Pope on Charlie Hebdo: When religion insulted, freedom of expression not boundless

[rockstar08]

You see, for some reason I can not allow you to shit on the graves of my ancestors, or make fun of their faith. You have to respect other people, not only yourself and your "freedom" to shit anywhere you want.

you are arguing with someone ,who have no common sense ...

 

[gubbi]

There is an elementary common sense, which should clearly tell the person that can not be done. You can not shit on someone's grave. You can not rape women. You can not eat people.
You can not make fun of other people's shrine.

Your freedom ends where another's person freedom begins. You can not mock the faith of another person. It is an axiom. You're confusing freedom and permissiveness.

You see, for some reason I can not allow you to shit on the graves of my ancestors, or make fun of their faith. You have to respect other people, not only yourself and your "freedom" to shit anywhere you want.

Yes you can. And you should criticize, make fun of religions. Does not matter if it offends everybody else's sentiments. Until and unless there is no physical harm done, no targeted mental torture of a particular group of people, no hateful actions undertaken, till then, everything is acceptable. On the other hand, desecrating a grave, harming people or cannibalism, as you mention, are inhumane acts which actually cause harm to others.

Now, can you see the difference here?

Religion is an idea. The whole concept of trying to understand and justify our existence through a make believe system of religious traditions is simply the creation of a scared, confused, belligerent human mind unable to fathom the vast emptiness and mind boggling scale of the Universe. Its all a fantasy. The day God or Gods, if they really exist, actually appear and say that one particular way is the true path, then religion will become a reality. Till then it is just a concept, an idea.
And like all ideas, created by the human mind, this concept too is open for criticism. If it weren't for our ability to make fun and criticize, we would all still be hearing about boats falling off the edge of the earth, riding dinosaurs and hunting mammoths on the great plains of a land supported on infinite number of turtles stacked upon themselves.

 

[PakGuns]

Your freedom does not mean that you can stop me from criticizing somebody else... especially just because some random dude wrote it in a book 1,400 years ago. Nobody can tell me that I have to follow those kind of nonsensical rules.

Criticism is allowed if you don't start hurting other's feeling and freedom....like if I make cartoons of someone you love..let's say your
Mom? Or anyone closer to you, in a way that disrespect her/him, and that will make you feel offended? Will I draw such sketch? Obviously, not... Try to learn difference between FREEDOM OF SPEECH and HATE SPEECH..do criticize religion but don't INSULT a religion...

 

[vostok]

Yes you can. And you should criticize, make fun of religions. Does not matter if it offends everybody else's sentiments. Until and unless there is no physical harm done, no targeted mental torture of a particular group of people, no hateful actions undertaken, till then, everything is acceptable. On the other hand, desecrating a grave, harming people or cannibalism, as you mention, are inhumane acts which actually cause harm to others.

Now, can you see the difference here?

Religion is an idea. The whole concept of trying to understand and justify our existence through a make believe system of religious traditions is simply the creation of a scared, confused, belligerent human mind unable to fathom the vast emptiness and mind boggling scale of the Universe. Its all a fantasy. The day God or Gods, if they really exist, actually appear and say that one particular way is the true path, then religion will become a reality. Till then it is just a concept, an idea.
And like all ideas, created by the human mind, this concept too is open for criticism. If it weren't for our ability to make fun and criticize, we would all still be hearing about boats falling off the edge of the earth, riding dinosaurs and hunting mammoths on the great plains of a land supported on infinite number of turtles stacked upon themselves.

It does not matter whether you believe in God or not. This is your own business. However, you have to respect the feelings of people who believe in God. If you know that you hurting a person's feelings by insulting his religion, but still doing it - then you're making a conscious provocation. You consciously do shit into the human soul.
So do not.
Human freedom does not mean permissiveness. And of course, the current state of juridical system, a set of laws - is not a full reflection of justice.
There are things that are beyond juridical laws, it is the concept of morality, the concepts of good and evil. Actually, it was from this concepts laws came into the world once. So morality, ethics - primary in relation to the legal system. This is the supreme law of the highest justice, offspring of conscience and humanity.
If you deliberately hurting the human soul - you have to pay the price. Blasphemy shall be prohibited and shall be punished by imprisonment.

 

[damm1t]

Some people got this freedom of speech thing sooo wrong, it seems...
Freedom of speech is a fundamental right you say, I am curious about what you gonna do if someone swear your beloved family members with the heavist way possible, direct on your face, would you tolerate it? He just wanted to say he desired he has freedom of speech, right? Some people should reconsider their concept of freedom of speech...

 

[flamer84]

Blasphemy shall be prohibited and shall be punished by imprisonment.

LMFAO ,people with internet connection talking like they're a 15th century Tomas De Torquemada.

 

[Schutz]

I can say whatever I want BUT I wont attack peoples choice, I will question them on it but I wont attack them for it, thats what being in a free country with free speech is about. The ability to question ones choices but the fact that its their choice means thats about as much as I should do, if I choose to eat something unhealthy I wont object to somebody questioning why I am eating bad food but I wouldnt be to happy if they started to provoke me over my choice.

That being said if people resort to violence because they dont like something the **** them, violence is the last thing any rational being would resort to in any given situation, especially mockery as thats a childs mentality and when you get attacked for free speech then I say onslaught the attackers, toning down free speech in certain situations is fine but if your getting attacked for the content then dont surrender to them. Besides it was a picture, if you dont like the content then dont look at it, its a choice to look at it, I doubt any of the scum even knew 1% of the magazines content, they were just pissed off and stupidly attack.

You can say what you want as long as you are not offending things that arent choices, i.e disability, skin colour, sexuality. Those are things which will cause offence to an individual, killing people because it shows an imaginary drawing of a prophet from 1500 years ago is just giving more reason to mock, nobody knew what Charlie Hebdo was last week and nobody was offended, these guys have caused the offence and now its going to grow and cause even more offence, the real offenders are the perpetrators of violence.

 

[JohnyD]

Agree with Pope! under the cover of freedom of speech u cant make fun of others sentiments! and if that fun s been meted out at Muslims who go wild when it comes to religion then such things are bound to happen!

Simply put, "uncensored movie not just boycotted by the Muslim extremists but all cast and crews were thrashed to death"

 

[Penguin]

There is an elementary common sense, which should clearly tell the person that can not be done. You can not shit on someone's grave. You can not rape women. You can not eat people.
You can not make fun of other people's shrine.
This is obvious.

Well, first of all, that would work both/all ways. And, second, what about the fairly large proportion of people that don't have a shrine, because the are NOT religious?

You do not have the right to offend the religious feelings of other people, do blaspheme, spit on the holy things for them.
Is it difficult?

What of the right of non-religious people to not be bothered in their beliefs aka offended by religious people?
IMHO, it may not be wise to offend religious feelings, but you do have a right to say what you believe. That is essential. At least in a free society.

In that context, why should religious feelings be different from non-religous feelings. By extention, we don't have the right to offend . (< that being a period)?

It does not matter whether you believe in God or not. This is your own business. However, you have to respect the feelings of people who believe in God. If you know that you hurting a person's feelings by insulting his religion, but still doing it - then you're making a conscious provocation. You consciously do shit into the human soul.
So do not.
Human freedom does not mean permissiveness. And of course, the current state of juridical system, a set of laws - is not a full reflection of justice.
There are things that are beyond juridical laws, it is the concept of morality, the concepts of good and evil. Actually, it was from this concepts laws came into the world once. So morality, ethics - primary in relation to the legal system. This is the supreme law of the highest justice, offspring of conscience and humanity.
If you deliberately hurting the human soul - you have to pay the price. Blasphemy shall be prohibited and shall be punished by imprisonment.

Likewise you have to respect the feelings of people who DON't believe in God. At least, if you're consistent.

GOD doesn't need mortal men to punish others on his/her behalf. (you might even consider the assumption that men are needed to punish other men on behalf of God a motion of distrust i.e. unrespectful of God)

 

[Koovie]

Criticism is allowed if you don't start hurting other's feeling and freedom....like if I make cartoons of someone you love..let's say your
Mom? Or anyone closer to you, in a way that disrespect her/him, and that will make you feel offended? Will I draw such sketch? Obviously, not... Try to learn difference between FREEDOM OF SPEECH and HATE SPEECH..do criticize religion but don't INSULT a religion...

Did my mom use violence to convert people? Did my mom start a religion which has elements which I oppose ?

And yes, you are allowed to make cartoons of anyone you want.

Criticism is allowed if you don't start hurting other's feeling and freedom....like if I make cartoons of someone you love..let's say your.

Your argument is flawed:

How exactly am I violating YOUR freedom if I say that person XYZ is bad because of ... ???

You know that if everyone would argue like you, there would be no freedom of opinion, right?

Lets say you do not like Nawaz Sharif... if somebody criticizes him, would you seriously go to him and tell him that he is violating your freedom?

You see, for some reason I can not allow you to shit on the graves of my ancestors, or make fun of their faith. You have to respect other people, not only yourself and your "freedom" to shit anywhere you want.

1.) You are in no position to "allow" or not "allow" anything.

2.) I am free to criticize anyone... dead or alive, "sacred" or not, whether you like it or not. Thats my fundamental right of a democratic, free and secular nation, adopted by the representatives of the people and there is nothing you can do about that.

If somebody wants to criticize somebody who is responsible for religious violence which caused the deaths of a large number of people he/she is free to do so.

If you ancient books prohibit you (for whatever non rational reason) then you can follow them if you want to, thats your right, but dont force those "laws" on others.

Period.

 

[PakGuns]

Did my mom use violence to convert people? Did my mom start a religion which has elements which I oppose ?

And yes, you are allowed to make cartoons of anyone you want.


Your argument is flawed:

How exactly am I violating YOUR freedom if I say that person XYZ is bad because of ... ???

You know that if everyone would argue like you, there would be no freedom of opinion, right?

Lets say you do not like Nawaz Sharif... if somebody criticizes him, would you seriously go to him and tell him that he is violating your freedom?



1.) You are in no position to "allow" or not "allow" anything.

2.) I am free to criticize anyone... dead or alive, "sacred" or not, whether you like it or not. Thats my fundamental right of a democratic, free and secular nation, adopted by the representatives of the people and there is nothing you can do about that.

If somebody wants to criticize somebody who is responsible for religious violence which caused the deaths of a large number of people he/she is free to do so.

If you ancient books prohibit you (for whatever non rational reason) then you can follow them if you want to, thats your right, but dont force those "laws" on others.

Period.

Did my mom use violence to convert people? Did my mom start a religion which has elements which I oppose ?

And yes, you are allowed to make cartoons of anyone you want.


Your argument is flawed:

How exactly am I violating YOUR freedom if I say that person XYZ is bad because of ... ???

You know that if everyone would argue like you, there would be no freedom of opinion, right?

Lets say you do not like Nawaz Sharif... if somebody criticizes him, would you seriously go to him and tell him that he is violating your freedom?



1.) You are in no position to "allow" or not "allow" anything.

2.) I am free to criticize anyone... dead or alive, "sacred" or not, whether you like it or not. Thats my fundamental right of a democratic, free and secular nation, adopted by the representatives of the people and there is nothing you can do about that.

If somebody wants to criticize somebody who is responsible for religious violence which caused the deaths of a large number of people he/she is free to do so.

If you ancient books prohibit you (for whatever non rational reason) then you can follow them if you want to, thats your right, but dont force those "laws" on others.

Period.

To fell in argument you need knowledge, not cartoons... To criticize somebody you again need knowledge not cartoons....If you oppose someone's religion just a sentence... I OPPOSE THIS POINT BECAUSE OF THIS...is enough... I'm not a radical Muslim I merely follow my religion or any other but I do believe in God but it doesn't authorize me to insult any religion...again you fell into your own argumental trap...you need arguments not a cartoon filled mind...I'll never oppose any argumentative approach...ty.