PML-N resistance to PTI's Hydel Vision in KPK

[Jazzbot]

2013 elections were better than 2008 elections, which were better than 2002 elections. The system should be cleaned, not trashed.

In any case, I hardly have enough time to engage in debate anymore, since I had to shut my business down because of electricity issues. Now I am working in corporate. So tell about power generation and everything about it.

In the climate of political agitation, hardly anything can go right. I blame the agitators. One can not neatly and conveniently compartmentalize issues like you are doing. There are no angels in our politics.

Election 2013 were better than 08 / 02 because of the first time use of megnatic ink, voting on the basis of CNIC, care taker govt etc. But they were worse in terms of rigging. Now about rigging, we all might have difference of opinion but the fact of the matter is, rigging did happen. We have concrete proofs of this rigging now in shape of audit results of 7 - 10 constituencies that has been opened so far.

I'm sorry to hear about your business, same is the issue with everyone. I run my own little web development company. Started it 3 years ago, bought expansive computers and expansive power backup stuff, then the load shedding gradually increased. Making it hard for me to rely on the installed power backup options. I then had to sale my computers at cheap price and move to even more expansive laptops for my entire team. All this extra spending just because of electricity issues. Everyone is suffering from this. That is why I said, power generation projects should be spared from these dirty political games.

What PTI is doing is solely focused on election audit and votes recount in a free and fair way, but in retaliation, N-League is resorting to damaging cheap tactics. Just take this thread's topic as an example.

The system should be cleaned, not trashed.

Of-course. But who's gonna do that? Who deem his family business interests more important than the national interests? Or someone who has his everything in this country? The one who creates loop hole inside this system deliberately to save his own people or the one who talks about making this system robust so no one can create such loop holes in future for his personal gains? I can continue to post a long list of such things, but I know you are more aware about these things than me. It doesn't have to be IK who needs to reform this system, we need a good or relatively less corrupt person (than what we currently have or had in recent past) in power to get us rolling..

 

[Khalidr]

The Pmln is totally taking revenge in this case, they should not halt development project on the basis of political differences , on one side they can go ahead with Nandiput power project but here we are getting cheap and environment friendly electricity they start creating hurdles. This shows how immature our politicians and political system is, or may be federal government doesn't consider KPK a part of Pakistan, cuz in the end if this project goes on the beneficiary is Pakistani people not IK..
@Proudpakistaniguy your comments plz

 

[ajpirzada]

its amazing N supporters are finding a way out for the PMLN govt!

The project comparison should not be with any previous project but with the cost of production from any alternate projects. 1MW cost from this project will be definitely cheaper than any alternate mode of production such as coal, diesel etc

 

[syedali73]

My problem is that PTI and its supporters have been acting like adolescents while claiming higher moral ground. Its best if you do not tag me in future. I have my POV and I am not going to pull back just because you tag me.

I thought it was only me with whom you did not want to get engaged into discussion but I was wrong it seems. Why you ask everybody not to tag you? They are not tagging you because they want to convince you, but because they are replying to your posts. Replying to the posts is the 'right' of each an every poster on this forum. They may elect not to reply, but cannot be forced not to reply because someone does not like it. The key of not getting tagged is with you; stop posting your opinion and posters will stop replying to your posts, it is as simple as that.

 

[Chak Bamu]

I thought it was only me with whom you did not want to get engaged into discussion but I was wrong it seems. Why you ask everybody not to tag you? They are not tagging you because they want to convince you, but because they are replying to your posts. Replying to the posts is the 'right' of each an every poster on this forum. They may elect not to reply, but cannot be forced not to reply because someone does not like it. The key of not getting tagged is with you; stop posting your opinion and posters will stop replying to your posts, it is as simple as that.

Sir, I was tagged in the OP post, not subsequently. I am tired of all the political bickering. Even if I had time for it, I would avoid it nonetheless. It is quite pointless. What will be, will be - regardless of what we may think of it. Why quarrel about it?

 

[syedali73]

Sir, I was tagged in the OP post, not subsequently. I am tired of all the political bickering. Even if I had time for it, I would avoid it nonetheless. It is quite pointless. What will be, will be - regardless of what we may think of it. Why quarrel about it?

Such taggings can always be ignored conveniently. By urging posters not to tag you, you only present yourself as an arrogant mod, who you are not.

 

[Chak Bamu]

its amazing N supporters are finding a way out for the PMLN govt!

The project comparison should not be with any previous project but with the cost of production from any alternate projects. 1MW cost from this project will be definitely cheaper than any alternate mode of production such as coal, diesel etc

Hydel projects typically cost more to install than Thermal ones (Coal, Furnace oil). I would be wary of figures presented and would want due-diligence. If it costs much less, then the project may only have a seasonal output. In that case cost / MW would be a misleading indicator.

BTW, the only person trying to bring some depth to the discussion is me. If that makes me a 'N supporter', then you need to check your assumptions. Disagreeing with PTI does not make one an N-supporter. Your presumption is at fault here.

 

[syedali73]

Hydel projects typically cost more to install than Thermal ones (Coal, Furnace oil). I would be wary of figures presented and would want due-diligence. If it costs much less, then the project may only have a seasonal output. In that case cost / MW would be a misleading indicator.

BTW, the only person trying to bring some depth to the discussion is me. If that makes me a 'N supporter', then you need to check your assumptions. Disagreeing with PTI does not make one an N-supporter. Your presumption is at fault here.

My father is a Geologist with specialization in Hydrogeology. He has worked on Tarbela Dam and has been on various committees working on hydroelectric power project in Pakistan. According to him, the investment on hydroelectric power projects pays for itself due to the lower running/maintenance cost compared to that of furness oil or diesel or gas. Reason for that is, prices for the oil fluctuates but water is free. Moreover, the hydroelectric power turbines are simpler engineering compared to fuel oil/gas power stations.

 

[expert]

The Pmln is totally taking revenge in this case, they should not halt development project on the basis of political differences , on one side they can go ahead with Nandiput power project but here we are getting cheap and environment friendly electricity they start creating hurdles. This shows how immature our politicians and political system is, or may be federal government doesn't consider KPK a part of Pakistan, cuz in the end if this project goes on the beneficiary is Pakistani people not IK..
@Proudpakistaniguy your comments plz

If t

Hydel projects typically cost more to install than Thermal ones (Coal, Furnace oil). I would be wary of figures presented and would want due-diligence. If it costs much less, then the project may only have a seasonal output. In that case cost / MW would be a misleading indicator.

BTW, the only person trying to bring some depth to the discussion is me. If that makes me a 'N supporter', then you need to check your assumptions. Disagreeing with PTI does not make one an N-supporter. Your presumption is at fault here.

If that is the case, then the pmln government should conduct a comprehensive review and make it public. I don't think they can come with anything better than the farce that was the KPK white paper.

If they think this will decrease PTI popularity in kpk then they are wrong. KPKians are well aware and sadly, these moves will only increase their resentment towards punjabis in general.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Such taggings can always be ignored conveniently. By urging posters not to tag you, you only present yourself as an arrogant mod, who you are not.

Thanks.

I have to balance between my urge to share my POV and my aversion of an entangled political argument. It may seem selfish, but my objective is to offer my POV hoping to deepen the scope of discussion, but not stick around to defend it when a number of people question it. Its best to offer an explanation or two and then grow silent even when someone wishes to dispute.

If someone wishes not to understand, its best not to waste time making someone understand. Most partisans eventually begin to 'get' it. It just takes time. Can't rush it.

PTI is not an old party. Many persons, issues, thoughts, and ideologies are vying within it. It presents many contradictions and controversies, but over time it will become more streamlined. Some will abandon it, some will join back with it. Criticism will become less. PTI partisans would learn to handle criticism too. Things will become better over time. Meanwhile, its best to focus more on Pakistan's interest rather than PTI's.

I have advocated PTI's active participation in parliamentary politics and to give PML-N government tough time as credible opposition. I disagree with power politics and the obsession with bringing the government down by calling for fresh elections. This is counter-productive and strategically wrong - unless IK knows something I do not.

Sharifs can not stay in power for long. IK just needs to make sure that PTI stays visible and prominent as a viable alternative. The most important issue being faced by PTI is not elections or rigging, but ideological definition and system of succession. If these two things are not addressed, PTI will self-destruct. This is a lot more crucial than assuming power. But unfortunately I see fractures becoming more obvious. Two years invested into the party and the government would have done more for PTI than dharna-bazi.

Sorry for the massive OT, but I felt I needed to say this to you. Perhaps you will see how I see things.

My father is a Geologist with specialization in Hydrogeology. He has worked on Tarbela Dam and has been on various committees working on hydroelectric power project in Pakistan. According to him, the investment on hydroelectric power projects pays for itself due to the lower running/maintenance cost compared to that of furness oil or diesel or gas. Reason for that is, prices for the oil fluctuates but water is free. Moreover, the hydroelectric power turbines are simpler engineering compared to fuel oil/gas power stations.

I know that. I am not disputing this. I am just saying that the design of the project should be carefully looked at. Perhaps the low cost is because the project lacks / compromises upon storage. I hope you would agree that it would be a mistake to compromise upon an essential feature to keep the cost down.

In any case, there is a lot of information missing. What is one supposed to base one's opinion upon? In principle, I agree with OP. PML-N must not delay any project based on political enmity. I have only been pointing out that such a stance is a reaction (a flawed reaction) to politics of agitation.

 

[syedali73]

PML-N must not delay any project based on political enmity.

To be honest with you, I am not really sure that the federal government is delaying the proposed project based on political enmity. As a result of 18th amendments, a whole lot of matters have gone into the hands of the provincial governments, and if KPK's government was/is truly interested in the proposal, she could always seek assistance from international funding agencies to help realizing those projects.

 

[Norwegian]

I thought it was only me with whom you did not want to get engaged into discussion but I was wrong it seems. Why you ask everybody not to tag you? They are not tagging you because they want to convince you, but because they are replying to your posts. Replying to the posts is the 'right' of each an every poster on this forum. They may elect not to reply, but cannot be forced not to reply because someone does not like it. The key of not getting tagged is with you; stop posting your opinion and posters will stop replying to your posts, it is as simple as that.

Same thing happened with me during first days of joining this forum. I was advised not to quote him or I might face a ban

I had the misfortune of hearing a PTI fanatic supporter call the cancellation of Chinese President's visit a good thing.

I cannot say if it was a good thing or a bad thing. One thing is for sure that we cannot rely on foreign aid (kashkol) for ever. Any idea how much of our yearly GDP goes for paying back on old debts? Its around 60 % of entire GDP!

If so, there is nothing surprising in Tit-for-Tat policy. It is unfortunate, but this is reality. Power politics of confrontation was the style of the '90s and it seems to have come back in force, again. Casualty will be our development and growth just like in the '90s. Jiyalas do not care. It does not matter if they belong to PPP, PTI, or PML-N. They just do not care about Pakistan. They care a great deal about their party and leader, though.

Demanding answers from so-called democratically elected government with heavy mandate is not confrontation. All PMLN had to do was to allow investigation of 4 constituencies that IK was asking since elections 2013. It was no big deal if they lost 4 seats due to rigging, at least we could have known about the real culprits behind rigging and disparities so the system would have been fixed for the next elections in 2018. Yet Noora confronted with these basic democratic demands for 14 months before IK went to the streets.

There are not enough details to form a conclusive opinion. But it seems as though PML-N government is doing what PTI has been doing since the last few months.

Did PTI interfere with PMLN's Nandipur flopped megaproject?

Now of-course you have to malign PTI somehow in everything because of your hatred towards their policy making, but at least keep the bar high by doing sensible criticism. PTI was allowed to form govt in KP so that they can be bullied badly. This was also part of London Plan and I am sure that a high caliber intellectual person like you sir, is aware of these basic things.

Thumbs up!

2013 elections were better than 2008 elections, which were better than 2002 elections. The system should be cleaned, not trashed.

IK is asking for cleansing the system in order to make it rigging-free not trashing it.

In any case, I hardly have enough time to engage in debate anymore, since I had to shut my business down because of electricity issues. Now I am working in corporate. So tell about power generation and everything about it.

Every Pakistani is affected when there are massive blackouts.

In the climate of political agitation, hardly anything can go right. I blame the agitators. One can not neatly and conveniently compartmentalize issues like you are doing. There are no angels in our politics.

The real agitators are PMLN, none else. All they had to do was to agree with PTI's basic demands for opening of only 4 constituencies.

I am not defending PML-N. I want Hydel projects to go through. I am, however, pointing out the fact that when PTI chooses to agitate, it can not expect to be left in peace. So, while PTI policy of pursuing agitation politics puts PML-N in a survival mode, such stuff is only logical. Wrong, but logical in Pakistani context. Have you forgotten what happened during the '90s?

Why would criticising PMLN's bad governance by PTI put them in a 'survival mode'? Don't forget that they got so-called heavy mandate from the people in 2013 elections.

 

[Chak Bamu]

To be honest with you, I am not really sure that the federal government is delaying the proposed project based on political enmity. As a result of 18th amendments, a whole lot of matters have gone into the hands of the provincial governments, and if KPK's government was/is truly interested in the proposal, she could always seek assistance from international funding agencies to help realizing those projects.

Its not that easy. The foreign donors require some sort of guarantee. A case in point is the very low cost 50 MW project on Head Marala, to be executed by a Chinese company for a very low amount of money (less than 5 Billion, I think) 100% financed by China. The Punjab Government was eager to have it, but PPP's federal government refused to provide a Sovereign guarantee. The project was supposed to have been started in 2010. It would have been paying dividends right now. But it never happened.

Similar story was with Nandipur power project. It was also blocked by PPP's federal government. In this case there was perhaps the justification that it was to be based on Natural gas, which Pakistan has very little of, and Punjab has totally none. This has caused a great deal of heartache, financial loss, and bad publicity (Now it awaits a furnace oil purification plant to make it useful).

In both the above cases 18th amendment did nothing for Punjab as far as power generation was concerned.

Another dimension is that no country is willing to invest in Pakistan apart from China. PTI has already done enough favor to itself by playing its part in cancelling Chinese President's visit. From where is KPK government going to bring required investment? Yeah, it may happen if KPK government is determined, but that money will have to be diverted from elsewhere. Not a good choice. It is always a better idea to source funds from investment community rather than spend tax revenue.

I hope you begin to see why I was so broken-hearted over PTI's choices.

 

[Jazzbot]

@Chak Bamu

Sir, I daily start several threads here, mostly political but I hardly tag you, @Aether and other mods in those threads. Me and @Aether were in discussion about power projects in past in several threads, similarly me & you had such discussion in recent past. That is why I tagged you two in this thread, considering the topic relevant to you guys.

 

[Chak Bamu]

@Chak Bamu

Sir, I daily start several threads here, mostly political but I hardly tag you, @Aether and other mods in those threads. Me and @Aether were in discussion about power projects in past in several threads, similarly me & you had such discussion in recent past. That is why I tagged you two in this thread, considering the topic relevant to you guys.

It is relevant alright. But there is a political angle to it. I can discuss the technical side a bit, but there was hardly any information to go on. On the other hand, the political angle was strong, as insinuated by the Editor.

I just try to avoid politics because my opinions are not pleasant for many. I hope you understand.