PN mini-submarine fleet

[GriffinsRule]

Therefore, remote control has no meaning, anymore. The concept that stands out here is autonomous machines. Today, even in the simplest tactical UAV systems, the most intensive field of study is the decision support systems and ECM components.

In underwater communication, the use of Optical Communication Systems is increasing.

Conventionally, RF and acoustic technologies are used in submarine communication systems. This has several disadvantages. In these, jamming , signal-cutting and listening can be done by enemy-counterparts. Optical systems are developed as an alternative to RF communication and as a hybrid model. It will be a very important multiplier to gain the ability to communicate, inaudible, uncuttable and unjamable, especially between submarine-helicopters, submarine-divers(or UUVs) and at the same time with surface ships.

What is the visibility like underwater during day or night time for these Optical Communication Systems to work?

 

[Thorough Pro]

Drone needs to be submerged, not its antenna, and antenna does not have to be vertical to be visible, it can be horizontal just floating on the surface a few inches above water, secured to the drone via cable, along with solar or wave charger with backup regular fuel for attack mode. It's doable, at least should be experimented with. it will be at least 10/15 times cheaper than the mini sub, will cover a larger area, will be quite and at the same time can listen with underwater microphones and transmit limited/selected data to sat.

How would one control/communicate an unmanned sub hundreds of miles out in the ocean and underwater? And if that communication is lost for whatever reason, how would that link be re-established and would that mean the sub sinks to the bottom of the ocean in the meantime or surfaces for anyone to come in and grab it?

Overall the idea sounds completely unfeasible to me, bar some giant technological leap that sprouts up in Pakistan. What the likelihood of that happening is, we can all guess, but I think this idea can be shelved and revisited maybe after another 30 years or so.

satellite, what else?

you know they control rovers on moon and mars from earth?

and what will be the means of "remote control" in the sea? i am curious

 

[GriffinsRule]

satellite, what else?

you know they control rovers on moon and mars from earth?

So basically my timeline of 2050 is more or less correct as Pakistan does not have the capability to control any underwater crafts at any distances being envisioned here.

 

[Thorough Pro]

We already use satellites for telecommunication, its the same principal, only highly encrypted. I worked on this conceptual design (theoretical) sometime back, believe me very doable. at least worth spending 5/10 million on proof of concept.

So basically my timeline of 2050 is more or less correct as Pakistan does not have the capability to control any underwater crafts at any distances being envisioned here.

 

[Armchair]

all the while you are ignoring that an autonomous UUV does not need to be controlled, they can simple use INS to get to a location, and use its weapons.

So now, by ignoring this you then go into a long winded argument of how "this remote control" won't happen till 2050 and what not, all the while leaving PN with a disruptive technology to put to threat some of India's most major ports.

This is what we call myopia.

We can field a system that works now, at minimal cost. But you will ignore it instead.

The UK found submarines way before the rest, but kept this technology out of the game for as long as they could. What advantage do we have in keeping this technology in a bag for so long?

 

[GriffinsRule]

all the while you are ignoring that an autonomous UUV does not need to be controlled, they can simple use INS to get to a location, and use its weapons.

So now, by ignoring this you then go into a long winded argument of how "this remote control" won't happen till 2050 and what not, all the while leaving PN with a disruptive technology to put to threat some of India's most major ports.

This is what we call myopia.

We can field a system that works now, at minimal cost. But you will ignore it instead.

The UK found submarines way before the rest, but kept this technology out of the game for as long as they could. What advantage do we have in keeping this technology in a bag for so long?

It's not myopia. I'm just showing that your idea is not feasible in the near or medium term. And even if feasible, it's full of potential pitfalls. But again it's my opinion vs yours, so take it as that

As for your fully autonomous idea, what would happen in this hypothetical scenario? War breaks out, Pakistan launches a few of these fully autonomous uuvs towards different Indian ports. Takes them say 7 days to get there, war however ended after 5 days. Now they have shot their full load of weapons into ships (civil and military) at the port without reason during peacetime. What would be the fallout of that?

There are better technologies we can spend our time, brainpower and money towards that would yield far better results then and have a more far reaching impact then day UUVs. It's okay as far as though experiments go, but not realistic

 

[Armchair]

It's not myopia. I'm just showing that your idea is not feasible in the near or medium term. And even if feasible, it's full of potential pitfalls. But again it's my opinion vs yours, so take it as that

As for your fully autonomous idea, what would happen in this hypothetical scenario? War breaks out, Pakistan launches a few of these fully autonomous uuvs towards different Indian ports. Takes them say 7 days to get there, war however ended after 5 days. Now they have shot their full load of weapons into ships (civil and military) at the port without reason during peacetime. What would be the fallout of that?

There are better technologies we can spend our time, brainpower and money towards that would yield far better results then and have a more far reaching impact then day UUVs. It's okay as far as though experiments go, but not realistic

Oh my. oh my. You imagine that a UUV would take 7 days to reach Mumbai port from Karachi? I'm afraid you need to re-evaluate the facts that you are living with.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Oh my. oh my. You imagine that a UUV would take 7 days to reach Mumbai port from Karachi? I'm afraid you need to re-evaluate the facts that you are living with.

Haha, good try. First off there are a lot more ports of interest we would attack then just Mumbai, which btw I did not specify. Second, you can keep trying to playing with numbers to try to score cheap points but your idea still fails on its merits. The point of the hypothetical example was simple, war can end before your supposed fully autonomous sub ever reaches it's target. Only the most idiotic policy maker would ever use a weapon they can't control for as long as possible. But you can keep dreaming. No harm no foul there

 

[Armchair]

Haha, good try. First off there are a lot more ports of interest we would attack then just Mumbai, which btw I did not specify. Second, you can keep trying to playing with numbers to try to score cheap points but your idea still fails on its merits. The point of the hypothetical example was simple, war can end before your supposed fully autonomous sub ever reaches it's target. Only the most idiotic policy maker would ever use a weapon they can't control for as long as possible. But you can keep dreaming. No harm no foul there

So, you then admit that we can use such a simple autonomous UUV to attack Mumbai port during a war? How many ports and naval bases do you think we can attack with such a system? Even if that number is 5, imagine the nightmare such devices could create for these ports and naval bases.

In previous wars, we were not able to attack a single Indian port or naval base.

If you note, I have said from the first that the aim of such a device would be to hit their Western theater. No one claimed we are going to Kolkata with them bruv.

 

[GriffinsRule]

So, you then admit that we can use such a simple autonomous UUV to attack Mumbai port during a war? How many ports and naval bases do you think we can attack with such a system? Even if that number is 5, imagine the nightmare such devices could create for these ports and naval bases.

In previous wars, we were not able to attack a single Indian port or naval base.

If you note, I have said from the first that the aim of such a device would be to hit their Western theater. No one claimed we are going to Kolkata with them bruv.

No I dont admit it. Pakistan does not have the capability, and "even if it did" the idea is unfeasible.

India seaports here;
https://www.mapsofindia.com/maps/sea-ports/

 

[Armchair]

No I dont admit it. Pakistan does not have the capability, and "even if it did" the idea is unfeasible.

India seaports here;
https://www.mapsofindia.com/maps/sea-ports/

Still sticking to "Indian ports are 7 days away"? Well, I think your words are self-explanatory to everyone. If only everyone was as smart as you and could give such intelligent arguments such as "the idea is unfeasible" along with the infamous 7 days story. There is no purpose in beating this dead horse with you, so I'm going to leave you to it.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Still sticking to "Indian ports are 7 days away"? Well, I think your words are self-explanatory to everyone. If only everyone was as smart as you and could give such intelligent arguments such as "the idea is unfeasible" along with the infamous 7 days story. There is no purpose in beating this dead horse with you, so I'm going to leave you to it.

Your posts keep getting more idiotic every time respond.
Since you dont understand the meaning of the word hypothetical, why dont you put some numbers behind your cockamamie theory and come back with some "Facts". Feel free to ignore what I was trying to convey in my prior post, which clearly went over your head.

 

[araz]

@Armchair and @GriffinsRule . Gentlemen can I please request you to take this conversation to PM if you want to continue it. The points you both wanted to make have been made and the bickering is distasteful. As always this note to the two of you is with all due respects.
Kind regards
A

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Just a side point.

Source: Defence Turkey (Issue 91. Volume 13. 2019)

STM will also take part in the PN’s new Miniature Submarine Program.

As per the PN’s request, STM had studied the feasibility of upgrading the Cosmos MG110 (SX756/W) mini-submarines, which were bought in the 1980s to replace the SX404 mini-submarines, but both sides then concluded that this was not an affordable route.

The PN Submarine Force took pride in operating 3 X-Craft (Cosmos MG110s), which were transferred to the Squadron in March 2005 from the Special Service Group Navy (SSG[N]). This has enhanced the number of sub-surface units to 8 instead of 5 having been in operation prior March 2005.

STM, later on put a proposal on the table covering the joint development and marketing of a new generation mini-submarine intended for special forces operations (such as insertions and extractions of SEAL Teams) in littoral waters not only to meet the PN’s (to replace aging Cosmos MG110 in the inventory) but also the Turkish Navy’s (considered TKMS Type 200 and Type 300 mini-sub designs in the past) and other potential customers (Azerbaijan is said to have already declared its interest according to our sources) requirements.

So, STM has designed a new type of mini-submarine platform for the PN from scratch and STM General Manager Murat IKINCI presented a scaled model of this mini-submarine to Pakistan’s Ministry of Defence Production during the signing ceremony for the second contract amendment held in Rawalpindi, Pakistan.
​

It seems that scaled mock-up is this:

Is the Navy buying from STM a submarine design? Has this contract been signed?

The idea, well my idea at least, is to keep it simple. War starts with India, let the little buggers putter away towards an Indian port, once in the vicinity, target anything that moves. No need for us to communicate. Self-destruct once all torpedoes are lost, or go kamakazi.

If anyone tries to grab it, blow up, after shooting all torpedoes of course. Think of it as an underwater MIRV cum cruise missile.

where is @Bilal Khan 777 ?

Indian ports are relatively close to Pakistan, and many of their major ports including Mumbai could easily be targeted this way in case of war.

In the hospital most of the time.

 

[PDF]

In the hospital most of the time.

What happened Sir?