Possibility of further Russian Tech in JF17

[Zhukov]

Considering the warming relations between Russia and Pakistan. I was wondering what possible hardware can we purchase from them.
I am aware that procurement of a full Fighter jet platform is a bit too far fetched.
But Can we get a custom versions of following items for our JF17 thunders blk III

1-Phazatron Zhuk E AESA Radar. Can we see a customized variant of the one we see in Mig35 recently instead of KLJ7?

2-A custom variant of the RD93 based on the New RD33 deployed in Mig35 that are smokeless and create more Thrust then basic variants and are less prone to engine Failure.

3-The well known R77 Adder BVR and Alamo WVR considering Russian Radar and Data Link.

A JF17 incorporated with above tech can become potent Air Superiority Fighters. We can get upto 70 Such Kits and have 70JFs in Interceptor or Air superiority roles. And Basic Configuration JFs can still perform Attack role.

 

[Kompromat]

Considering the warming relations between Russia and Pakistan. I was wondering what possible hardware can we purchase from them.
I am aware that procurement of a full Fighter jet platform is a bit too far fetched.
But Can we get a custom versions of following items for our JF17 thunders blk III

1-Phazatron Zhuk E AESA Radar. Can we see a customized variant of the one we see in Mig35 recently instead of KLJ7?

That will put JF-17 squarely in the Russian lap when it comes to exports. The problem with AESA upgrade is money not availability. Vixen-1000E AESA has been available to PAF for quite some time, though we cannot afford it. KLJ-7 has performed beyond expectations and KLJ-7VII has been developed with AN/APG-68V9 in mind. Its a swashplate Escan radar.

2-A custom variant of the RD93 based on the New RD33 deployed in Mig35 that are smokeless and create more Thrust then basic variants and are less prone to engine Failure.

RD-93MA is already being considered. It has 1 tonnes of extra thrust which will do wonders to JF-17s flight performance as it will be right at par with the late model JAS-39 Gripen.

3-The well known R77 Adder BVR and Alamo WVR considering Russian Radar and Data Link.

R-77 Vympel is better suited for jets with passive attack capability which JF-17 doesn't have at the moment. Moreover we need to go for the 5th generation HOBS solutions like IRIS-Ts, not backwards.

JF-17 has already got a tactical datalink. Next goal is to find an intermediary to link it to the Link-16 which will make it interoperable with the entire F-16 and EriEye fleet, giving PAF an across the fleet interoperability for the first time in history.

A JF17 incorporated with above tech can become potent Air Superiority Fighters. We can get upto 70 Such Kits and have 70JFs in Interceptor or Air superiority roles. And Basic Configuration JFs can still perform Attack role.

Not feasible as most of those capabilities are already available to us or will be available when we could afford them. There is simply no need to have too many fingers in this program.

 

[Donatello]

RD-93MA is already being considered. It has 10 tonnes of extra thrust which will do wonders to JF-17s flight performance as it will be right at par with the late model JAS-39 Gripen.

Aeronaut sahib, not 10 tonnes, but 1 tonne.....

 

[Zhukov]

That will put JF-17 squarely in the Russian lap when it comes to exports. The problem with AESA upgrade is money not availability. Vixen-1000E AESA has been available to PAF for quite some time, though we cannot afford it. KLJ-7 has performed beyond expectations and KLJ-7VII has been developed with AN/APG-68V9 in mind. Its a swashplate Escan radar.



RD-93MA is already being considered. It has 10 tonnes of extra thrust which will do wonders to JF-17s flight performance as it will be right at par with the late model JAS-39 Gripen.



R-77 Vympel is better suited for jets with passive attack capability which JF-17 doesn't have at the moment. Moreover we need to go for the 5th generation HOBS solutions like IRIS-Ts, not backwards.

JF-17 has already got a tactical datalink. Next goal is to find an intermediary to link it to the Link-16 which will make it interoperable with the entire F-16 and EriEye fleet, giving PAF an across the fleet interoperability for the first time in history.



Not feasible as most of those capabilities are already available to us or will be available when we could afford them. There is simply no need to have too many fingers in this program.

Vixen is expensive but Phazetron Zhuk isnt. I meant Air superiority Version of JF17 in limited number for this role. not the export variant standard JF with chinese avionics.

A custom Variant for air Superioeity role is what i meant. and Zhuk E is affordable AESA option. Along with new RD93.
As for Attack role is concerned. the original KLJ based JFs are fine. Whats take on that?

 

[Kompromat]

Aeronaut sahib, not 10 tonnes, but 1 tonne.....

Yea 8,300kgf to 9,300 kgf = 1 tonne - my bad.

Vixen is expensive but Phazetron Zhuk isnt. I meant Air superiority Version of JF17 in limited number for this role. not the export variant standard JF with chinese avionics.

A custom Variant for air Superioeity role is what i meant. and Zhuk E is affordable AESA option. Along with new RD93.
As for Attack role is concerned. the original KLJ based JFs are fine. Whats take on that?

Having multiple radars on the same platform will blow our budget sirji. There is a reason why a single across the board radar is used. It will also present sever interoperability issues with rest of the fleet. These days the biggest tactical advantage you have in air combat is 'information and situational awareness'. If half of your fleet is blind to the other force elements, it presents a huge disadvantage in the modern battlespace.

 

[Zhukov]

Yea 8,300kgf to 9,300 kgf = 1 tonne - my bad.



Having multiple radars on the same platform will blow our budget sirji. There is a reason why a single across the board radar is used. It will also present sever interoperability issues with rest of the fleet. These days the biggest tactical advantage you have in air combat is 'information and situational awareness'. If half of your fleet is blind to the other force elements, it presents a huge disadvantage in the modern battlespace.

Dear my point is that instead of Acquisition of J10 or any other entirely new Platform to counter MKI. Why not a modified JF for that? A new Platform will be too much expensive and will also create maintenance nightmare as well.

I mean if we consider the present Configuration of JF17 MKI flanker can detect our JF with 3m2 RCS fully reloaded at about 140km and JF17 with KLJ7 can detect a fully loaded Su30MKI with 15m2 at almost 120km. But SD10 have proven range of only 80km but R77 range is surely 130km

If we can slightly kick up our Thunder with better radar engine and BVR missile. MKI will be a 1 on 1 with JF17 and that option is cost effective as compared to other options. Whats your take on that? and whay other options do we have?

 

[maxpayne]

Dear my point is that instead of Acquisition of J10 or any other entirely new Platform to counter MKI. Why not a modified JF for that? A new Platform will be too much expensive and will also create maintenance nightmare as well.

I mean if we consider the present Configuration of JF17 MKI flanker can detect our JF with 3m2 RCS fully reloaded at about 140km and JF17 with KLJ7 can detect a fully loaded Su30MKI with 15m2 at almost 120km. But SD10 have proven range of only 80km but R77 range is surely 130km

If we can slightly kick up our Thunder with better radar engine and BVR missile. MKI will be a 1 on 1 with JF17 and that option is cost effective as compared to other options. Whats your take on that? and whay other options do we have?

Better engine, better radar and more hardpoint. I believe these changes will raise up a generation of jf17.

 

[Kompromat]

@ahmadnawaz22 l JF-17 is not a frontline fighter, its goal is to go to fight along with its elder brother the F-16 to help him out.

Whatever we need to integrate on JFT has to be either built at home or come with TOT. JFT's biggest plus is its industrial perks for our military aviation industry. We need to develop mushroom hightec aviation industries like Israel has.

We need to suck in as much technology as we can and build a strong aviation industry. If Chinese navy really goes for JFT, we might get orders from them, then it would feed into more R&D. Lets give up this 'tukka' mindset of importing everything!

 

[Zhukov]

@ahmadnawaz22 l JF-17 is not a frontline fighter, its goal is to go to fight along with its elder brother the F-16 to help him out.

Whatever we need to integrate on JFT has to be either built at home or come with TOT. JFT's biggest plus is its industrial perks for our military aviation industry. We need to develop mushroom hightec aviation industries like Israel has.

We need to suck in as much technology as we can and build a strong aviation industry. If Chinese navy really goes for JFT, we might get orders from them, then it would feed into more R&D. Lets give up this 'tukka' mindset of importing everything!

Well your idea is very positive and Beneficial. Think about Phazatron giving us liscence to produce Zhuk E. We already Manufacture KLJ7 in home. Engines are already imported from china. Only Radar and airframe is home built.
Russians generally share technology with there customers if they can afford it. It would be great to se Zhuk E built at KAMRA under liscence.

 

[Kompromat]

@ahmadnawaz22 l Russians won't offer a rat's tail in TOT as our adversery will go on a hunger strike.

We need to keep developing the KLJ series further from Escan to AESA.

 

[Zhukov]

@ahmadnawaz22 l Russians won't offer a rat's tail in TOT as our adversery will go on a hunger strike.

We need to keep developing the KLJ series further from Escan to AESA.

Lolz "Hunger strike" yeah that's a problem.
BTW KLJ7 is ESA? I think it has mechenical slotted antenna. its Fire control pulse doppler not Electronically scanned array.
Or Did I missed something?

 

[Fahad Khan 2]

@ahmadnawaz22 Russians won't offer a rat's tail in TOT as our adversery will go on a hunger strike.

We need to keep developing the KLJ series further from Escan to AESA.

Chiness are our black market they buy stuff for us and they can name that russian radar KLJ-7 AESA and we can get licience production...

@ l Russians won't offer a rat's tail in TOT as our adversery will go on a hunger strike.

We need to keep developing the KLJ series further from Escan to AESA.

What is difference between PESA and E-Scan... Give link so i can understand...

Dear my point is that instead of Acquisition of J10 or any other entirely new Platform to counter MKI. Why not a modified JF for that? A new Platform will be too much expensive and will also create maintenance nightmare as well.

I mean if we consider the present Configuration of JF17 MKI flanker can detect our JF with 3m2 RCS fully reloaded at about 140km and JF17 with KLJ7 can detect a fully loaded Su30MKI with 15m2 at almost 120km. But SD10 have proven range of only 80km but R77 range is surely 130km

If we can slightly kick up our Thunder with better radar engine and BVR missile. MKI will be a 1 on 1 with JF17 and that option is cost effective as compared to other options. Whats your take on that? and whay other options do we have?

As far I have heard that Russian BVR are not reliable in compare to western counterpart.... So why should we go for Russian BVR???

 

[Zhukov]

Chiness are our black market they buy stuff for us and they can name that russian radar KLJ-7 AESA and we can get licience production...



What is difference between PESA and E-Scan... Give link so i can understand...




As far I have heard that Russian BVR are not reliable in compare to western counterpart.... So why should we go for Russian BVR???

Escna means Electronically scanned Radar. There are no mechenical parts in Escan radars, all solid.
There are two types of Escan radars. Passive Array (PESA) and Active Array (AESA).
In AESA electrnoic scan radars, all modules have indipendent transmitters and receivers so they are termed as active and so failure ratio is minimum as one module failure doesnt make the radar unoperational. PESA radars have a single activity design and all arrays cannot transmit and recieve indipendently.
Basically Both AESA and PESA are Escan.
But our KLJ7 is not Escan to my knowledge. Its fire control with mechenecally slotted antenna.
Thats my limited knowledge. hope a senior can clerify furthur.
Well Russian R77 Vympel might be less capable then American AIM120 or French MICA but it is definitely more capable and battle proven them SD10.
SD10/PL12 need to mature. It may exceed Russian R77 But only Time will tell.

 

[Fahad Khan 2]

We should go for JV of BVR with any western country it will give us advantage over india but BVR with great range not with small range...

Escna means Electronically scanned Radar. There are no mechenical parts in Escan radars, all solid.
There are two types of Escan radars. Passive Array (PESA) and Active Array (AESA).
In AESA electrnoic scan radars, all modules have indipendent transmitters and receivers so they are termed as active and so failure ratio is minimum as one module failure doesnt make the radar unoperational. PESA radars have a single activity design and all arrays cannot transmit and recieve indipendently.
Basically Both AESA and PESA are Escan.
But our KLJ7 is not Escan to my knowledge. Its fire control with mechenecally slotted antenna.
Thats my limited knowledge. hope a senior can clerify furthur.
Well Russian R77 Vympel might be less capable then American AIM120 or French MICA but it is definitely more capable and battle proven them SD10.
SD10/PL12 need to mature. It may exceed Russian R77 But only Time will tell.

 

[Kompromat]

SD-10A cuts as good as AMRAAM. Russians bully too much. They just gave tyre production to India for MKIs, only this year. Until now IAF needed to air lift its AL-31s for servicing all the way to Russia.

A big no thank you to all things Russian in JFT. We need to develop it into a potent 4.5 gen platform in the future along with our Chinese partners.

 

[Basel]

R-77 Vympel is better suited for jets with passive attack capability which JF-17 doesn't have at the moment. Moreover we need to go for the 5th generation HOBS solutions like IRIS-Ts, not backwards.

R-77 is not IR guided missile so can't be compared with missile's like IRIS-T, R-73 falls in that category, also basic R-77 is not as advance as AMRAAM C-5s, but PAF can look into R-77 (RVV-SD or PD) if available and if they are better then other available options.