.

And finally you can locate interceptor missiles near the target for terminal interception... for 20 warheads you have 20 targets, and they don't start glowing till they enter the atmosphere, but it is your air space and with plenty of warning you have the advantage that they are coming to you.

Third Thing,
S-400 again is (like later new S-500 ) designed to intercept high altitude for high end IRBM type targets. (a mid course interception step 2)
S-500 was always designed for High Altitude terminal defense of ICBM targets and mid-course for IRBM targets.

S-400 and alike Russian AD systems are meant to simultaneously work with ECM systems meaning enemy radars are supposed to be blinded anyway as 40N6 and 48N6 steam rolls its way towards the target. From the official Almaz-Antey leaked about the existence of the passive guided S-400 missiles and many other things about the S-400 missile system remains a secret till this day but one thing is for sure, Russian generals are extremely happy about it.

A likely scenario would be that the S-400 is a high-tier anti-IRBM system when put into service but designed to evolve into a lower-tier anti-ICBM system (just under higher tiers S-500)

Now this fits Indian ABM perfectly and let us have a sound system clearly countering present threat from western border and have an aerial superiority via a combination of IAF jets and supremacy platforms like S400

SAm against SAm is for having a similar system to counter indian aerial threats..Aster is a good system and is also heavy cost. pak will need at least 5-6 such systems and i am sure not everything can be bought with price negotiations and line of credit. perhaps a better option would be Chinese HQ series due to line of credit availability as well as quicker deplyment.

Now officially i have never heard in any open source that say aerail threat from Pak is getting targeted at say 400 km range in Pak/India border airspace and 40N6 is fired and Aster 30 radar lights up (unlikely due to strong ECM measures) and aster 30 SAm fires a missile and takes 40N6 out...

That i feel needs a field testing... not heard before..

thats called Anti SAM btw


Wow... that's a great explanation..

Where are the think-tanks how come a good posts like this don't get a positive rating ???
 
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Sir, Let me explain

General Note
S400 is for every aerial threat right from a missile to a jet to awacs to drone. The idea is complete aersopace supremacy over the intended range of operations (400 km radius with 600km detection). Of course it has limitation of intercepting ICBM class which Russia is trying to counter by Prometheus (S-500)

Quasi BM, CM and all aerial threats
S400 can encounter Iskander M (QBM) (The Russian Iskander-M cruises at hypersonic speed of 2100–2600 m/s (Mach 6–7) S400 also engages Yakhont/Onix as part of its strategy against CMs and was always planned as countermeasures against Iskander/Yakhont type missiles (even in S300 later variants stage and a regime where Russia had supplied the missiles and say west getting hold and reverse engineering it and using it against Russia). Now Iskander follows a very very flat path and is a dangerous quasi ballistic missile and other ones are cruise missiles. The quasi ballistic missile flies at a different path than a typical BM and thus harder to track and engage. It also is manouverable and may posses decoys of some sort.A Yakhont interception takes care of Brahmos part. On top if S-400 misses, the multi tier system allows Barak 8 (Normal and extended range) Land version as part of Indian BMD plan to take part and stop the supersonic CM. And i dont think we have seen something like that in South Asia as of yet (Both QBM and Supersonic CMs).

Also, S-400 Triumf are intended to destroy opposing stand-off jammer aircraft, AWACS/AEW&C aircraft, reconnaissance and armed reconnaissance aircraft, cruise missile armed strategic bombers, cruise missiles, Tactical, Theatre and Intermediate Range Ballistic Missiles, and any other atmospheric threats, all in an intensive Electronic Counter Measures environment.

The popular idea of shooting cruise missiles, anti-radiation missiles or standoff missiles at the battery, assuming its location is known, is only viable where such a weapon has a sufficiently low radar signature to penetrate inside the minimum engagement range of the SAM before being detected - anything less will see the inbound missile killed by a self defensive SAM shot.

The current Russian view of this is to sell Pantsir S1/S2 / SA-22 self-propelled point defence SAM systems as a rapid reaction close in defensive Counter-PGM system to protect the battery by shooting down the incoming missile if it gets past the SAMs. It comes as standard unit in one S400 unit with 4 in numbers as part of a single unit price of S400. On top, we will also deploy Akash, Spyder and other multilayered shield when integrated with Indian BMD). It implies if india buys 12 units of S400 we may have 48 Pantsir units too.

In case threat emerges the command post will based on its calculations wake up specific batteries, their numbers, select the missiles and give them orded to fire. Afterwards SAM systems will change their positions while being guarded by other ones in "sleeping" mode. Enemy will have huge problems locating SAM systems and guiding their fighters and CM to its targets because IAF fighters will roam the skys keeping on distance .

For Decoy detection
Signature analysis. combining data from its sensors, compare it with available target model, make decision then attack. (implying a robust command center and high quality radar for detection)

Now for ABM role
First thing: The new 40N6 missile guarantees a direct hit on a target at a range of 400 kilometers and at heights of up to 185 kilometers – effectively near space.
Russian S-300 missile systems capable of targeting near space 'enter service' — RT News
That said, that 185 kms altitude is probably of the domestic version. Export version maybe less too.

Second thing,
There are three places you can intercept a ballistic missile... at launch... which is easiest as all the warheads are together so even if the missile carries 20 warheads it only takes one hit to take them all down.and of course the target is easy to spot as it has an enormous ball of fire at its base as it climbs.

The second place to intercept is between the target and launch pad for a mid course intercept, this is harder because the target is at full speed but not burning rocket fuel so harder to spot and flying high. The advantage is that you don't need to operate within enemy territory to take the shot.

And finally you can locate interceptor missiles near the target for terminal interception... for 20 warheads you have 20 targets, and they don't start glowing till they enter the atmosphere, but it is your air space and with plenty of warning you have the advantage that they are coming to you.

Third Thing,
S-400 again is (like later new S-500 ) designed to intercept high altitude for high end IRBM type targets. (a mid course interception step 2)
S-500 was always designed for High Altitude terminal defense of ICBM targets and mid-course for IRBM targets.

S-400 and alike Russian AD systems are meant to simultaneously work with ECM systems meaning enemy radars are supposed to be blinded anyway as 40N6 and 48N6 steam rolls its way towards the target. From the official Almaz-Antey leaked about the existence of the passive guided S-400 missiles and many other things about the S-400 missile system remains a secret till this day but one thing is for sure, Russian generals are extremely happy about it.

A likely scenario would be that the S-400 is a high-tier anti-IRBM system when put into service but designed to evolve into a lower-tier anti-ICBM system (just under higher tiers S-500)

Now this fits Indian ABM perfectly and let us have a sound system clearly countering present threat from western border and have an aerial superiority via a combination of IAF jets and supremacy platforms like S400

SAm against SAm is for having a similar system to counter indian aerial threats..Aster is a good system and is also heavy cost. pak will need at least 5-6 such systems and i am sure not everything can be bought with price negotiations and line of credit. perhaps a better option would be Chinese HQ series due to line of credit availability as well as quicker deplyment.

Now officially i have never heard in any open source that say aerail threat from Pak is getting targeted at say 400 km range in Pak/India border airspace and 40N6 is fired and Aster 30 radar lights up (unlikely due to strong ECM measures) and aster 30 SAm fires a missile and takes 40N6 out...

That i feel needs a field testing... not heard before..

thats called Anti SAM btw

Thankx for such detailed post. I haved saved this and respond to this later after some study.

Now S-400 can be used against Iskander or Yokont at low altitude, can you provide the source of your claim.

Ok now I assume I am a pakistani and try to stumilate to find loop hole to breech S-400 cover.

I would have a small budget which makes me difficult to buy high end weapons to counter that. So what would I do
If Deployed near border for tacktical goal

1. Try to overwhelm the S400 threat
2. Making him weak or reduce its range
3 Destroy the system.
4. Protect pakistani asssets and aircraft from it and yet fulfil its goal

For this point no.

1. Extended range NASR for conventional attack, S-400 is very costly, and with depressed tragectory, low cost nasr, it would be difficult to replenish all S-400 missile, before strong and real attack is been made. Use of UAV in large number with emmiter to mimic and fool as a ariel threat.
2. Purchase Powerful Landbased ECM Radar to make S-400 Radars signal weak, to give the defendor small window of time to respond.
3. For distruction, buy dedicated ground attack fighter plane, which have wide area of SAR mapping and could fly at very low altitude e.g Like Rafale or Su-34 and attack through various weapons like long range GPS aided Glide Bomb from safer zones.
4. Jammers and countermeasures for jamming the active radar of the SAM.and the link signal of the sam and the firecontrol radar of S400.


If Deployed as ABM

1. Over whelm
2. Stealth and low altitude cruise missiles
3. Hypersonic high altitude missile -- Purchase DF-21C
4. Submarine launched cruise and bm
 
.

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