Point Of View with ArzooKazmi : An Indian Muslim's stance on Ayodhya

[El Sidd]

No 8 grader is a poster on this forum. So I believe, it is an easy rule to understand.
DO NOT DRAG RELIGIONS INTO AN IRRELEVANT DISCUSSION.

There are many threads on video games. 8th graders may frequent the forum as well.

Before it was unfair. Now its just Modi logic

 

[Moonlight]

There are many threads on video games. 8th graders may frequent the forum as well.

Before it was unfair. Now its just Modi logic

Tag a single member who has joined the forum and he/she is an 8 grader. So I will explain the rules in even an easier way.

 

[El Sidd]

Tag a single member who has joined the forum and he/she is an 8 grader. So I will explain the rules in even an easier way.

Why are you assuming 8th graders to be ignorant?

 

[SuvarnaTeja]

If current generation muslims don't approve of their historical actions, then why are they muslims at all? No, it is not just forefathers as people can convert into or out of it. Also, in 600AD, there was no Islam. So, it is not simply that one becomes muslim because he is born to muslim family. If one disapproves of the historical aspects of Islam, then he must disown that history and get out of Islam. Not getting out of Islam shows support for these actions

So mean to say the Abdullahs of Kashmir who embraced Islam in 1900s did so because they endorse the actions of Babar back in 1500s? Are you not stretching this just for the sake of an argument?

I would only hold those people accountable who endorse the actions of Babar but not who disassociate from those actions like @xeuss did on this thread.

 

[Moonlight]

Why are you assuming 8th graders to be ignorant?

Woah, so now you gonna twist the words? I am not saying they are ignorants. But almost everyone who has joined this forum is an adult and understand religious discussion is a sensitive topic so when when to discuss and when to not.

 

[SuvarnaTeja]

The idea that the demolition was illegal does not make sense as this is war. Wars are never legal as laws are just means of cheap ways to avoid war. Since demolition of temple by Mughals was also not legal, there simply is no logic in talking of legal or illegal things

One can keep arguing on whether it was legal or illegal but one thing is clear that it was the most stupid act done by the sanghi Hindus.

Destruction of Babri Mosque was akin to destroying evidence at the crime scene.

Now that the Mosque is razed and a new temple being built in another 100 years Muslims will claim that there were never any destruction of temples during Muslim rule akin to how they claim that there was no Holocaust.

I hope Hindus will at least preserve these two sites as-is as proof for generations to come.

Forgive but never Forget.

 

[SuvarnaTeja]

Forefathers?

The only link between Babur and myself is that we share a same religion. Since when did Babur or any of the other Muslim rulers become the forefathers of 200 million Muslims of India.

My comment was not meant for Muslims like you but Muslims who endorse the acts of tyranny perpetrated by erst while Islamic rulers.

 

[SuvarnaTeja]

I never dreamt I would agree with any post by you. Well said. The arrogance of those who claim ownership of an entire community, including those that they have victimised over the centuries, is what stands out from this whole mess.

Hinduism has its issues but that does not absolve the acts of tyranny committed by the erst while Islamic rulers on the Hindus.

Nice try bringing in the whataboutism to this discussion.

 

[Smarana Mitra]

Hinduism was abhorrent to us


Islam was a far superior system that our people embraced, there are 600 million Muslims in South Asia now and you want us to abandon the path of God and go back to worshipping idols, stones and animals like some jahil??

You tripping bruv

Why do you think opposite is not true? There are 600 million muslims but there are also 1.2 billion others.

For accuracy. Indian Muslims now or in the past played no role in Indian conquest any real terms.

they are just a by product of Muslims who converted them.

wrong of majority of your Hindu faith to harass them now like I said,
they are not , Babars, abdali, ghauri just tiny names of Muslim who you annoyed with.

maybe try us Pakistan our fore fathers certain places were part of this

There is nothing called Indian muslims. All muslims are converts as in 600AD, there was no muslim. Naturally, in any point of time, there can only be small number of kings or leaders. That does not mean others are unimportant and irrelevant. Leaders don't exist in isolation.

I respect the ethical point that you are trying to make.

It makes sense.

But in the end, all land - heck, everything belongs to Him. If He decided for a masjid to be built who are we to decide against it?

Isn't the same true in opposite view? If "he" decides that mosques must be replaced with temples, who are we to decide against it?

Sorry.

There was a consensus in the Middle Ages.

Vae victis.

This was followed by all sides, all over the world.

Hindus 500 years back COULD NOT protect it.

Now they want this generation of Muslims to pay for their cowardice centuries earlier. What sense does it make?

There can be no neutral approach here. ONly a masjid should be there. Nothing else.

The current solution was possible ONLY because India is currently Hindu Majority and political power rests with Hindus. WHen that changes, the corrections will be made. As simple as that.

Muslims today could not protect it. What sense does it make to justify the cowardice by complaining?

So mean to say the Abdullahs of Kashmir who embraced Islam in 1900s did so because they endorse the actions of Babar back in 1500s? Are you not stretching this just for the sake of an argument?

I would only hold those people accountable who endorse the actions of Babar but not who disassociate from those actions like @xeuss did on this thread.

Abdullahs converted in 1900s? That is new. Where did you find it?
Secondly, that work was not some idiosyncracy of Babur as this was done even in case of Muhammad himself. Muhammad destroyed the idols in Kaaba and made it a mosque

One can keep arguing on whether it was legal or illegal but one thing is clear that it was the most stupid act done by the sanghi Hindus.

Destruction of Babri Mosque was akin to destroying evidence at the crime scene.

Now that the Mosque is razed and a new temple being built in another 100 years Muslims will claim that there were never any destruction of temples during Muslim rule akin to how they claim that there was no Holocaust.

I hope Hindus will at least preserve these two sites as-is as proof for generations to come.

Forgive but never Forget.

View attachment 659953

What is the use of having proofs? What purpose does it serve if it gives no results? What is the RESULT you are talking of?

 

[letsrock]

Hinduism has its issues but that does not absolve the acts of tyranny committed by the erst while Islamic rulers on the Hindus.

Nice try bringing in the whataboutism to this discussion.

you want to solve 15th century issues of kings and conquereors by hurting the religion of atleast 200 million indians and more than a billion of that faith worldwide ? basically you want india to be a hindu empire.

 

[Smarana Mitra]

"Hindus" really ? if babar detroyed temple officiated only by brahmins from cowbelt - how is it a problem for a dalit in tamil nadu. A country whose judiciary cannot prosecute vast majority of crimes in modern era is prosecuting something happened centuries ago when its judicial system did not even exist and making it a problem of "hindus" while ignoring their real problems of dignity, occupation etc.

If someone destroys a mosque or burns quran dictated by some Arabic king calling himself prophet, how should it affect someone in Indonesia or Bangladesh? Merely because judiciary can't prosecute crimes in older times does not mean nothing should be done. Judiciary is not the owner of people and their lives. Judiciary has limited jurisdiction and should live within that.

 

[xeuss]

My comment was not meant for Muslims like you but Muslims who endorse the acts of tyranny perpetrated by erst while Islamic rulers.

Curious....which Muslims have you met that endorses any actions of (any) erstwhile rulers? They were rulers who happened to be Muslims. All their actions were in the best interests of themselves and their empires.

Generally, normal people look back at history to understand the times of the past. It is only in India where history is used to settle scores to paint entire communities as good or bad.

 

[Smarana Mitra]

Curious....which Muslims have you met that endorses any actions of (any) erstwhile rulers? They were rulers who happened to be Muslims. All their actions were in the best interests of themselves and their empires.

Generally, normal people look back at history to understand the times of the past. It is only in India where history is used to settle scores to paint entire communities as good or bad.

The definition of muslim is that he is one who follows the path of an Arabic king Muhammad and considers him as prophet and spiritual leader. Before 600AD, there was no muslim at all. If people simply refuse to follow historical ruler (in this case, Muhammad), there would be no Islam today!

 

[xeuss]

The definition of muslim is that he is one who follows the path of an Arabic king Muhammad and considers him as prophet and spiritual leader. Before 600AD, there was no muslim at all. If people simply refuse to follow historical ruler (in this case, Muhammad), there would be no Islam today!

Could you tell me which school did you attend and who was your history teacher?

 

[SuvarnaTeja]

Abdullahs converted in 1900s? That is new. Where did you find it?

Sheikh Abdullah was born in 1905 in Soura, a village near Srinagar. His father Sheikh Ibrahim, a middle-class trader in shawls, died just eleven days before he was born. And Sheikh Ibrahim, the father, was the descendant of a Hindu convert named Ragho Ram Koul, a Kashmiri Pandit. Despite poverty and hardships, Sheikh Abdullah not only finished his high schooling in Kashmir but went on to complete B.Sc. from Lahore, and then M.Sc. (Chemistry) from Aligarh Muslim University in 1930.

http://creative.sulekha.com/kashmir...l-to-india-s-nehru-gandhi-dynasty_542236_blog

Secondly, that work was not some idiosyncracy of Babur as this was done even in case of Muhammad himself. Muhammad destroyed the idols in Kaaba and made it a mosque

How does destruction of idols in Kaaba related to Hindus? Are you implying those were Hindu Idols?

What is the use of having proofs? What purpose does it serve if it gives no results? What is the RESULT you are talking of?

The result is for my future generations to get educated.

For example, Hindus could have made the Babri Mosque as a tourist spot with a Huge Ram temple adjacent to it. Everyone which visited the temple will have an opportunity to see how the original temple was destroyed and a mosque built its place.

Why will this new Ram temple do? It just washes away the evidence and people will forget this act of Babar in couple of decades.