Poland to ban religious (Halal) slaughter of animals

[Safriz]

I respect your right to follow your beliefs as you wish, as long as you respect other's rights to believe as they wish as well.

All science and and all religions change with time - including Islam. The rates of evolution of knowledge and thought are different for different cultures and societies, but they all change with time.

And finally, as I have said many times, it is simply pointless to claim scientific bases for religious beliefs.

(Please do not get angry. I am a Muslim too.)

Now come on Vcheng...
I know you are a muslim too. But since when you started caring if people get angry
Vcheng poison pen,thats how most of us like you.
Kindly dont change that.
And yes i agree respect goes both ways,as long as it does not interfere with my rights i can respect all religions,non-religion.

 

[A1Kaid]

I feel guilty everytime I eat halal meat.

You shouldn't eat halal meat it can make you turn Muslim. Something you hate.

 

[VCheng]

Now come on Vcheng...
I know you are a muslim too. But since when you started caring if people get angry
Vcheng poison pen,thats how most of us like you.
Kindly dont change that.
And yes i agree respect goes both ways,as long as it does not interfere with my rights i can respect all religions,non-religion.

Poison Pen? Aw, I am hurt by that.

How about the Truthful Keyboard?

 

[livingdead]

You shouldn't eat halal meat it can make you turn Muslim. Something you hate.

I never said or tried to give any such impression. Its entirely your fault for thinking so.

 

[sur]

Poland to ban religious slaughter of animals - Telegraph

Hmm.. too much of human rights and religious freedom, double standard of west at its best. I dare not to imagine reaction from world if same actions would have taken by a country in east.

Muslims have takes Halal meat issue to too extreme. Most of muslims just follow band-wagon without bothering to study WHAT the requirements to halal actually ARE!!!

2 things are required; severing of blood vessels to allow the blood to flow & taking the name of God Almighty. The way they slaughter in West (which I have seen) they sever the neck & let the blood flow. So that one condition fulfilled. As to 2nd condition, Hadees below make a permission that we can say name of God even after it meal is prepared. The video posted also says the same.

One misconception that is common is "Jhatkay Walaa Meat". They think that animals are killed by striking them on head etc. Which is wrong. They stun the animal by hitting it on back of neck/head & presume that in doing so animal will NOT feel the pain of slaughter that much. Animal does NOT die, in fact when I saw them doing it, animal kept standing on its legs & was then taken to a rotating cage where 4 animals were trapped & then their throats were slit with a rotating disc-blade. & Blood was allowed to flow. Spine was NOT severed, only the neck blood-vessels were.
=
=

Watch this video & read Ahadees below. Even thou everyone in West might NOT be Ahl-e-Kitaab BUT method of slaughter is that of Ahl-e-Kitaab. So meat prepared in west would be considered food of Ahl-e-Kitaab.
=
=
Q&A: Are McDonald's and Burger King Halal? - Jamal Badawi - YouTube
=
=


=
=
Abu Dawood:Book 9, Number 2823:
Narrated 'A'ishah: (the narrator Musa did not mention the words "from 'A'ishah in his worsion from Hammad, and al-Qa'nabi also did not mention the words "from 'A'ishah" in his version from Malik): They (the people) said: Apostle of Allah, there are people here, recent converts from polytheism, who bring us meat and we do not know whether or not they mentioned Allah's name over it. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Mention Allah's name and eat.

Abu Dawood:9:2811:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:The verse: "So eat of (meats) on which Allah's name hath been pronounced (Qur'an vi. 118)" and the verse: "Eat not of (meats) on which Allah's name hath not been pronounced (Qur'an v. 6)," were abrogated, meaning an exception was made therein by the verse: "The food of the people of the Book is lawful unto you and yours lawful unto them. (Qur'an vi. 121)"


Dawud :: Book 15 : Hadith 2820
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
Ibn Isa added: (Ibn Abbas) and AbuHurayrah said: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) forbade the devil's sacrifice. AbuIsa added in his version: This refers to the slaughtered animal whose skin cut off, and is then left to die without its jugular veins being severed.

Sunan Abu Dawood 9:2812-15, 2820, 2849-51

Quran:5:3-4, 6:118,121,145.

=
=

 

[sms]

All of you may not have noticed ... the rulings says that law of Poland prohibits killing of animal by Halal method only if animal is conscious. I think it is till legal to make animal unconscious and kill them by the method it need to be.

Does this requirement violates Islamic or Jews religious requirements?

 

[Joe Shearer]

But some things are thought to be wrong unanimously by all or most religions/non-religions...
Denying religion in general has caused the down hill spiral of values which have deteriorated over the years in the name of modernization.
Previously women were oppressed,now men are oppressed.In case of Divorce she walks away with half of His belongings..She can torment him and stalk him and abuse him..But if he does the same,he goes to jail.
I rather stick to a tried and tested system,my religion,instead of thinking of new ways of life....

Not eveything in religion can be proved by Science as science in non-constant and religion is a constant..
But some parts of religion do comply with Present day science...

I can understand your justification of halal on the grounds of religious belief, but your present position justifying religious belief because of a preposterous male chauvinist point of view is simply beyond comprehension, indeed, beyond comment. How primitive can one get? Tried and tested system? Tried for what, and tested for what? Are we discussing the comfort and fit of a favourite pair of slippers here?

I hope and wish, being unable to pray, that you have a daughter, or daughters, and that they grow up to be strident feminists (not the other, gentle kind) and put you in your place good and proper.

I also hope you will keep this forum posted on the narrative of your return to the tents and woven camel hair existence that you so sincerely seem to seek. A wide array of fans will await these tellings of your saga with bated breath.

 

[Safriz]

I can understand your justification of halal on the grounds of religious belief, but your present position justifying religious belief because of a preposterous male chauvinist point of view is simply beyond comprehension, indeed, beyond comment. How primitive can one get? Tried and tested system? Tried for what, and tested for what? Are we discussing the comfort and fit of a favourite pair of slippers here?

I hope and wish, being unable to pray, that you have a daughter, or daughters, and that they grow up to be strident feminists (not the other, gentle kind) and put you in your place good and proper.

I also hope you will keep this forum posted on the narrative of your return to the tents and woven camel hair existence that you so sincerely seem to seek. A wide array of fans will await these tellings of your saga with bated breath.

you took it too personal.......

 

[Joe Shearer]

you took it too personal.......

No, no, no, by the hair on my chinny-chin-chin. Critical, deploring, but not unfriendly, and not personal. On my honour.

The thought of you in robes in front of your tent, moodily flipping through your copy of the Najd News does have a certain illicit charm.

 

[third eye]

Muslims have takes Halal meat issue to too extreme. Most of muslims just follow band-wagon without bothering to study WHAT the requirements to halal actually ARE!!!

2 things are required; severing of blood vessels to allow the blood to flow & taking the name of God Almighty. The way they slaughter in West (which I have seen) they sever the neck & let the blood flow. So that one condition fulfilled. As to 2nd condition, Hadees below make a permission that we can say name of God even after it meal is prepared. The video posted also says the same.

One misconception that is common is "Jhatkay Walaa Meat". They think that animals are killed by striking them on head etc. Which is wrong. They stun the animal by hitting it on back of neck/head & presume that in doing so animal will NOT feel the pain of slaughter that much. Animal does NOT die, in fact when I saw them doing it, animal kept standing on its legs & was then taken to a rotating cage where 4 animals were trapped & then their throats were slit with a rotating disc-blade. & Blood was allowed to flow. Spine was NOT severed, only the neck blood-vessels were.
=
=

A very interesting counter point. I wonder what your fellow Muslims feel on this.

If this were right then the problem may appear to be solved.

I have a point with regard to the part in bold above on ' Jhatka Meat'.

I am not sure which place you refer to but in India there are two distinct types of meat sellers - Halal & Jhatka.

Halal needs no description, as regards Jhatka the head is severed in one stroke and blood allowed to flow. I have not seen or heard of any method where an animal is stunned by any means & then slaughtered.

In fact during dusherra when animals are slaughtered not being able to sever the head in one swoop is loss of face.

What I found interesting in what you wrote is that the prerequisite of severing of blood vessels & reciting the name of god are met in the 'Jhatka' way also.

 

[Developereo]

As a number of people have noted, we need to understand the rationale behind halal/kosher. As I understand it, the main rationale is to minimize pain to the animal.

The religious method is remarkably scientific in that it recognized, millenia ago, that the key sensory organ is the brain, not the body itself, so the best way to minimize pain is to put the brain out of commission as soon as possible. Given the technology of the past, and compared to contemporary methods, the best way to do that was to slit the jugular and drain the blood.

The caveat here is that it looks more cruel, and there are more effective modern ways to dull the brain. Therefore, a stunning bolt, after saying the prayer, and before slitting the throat, should keep all sides happy.

 

[sur]

...as regards Jhatka the head is severed in one stroke and blood allowed to flow. I have not seen or heard of any method where an animal is stunned by any means & then slaughtered....

Place I referred to was in USA.
& as to ur question; I am not quite sure what if head is severed altogether!!! As far as my reading of Islamic texts (Quran/Hadees) is concerned, they do NOT specify whether spine should be left intact or not. All they say is that "Blood should be allowed to flow" i.e. animal should NOT have died natural death from some disease etc nor be killed from strangulation or dropping from a height or as one of the Hadees that I quoted says some ppl used to kill animal by stripping its skin without slaughtering it. etc. I have read quite a bit of Hadees on this topic but didn't come across any that said anything about severing or not severing the vertebral column (spine). But I am not an expert & might have missed something...!!!

...As I understand it, the main rationale is to minimize pain to the animal. The religious method is remarkably scientific in that it recognized, millenia ago, that the key sensory organ is the brain, not the body itself, so the best way to minimize pain is to put the brain out of commission as soon as possible...

I agree. Many ppl might have experienced "black-outs" as they stand-up from lying or sitting position; whereby their vision goes black & also feel numbfor few seconds before they gain sight & feelings back. It happens with ONLY 20% reduction of blood flow to brain. While in islamic style slaughter almost 100% of blood flow to brain is halted. So animal stops to be conscious of ANYTHING going on with it. Jerking of limbs is merely a spinal-reflex, without the brain aware of any pain.

Once I dropped an iron window that was waiting to be installed in our house that was under construction. I got a deep cut on my toe, but did NOT feel any pain until ~10-20 seconds. In fact for ~5 seconds i wasn't even aware that it dropped on my toe & was just worrying about dropped window, until I saw my toe bleeding. Then I carefully walked to my parents with that injury still without feeling any pain. Only after I sat down the pain started.

Point is if animal is slaughtered with a sharp knife & vessels in neck are cut quickly, it won't feel even the cut on the skin.

 

[Joe Shearer]

As a number of people have noted, we need to understand the rationale behind halal/kosher. As I understand it, the main rationale is to minimize pain to the animal.

The religious method is remarkably scientific in that it recognized, millenia ago, that the key sensory organ is the brain, not the body itself, so the best way to minimize pain is to put the brain out of commission as soon as possible. Given the technology of the past, and compared to contemporary methods, the best way to do that was to slit the jugular and drain the blood.

The caveat here is that it looks more cruel, and there are more effective modern ways to dull the brain. Therefore, a stunning bolt, after saying the prayer, and before slitting the throat, should keep all sides happy.

Not all sides....

 

[Spring Onion]

Poison Pen? Aw, I am hurt by that.

How about the Truthful Keyboard?

Recent studies say Keyboards are more poisness with their ability to attract most of the Germs

 

[Developereo]

Jerking of limbs is merely a spinal-reflex, without the brain aware of any pain.
[...]
Point is if animal is slaughtered with a sharp knife & vessels in neck are cut quickly, it won't feel even the cut on the skin.

Agree. This whole debate on halal/kosher is about perception rather than scientific fact. However, stunning the animal seems like an acceptable compromise.

Not all sides....

The religious people should be happy since the animal gets to hear the prayers while conscious, i.e. before stunning. Also, the animal would be alive, albeit stunned, when the jugular is cut so the blood should drain properly.

The animal rights people should be happy once they understand that blood circulation is an autonomous function, so all the blood spurting out from the cut jugular does not mean that the stunned brain is feeling any pain.