PN Capabilities - Indian View

[Bull]

The US Navy itself has plans to use the aircraft for the next 15 years and expects to support the fleet elsewhere for another two decades plus.

I doubt it, US is planning to replace the orions with the P8 in the next 5 years.

 

[Contrarian]

This article of the P3C's affect in teh subcontinent is AGES old. P-8 is the name of the new game. P3C's are passe. Hell im surprised buyt the 'New' P3C's are competeting in the Indian Naval tender for 8 MPA's along with P-8. They say its completely different with the existing ones, there's a difference in the body structure of these P3C's too. This article is suited to the time when PN first got the P3C's, its redundant now, we got IL-38 with SeaDragon suites, etc, etc now.

 

[melb4aust]

This article of the P3C's affect in teh subcontinent is AGES old. P-8 is the name of the new game. P3C's are passe. Hell im surprised buyt the 'New' P3C's are competeting in the Indian Naval tender for 8 MPA's along with P-8. They say its completely different with the existing ones, there's a difference in the body structure of these P3C's too. This article is suited to the time when PN first got the P3C's, its redundant now, we got IL-38 with SeaDragon suites, etc, etc now.

Surely you'll get the better stuff...... without any doubt.

 

[Bull]

Some more developement...

In mid-November, Navy officials issued a request for information to nine shipyards in France, Italy, Russia, South Korea, Spain and the United States, seeking a roughly $8 billion deal to buy one frigate and obtain licenses to produce six more in India.

The Indian yards that would build the new frigates include state-owned Mazagon Docks in Mumbai and Garden Reach Shipbuilders in Kolkata.
The officials, who were expecting preliminary responses by year’s end, intend to issue formal requests for proposals to a short list of shipyards by mid-2007. A contract could be signed by 2009, a Defence Ministry official said.

An Indian Navy official said the frigates could resemble the Italo-French Horizon Common New Generation Frigate, an air warfare ship.

Officials said the ships, intended to operate far from home for long periods, would be armed with the Indo-Israeli Barak-2 air defense system, the Indo-Russian BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, Advanced Light Helicopters, Kamov anti-submarine helicopters, rotary-wing unmanned aerial vehicles, 3-D multimode surveillance radar, and advanced weapon and navigational controls. The ships will become the first Indian frigates to be directly connected with a dedicated military satellite.

 

[Adux]

Surely you'll get the better stuff...... without any doubt.

and you have the ISI

 

[EagleEyes]

I doubt it, US is planning to replace the orions with the P8 in the next 5 years.

Where did you get the information that U.S is planning to replace Orions with in the next 5 years? Do you even have any idea how many Orions are in United States and Japan and other countries, and how long they will remain in service? It will take more than 10 years or even 20 to replace P-3C Orions in the U.S. That means India is not getting P-8 in another 7-8 years. P-8 deal for India will not be approved by the Congress unless there are significant amount of P-8 produced to replace the bad conditioned P-3C Orions while the good amount of them will remain in service until their replace has been produced. Has the deal for P-8 yet signed? Exactly!

Russians are giving you guys Tu-22M too (The deal is not signed), and it is no different than P-3C, but i would take Harpoons versus KH-15A any day.

So there is no use to show your superiority when there isn't any.

 

[Keysersoze]

This article of the P3C's affect in teh subcontinent is AGES old. P-8 is the name of the new game. P3C's are passe. Hell im surprised buyt the 'New' P3C's are competeting in the Indian Naval tender for 8 MPA's along with P-8. They say its completely different with the existing ones, there's a difference in the body structure of these P3C's too. This article is suited to the time when PN first got the P3C's, its redundant now, we got IL-38 with SeaDragon suites, etc, etc now.

P-3's are far from passe. In fact there have a lot of grumblings about the P-8 in most of the Navy blogs that I have read.

US Navy Struggles to Recapture, Keep ASW Proficiency

In the past several years the US Navy has reacquired an urgency about anti-submarine warfare. A poor step-child of the Navy since the fall of the USSR (along with mine-hunting), ASW is once again being recognized as a critical capability.

Of the more than 10,000 hours flown by Navy P-3Cs in the Persian Gulf, none of this time involved ASW. Rather, the missions involved supporting ground troops in Iraq and performing maritime interception operations as part of the coalition's stopping illegal smuggling of oil. While meeting the current needs of the service after essentially abandoning ASW after the collapse of the USSR, the world’s navies – the US Navy in the forefront -- find themselves ill-equipped to counter the explosive growth in the Third World fleet of stealthy, fourth generation diesel-electric subs like the U-212/214-class and the Scorpene-class. Such current technology subs can stay submerged for days without need for snorkeling. Equipped with Air Independent Propulsion closed-oxygen diesel drives that burn ethanol and liquid oxygen to make steam to drive a turbo-electric generator, the design permits retrofitting into existing submarines by adding an extra hull section. Typical cost for a new submarine powered by AIP is $250 million. These warships are openly for sale to almost anyone with a big enough checking account (except Taiwan, but that’s another story). For the budget-conscious – or someone simply in a hurry to raise hell with an allied navy -- a Russian P-130 or Piranha-T Small-class submarine may be purchased for a fraction of the cost of a Scorpene. In the past several years, both US and allied forces have been dismayed to have their ships “sunk” (including an aircraft carrier) by small but new diesel-electric submarines such as Sweden’s “Gotland” playing the enemy in exercises.

Recognizing this large hole in national defense, the US Navy in 2004 stood up the Fleet ASW Command and allocated more money to oversee ASW training. In addition to a new generation of active sonobouys, the Navy is working on such advanced technologies as floating sensor grids and other networked, distributed systems that operate without a vessel or aircraft nearby. The P-8A aircraft, to replace the P-3C (and perhaps the EP-3E as well) has been in development for several years, although its eventual production in sufficient numbers to do the job remains in serious doubt.

In late 2005, the Navy released additional information regarding current and foreseeable multiple missions with a smaller, more disperse maritime patrol and reconnaissance force – today’s P-3Cs and the promised P-8A replacement. The Navy’s fleet of operational P-3Cs has decreased from a listed 227 in 2003 to just 150 by mid- 2005, with 54 of these grounded for serious maintenance or re-winging (the P-3 was designed for a service life of 20,000 hours; many are now pushing 30,000 hours and are 40 years old, flogging through the harsh, unforgiving environment of salt water spray and constant low-level flight). The P-8A isn’t scheduled to hit the fleet starting in 2013 and replacing the last P-3C in 2019. Whether the Navy buys the P-8 as the replacement for the EP-3E is unknown. The Army recently rejected the ERJ-145 planned replacement for the Aerial Common Sensor Aircraft. The 145 was to have served both the Army and the Navy.

The critical shortage of P-3Cs has resulted in an almost total cessation of training when a squadron returns home from deployment as most of its aircraft are quickly cycled back to the fleet for overseas operations. In 1991 the Navy had 25 active and 13 reserve VP squadrons, each with nine airplanes. Today it has 12 active operational and six reserve squadrons, with all reserve squadrons to have been decommissioned by 2007. There are simply no aircraft to spare for the reserves any longer. Today, the Navy is down to just three deployment sites with each squadron having just eight airplanes each, a total of 24 planes. With the P-8 still just a drawing, the future of US Navy patrol aviation is in serious doubt at a time when the threat from Middle Eastern diesel-electric subs is ever more intense. The Navy’s decommissioning of its S-3B squadrons leaves the fleet even more vulnerable to this threat. Further, the P-8 is a big airplane unsuitable for the low-level (i.e. 200 feet over the water) active prosecution tactics used by the P-3 with such sensors as MAD. Instead, the Navy is planning to go with such untested upgrades as a new generation of extended echo range (EER) active (pinger) sonobouys, each equipped with GPS so as to have a constantly updated tactical plot.

While -- according to the Navy’s ASW Command/Fleet Replacement Patrol Squadron THIRTY -- ASW is still the primary mission focus for P-3s, annual ASW training done at the squadron level is approximately one-third of that conducted twenty years ago.

As the Navy plans for a fleet of perhaps 265 warships (down from 586 in 1988 and the smallest Navy since 1912), it states that the P-8A is fully funded through fleet introduction planned for 2012-2013. Full funding for replacement of the P-3C is yet to occur and not a sure thing, especially as the War on Terrorism is likely to continue into the foreseeable future. The Navy admits that even today’s 12 active VP squadrons are “likely to decrease” in number. This reporter estimates a total of four active P-8 squadrons plus a fifth fleet replacement squadron. Each active squadron (there will be no reserve VP squadrons) is likely to have eight aircraft. With another twelve or so for the FRS, we are likely to see, at best, fifty P-8 aircraft trying to do the job of over 200 P-3Cs. Look for UAVs to assume an ever greater portion of military aviation. While the outlook for success under this plan is clouded, the danger posed by enemy submarines is sharply defined.


http://navlog.org/asw_feb06.html

 

[Adux]

Keys,

please provide the source.

Adu

 

[Adux]

Where did you get the information that U.S is planning to replace Orions with in the next 5 years? Do you even have any idea how many Orions are in United States and Japan and other countries, and how long they will remain in service? It will take more than 10 years or even 20 to replace P-3C Orions in the U.S. That means India is not getting P-8 in another 7-8 years. P-8 deal for India will not be approved by the Congress unless there are significant amount of P-8 produced to replace the bad conditioned P-3C Orions while the good amount of them will remain in service until their replace has been produced. Has the deal for P-8 yet signed? Exactly!

Russians are giving you guys Tu-22M too (The deal is not signed), and it is no different than P-3C, but i would take Harpoons versus KH-15A any day.

So there is no use to show your superiority when there isn't any.

Webby

Complelty agree with your posts, regarding the delivery of P-8's, but what i have heard is that they can start by 2009. But I see your point and would not heed to rumour mills.

Now TU-22M3, Is a supersonic, strategic asset, i dont if they are really coming to India or not, but if they are God help everyone. P-3C Propller plane will be taken out by the Fleet Defence fighters, While the Tu-22M3 can deliver its package higher, farther away and has a less chance of being taken out than a Propeller aircraft.
TU-22M3 would send jitters to the CHinese. Pakistan we already have them covered

 

[EagleEyes]

Yet, you dont have Tu-22M3. What do you think India would use it for? P-3C can only recieve a threat by the Indian naval fighters ONLY if the aircraft is closed by, which i believe they would be fool to do that. No wonder PN is getting E-2C Hawkeye with a (currently) couple of Mirage squadrons to support them, or hell may be JF-17, or F-16 in the future.

 

[Adux]

Webby,

Read my post again, I dont even think TU-22M3 are coming to India, as far as I am concerned they are all rumours.
None of your current aircrafts or ships are in a position of attacking or delievering packages to the Indian Fleet, except for your sub-fleet. Check the Indian Map Cochin, karwar, Goa, Pune, and bases in Dwarka, are all airstations of the IAF, on the sea coast. Aircarfts are available in Plenty. Not in your case. PAF cant handle IAF and IN airwing together period. If you are talking about the Future, then it just gets worse for Pakistan. Please dont compare your future stuff, to current Indian, please compare them to future Indian stuff of the same timeline. Checkmate.

 

[Contrarian]

"The US Navy plans to include 108 P-8As in its inventory by 2013. Boeing IDS has stated that if India opts for the P-8I, it can also be included in the further development programmes of the aircraft"-FORCE

BTW the IL's with the SeaDragon upgrade have MAD sensors as well. Its quite a nifty thing, this SD upgrade.

And people please, lets not kid ourselves, P-8 is the new generation of MPA's. Lets not start saying the P3C's were better or this or that. Sure the new P3C's are pretty good too, they have a different body apart from sensors as well.

 

[Contrarian]

Where did you get the information that U.S is planning to replace Orions with in the next 5 years? Do you even have any idea how many Orions are in United States and Japan and other countries, and how long they will remain in service? It will take more than 10 years or even 20 to replace P-3C Orions in the U.S.

We are not counting other countries there webby. I have posted in my previous post how many P-8's will join USN by 2012-13. The industrial production capacity will be on maximum long before that time. So planes will be produced quickly.

That means India is not getting P-8 in another 7-8 years. P-8 deal for India will not be approved by the Congress unless there are significant amount of P-8 produced to replace the bad conditioned P-3C Orions while the good amount of them will remain in service until their replace has been produced.

Whether the US congres approves it or not, is not dependent on whether USN can get its P3C's replaced on time or not. It depends on Boeing being able to complete its contractual obligations to USN on time. If that can be done, and Boeing says that it can deliver btw, then there is no question of congress butting in on the P-8I for IN. So this is just wishful thinking on your part.

Has the deal for P-8 yet signed? Exactly!

I dont think you know what the deal is here. The RFP has been issued about a year back. There are four competing planes, 1. The NEW P3C, 2. P-8I ,3. Russian whatever, 4. A-400M with something something, th european counterpart for the P-8.

Russians are giving you guys Tu-22M too (The deal is not signed), and it is no different than P-3C, but i would take Harpoons versus KH-15A any day.

There can be no deal signed, because the competition is STILL ON. Results to be declared by the middle of this year. P-8 is the favourite. Though P3C is pretty good too, again because its the new version so to speak.

So there is no use to show your superiority when there isn't any.

These are facts, forget Tu-22M or whatever.

 

[Bull]

Where did you get the information that U.S is planning to replace Orions with in the next 5 years? .

webby....???

Do you even have any idea how many Orions are in United States and Japan and other countries, .

There are 196 orions in USN service.
I never mentioend about any other national navies, i mentioned USN clearly.

And how long they will remain in service? .

They are scheduled for retirement in 2013 ( 6 years wrt to 5 years i quoted)

It will take more than 10 years or even 20 to replace P-3C Orions in the U.S. .

Rate of production is 12 -18 a year, 108 have been ordered. So at an average of 15 a year it will take 7 years and few months ( and not 10 or 20 as you say).

Has the deal for P-8 yet signed? .

Between whom, India and US? No, they have been invited for user trials in goa.

USN and Boeing have signed the contract to buy 108 P8 to replace the 196 Orions.

So there is no use to show your superiority when there isn't any.

Is something wrong with you or is it that im only finding it wierd reading such posts from you?

 

[EagleEyes]

We are not counting other countries there webby. I have posted in my previous post how many P-8's will join USN by 2012-13. The industrial production capacity will be on maximum long before that time. So planes will be produced quickly.

It doesn't matter wheather you like to count it or not. There are other countries who want the P-8 and Japan will be the first one to replace P-3C with them. If i am not wrong P-8 has yet to be developed and significant amount for funds are needed to go in a full mode. Read the unfunded list by the United States Navy to the Congress, and let me know.

Whether the US congres approves it or not, is not dependent on whether USN can get its P3C's replaced on time or not. It depends on Boeing being able to complete its contractual obligations to USN on time. If that can be done, and Boeing says that it can deliver btw, then there is no question of congress butting in on the P-8I for IN. So this is just wishful thinking on your part.

That is not the point that i would like you to think about it. The point that i was trying to make clear is that IN will not be getting P-8s unless recquirements of the USN is completed and that will delay the P-8s delivery and further more if the other countries decided to go for it.

I dont think you know what the deal is here. The RFP has been issued about a year back. There are four competing planes, 1. The NEW P3C, 2. P-8I ,3. Russian whatever, 4. A-400M with something something, th european counterpart for the P-8.

There is always a competition. Nothing new.

There can be no deal signed, because the competition is STILL ON. Results to be declared by the middle of this year. P-8 is the favourite. Though P3C is pretty good too, again because its the new version so to speak.

Keep the competition ON and take the delivery in ages.

These are facts, forget Tu-22M or whatever.

With the competitions ON, deliveries taking ages. I dont think so. PN is so far capable of denying superiority. Good luck.