PM Modi, Pak PM Shehbaz Sharif to meet in Tashkent? Modi may visit Pakistan!

[The Accountant]

Yaar nothing is happening, the underlying pressure on this lanat PM of ours is so great that it would be political suicide

As India becomes ever more communal and divided, normal state to state relations in South Asia become impossible

He will do it under aman ki asha program ...

They visited israel which is more sensitive issue than india ... They care about their own wealth which will multiply through these moves ...

To counter china india asked assurance from US for an obedient Pakistan which was one of the many reasons of bringing SS in place of IK

 

[VCheng]

What Pakistan desires is a respite during which we can reorganize ourselves, improve economy, repair damaged foreign relations, & show the world that we are partners in peace. Once such a position is achieved, Establishment can shift gear, have the PM (whoever he may be) kicked out just like NS was kicked out, blame a 'corrupt' government of colluding with the enemy, & reverse policies for own convenience. We'll get a 'patriotic' & 'nationalistic' Mr. Clean leader, who would be beholden to the Establishment for a shot at the PM slot. If this works out (will not, because it never does), Pakistan would be back in business & raise temperature in Kashmir.

Is Pakistan ready to do what I wrote back in 2011 on PDF?

So what to do next? Much has already been said about the Indo-Pak rivalry and history, and how it affects the present conflict as well, but it is high time for a bold idea that takes it into account, and lays the basis for achieving US goals as well, based on the idea that “friendship is merely mutual blackmail elevated to a higher level”. The US should create and fund an Economic Treaty Organization between Afghanistan, Pakistan and India that will create all the elements of mutual blackmail by tying together long term economic interests of all the parties involved, thus in time elevating it to the higher level of friendship, as already stated above. The return on investment of such a plan is going to be far higher than cleaning up the mess afterwards, and anything less would fail to the detriment of all. After having exhausted all other possibilities, it is high time the Americans did the right thing. Countless millions are counting on it.

 

[Muhammed45]

On one hand you have the peaceniks and the other uber-nationalists. Uber-peaceniks would have you wanting to embrace all humanity - after all we all belong to the same species. Yet we draw artificial lines on this earth. We are one earth, one ecosystem, one species.

View attachment 836071

But leave that asides why does not Asia jopin together and join hands in peace? Iran accepts Israel, Iraq cuddles Turkey, Armenians kiss the Turks, Afghans break the fast with Pakistani's, Indians do puja with Pakistan, Yemeni's enjoy some camel meat with Saudi's and best of all Saudi's and Iranians dance to peace? Think of the united, peace, prosperous Asia? Now what stops all this from happening?

Now when you get the answer to this Q please apply it to Pakistan and India. We are as human as you guys!

Thats not my proposal sir, as a nobody and as a curious forumer, i asked about an internal Subject of Pakistan from informed members. It seems it offended you, let me apologize.

This ideology that we are all equals, with no borders is an stupid liberal value. I don't believe in such thing, we have different beliefs, different cultures, different families, different values but as a matter of fact i believe in Islamic unity under the Banner of holy Quran. That's my ideal scenario which is a bit out of reach because of some reasons. First and foremost the reason is that colonial powers have had their affects on Muslim communities. We live in a single polar world where a bully like USA bullies everyone into submission. In such a world, borders and boundaries along with alliances are defined. Not much Choice we have left.

Think about this fact, the level of incompetence and stupidity of Islamic countries is so high that we cannot finish a gas pipeline without American Permission. And what do you expect? Sauds have been American lackies for decades doing their bidding in the region.

I don't expect you to Jump into the arms of Modi and kiss Indians, i don't even think its possible. I just hear some voices from inside Pakistan looking for setting the issues with Indians, something that could be done almost a decade ago when Kashmir had autonomy.

The best comment that i saw belonged to @Chak Bamu , an insightful thought. That's what I would call the Evolution of indo-pak relations in space of cold war/Hot war, regional rivalry over land disputes and hate and love relationship between the 2 South Asian states.

 

[Chak Bamu]

He will do it under aman ki asha program ...

They visited israel which is more sensitive issue than india ... They care about their own wealth which will multiply through these moves ...

To counter china india asked assurance from US for an obedient Pakistan which was one of the many reasons of bringing SS in place of IK

Wrong.

China was unhappy with the PTI government for ignoring CPEC & not making decisions in time. In my view Chinese have had a distrust of IK & PTI ever since August 2014 when President Xi Jinping's tour had to be canceled. Chinese do not like unstable characters like IK, which is normal for any investor.

This theory of yours may be pleasing to Insafi ears, but has little to do with reality.

Thanks for the detailed reply, it was a good read. I would avoid the PTI vs PMLN points, as those just derail the discussion (although I disagree). Your points on Kargil overall seem legit, and my overall opinion is similar ‘Nani na khasam kiya, bura kiya! Chad dita, aur bura kiya’. Pakistan shouldn’t have gone for it, but if it did it should have been done properly with everyone on board and prepared to deal with all consequences.
I also doubt SS can really take an independent approach given the weak coalition he has, even weaker than PTI - but he will make compromises to keep the govt float. So this probably shows that PA is on board on moving forward with status change in Kashmir for now, and IK may have been the irritant in this part.

Thanks for a very mature reply. I was pessimistic (& hence a bit of terseness in my tone), but you have surprised me with your candor.

Is Pakistan ready to do what I wrote back in 2011 on PDF?

Do note that I called it a pseudo-normalization. Now that Pakistan Army thinks that there is no chance of an invasion from the immediate West, it can reorganize the situation. But make no mistake about it, Kashmir will never go away.

 

[The Accountant]

Wrong.

China was unhappy with the PTI government for ignoring CPEC & not making decisions in time. In my view Chinese have had a distrust of IK & PTI ever since August 2014 when President Xi Jinping's tour had to be canceled. Chinese do not like unstable characters like IK, which is normal for any investor.

This theory of yours may be pleasing to Insafi ears, but has little to do with reality.


Thanks for a very mature reply. I was pessimistic (& hence a bit of terseness in my tone), but you have surprised me with your candor.


Do note that I called it a pseudo-normalization. Now that Pakistan Army thinks that there is no chance of an invasion from the immediate West, it can reorganize the situation. But make no mistake about it, Kashmir will never go away.

Source that china was not pleased with IK and pace of CPEC was slowed other than due to COVID. Since more than 2 years activities outside china halted due to COVID. There were three quarantines required for any chinese to travel outside and inside china which could take almost 2 months for a single visit...

 

[aryobarzan]

Pakistan’s new PM invites Ebrahim Raisi to visit Islamabad​

https://en.isna.ir/news/1401013018397/Pakistan-s-new-PM-invites-Ebrahim-Raisi-to-visit-Islamabad

 

[nahtanbob]

A man kept a monkey as a pet. The naughty monkey found a thin necked jar full of almonds & stuck its hand in to grab a handful. Now his over-stuffed fist was stuck in the jar & would not come out of the jar's neck. Monkey's greed would not allow it to let go of the almonds & it could not get its fist out of the jar either. The man came & saw the monkey, laughed at the situation, tried to encourage the monkey to let go. But the monkey's greed & lack of intelligence kept it from understanding the choice. Finally, the man thumped monkey's head & in panic the monkey let go of the almonds & get its hand out of the jar.

Pre-Kargil was the only time when Pakistan could have achieved an advantageous position. After Kargil, no matter what Pakistan did, we could never even get traction. This is the sad truth. Pakistan's Establishment has always undermined civilian decision-makers to the detriment of the nation & state. NS established track-2 diplomacy, but found himself beset by attack dogs - that was in 2016-2017. India unilaterally revoked IOK's special status in 2019, reneging on its commitment to Kashmiris. Pakistan could do nothing, because the set of choices imposed upon us by our own Establishment had created such a weak position that the Establishment itself could not contemplate a suitable riposte to the development.

Now SS feels empowered to make a move. Poor chap probably realizes that he is just as disposable a civilian as his elder brother Nawaz Sharif, & (even) Imran Khan were. But I suppose a PM (at least one serious about his job) works out of a sense of duty. Do expect him to be sacrificed when needed after being blamed for everything wrong under the sun, including holding talks (which Establishment itself wants now due to an exceedingly untenable position) with India.

Pakistan is a wonderous country. The seasons change in an instant.

PS> I wrote a similar post. See penultimate post above.

Isn't all this a function of the economic gap between India and Pakistan ? I am not sure what the Pakistani establishment (i assume the Pakistani army is part of the establishment) can do about this.

 

[PradoTLC]

According to sources, back channels discussions are underway between Indian and Pakistani officials to formalise a meeting between Indian PM Narendra Modi and Pakistan's newly-appointed Prime Minister Shehbaz Sharif during the SCO summit in Tashkent in July.

PM Modi and Pakistan PM Shehbaz Sharif are expected to attend the SCO summit on July 17 in Tashkent, Uzbekistan. Highly placed sources say if the meeting between two leaders transpires, then PM Modi may visit the Katas Raj Temple in Pakistan

Sources say the Pakistan PM Shehbaz Sharif may then host the Indian prime minister in Islamabad.




Both prime ministers had recently exchanged messages on Twitter after Shehbaz Sharif was appointed PM. Prime Minister Narendra Modi had invited Pakistan PM Shehbaz Sharif's brother ex-prime minister Nawaz Sharif to India during his swearing-in ceremony in 2014.

The meeting between Sharif and PM Modi however may be subject to stability within the military ranks, sources claim with Pakistan's Army chief General Qamar Javed Bajwa's term due to expire in November.

Reports claimed earlier former PM Imran Khan had tried to sack General Bajwa amid the no-confidence drama in Parliament this month.

In 2015, PM Modi had visited Pakistan to meet ex-PM Nawaz Sharif during a surprise stopover in Lahore. However, relations between the two sides nosedived after the 2016 Pathankot terrorist attack and the 2019 Pulwama terror attack.

Both countries had earlier pulled out their high commissioners from each other's countries. India has been operating its mission with a curtailed staff. The possible meeting between PM Modi and Pakistan PM Sharif could be the first step towards the restoration of ties between the two countries, sources say.

PM Modi, Pak PM Shehbaz Sharif to meet in Tashkent?

According to sources, back channels discussions are underway between Indian and Pakistani officials to formalise a meeting between Indian PM Narendra Modi and Pakistan's newly-appointed Prime Minister Shehbaz Sharif during the SCO summit in Tashkent in July. PM Modi and Pakistan PM Shehbaz...

www.wionews.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1516006122175541254

https://twitter.com/x/status/1516065335379730444

@Sudarshan @INS_Vikrant @VkdIndian @Wood

modi.... what has changed ?

has "terrorism" reduced?

 

[WotTen]

It is astounding how some Pakistanis still believe that the road to prosperity lies through India and India alone.

There is a whole entire planet out there besides India. Tap the markets in China, Japan, Middle East, Europe and US. I only mention the rich markets but there is plenty of opportunity in other areas.

The loser beggar mentality insists that Pakistan cannot progress without compromising national security and appeasing India. It keeps begging India for friendship and, every single time without fail, India scornfully rejects Pakistan.

 

[Sayfullah]

Source that china was not pleased with IK and pace of CPEC was slowed other than due to COVID. Since more than 2 years activities outside china halted due to COVID. There were three quarantines required for any chinese to travel outside and inside china which could take almost 2 months for a single visit...

He is correct China was in fact not pleased with imran khan’s pace for cpec.
But the reason is different. Reason is Chinese investing in cpec think about how to make the most money. Imran khan thinks about Pakistan and it’s people. Imran khan doesn’t want useless expensive projects like Lahore metro or useless imported coal using coal power plants in Pakistan which will just hurt us and will do more harm then gain. Investors look to make the most money while imran khan looks to help Pakistan and Pakistanis. Pmln looks to make the most money like Chinese investors so they like pmln. Chinese know with one bribe they can make pmln do whatever and make them get loans at high interest and build roads at 10x prices.
Just look at ml 1 up gradation. Chinese wanted billions more but imran khan was stubborn and wanted low interest loan and it to be billions of dollars cheaper. Imran khan wasn’t gonna bend over with bribes and sell his country. Result was after many negotiations Chinese finally agreed. Chinese were thinking it’s pmln give them high interest loan and build at double the price but imran khan was stubborn because he wanted best for Pakistan.

These people look at cpec progress but fail to look at every individual project and see if it was really worth it. Was it really worth setting up those coal power plants which require Australian or South African coal under cpec and, which produce electricity at the most expensive rate in Pakistan? Was it really worth building useless roads on high interest loans at 2x 3x 4x or even 5x the price? Was it really worth making Lahore orange line a cpec project at the cost it was made?

Imran khan didn’t want useless projects that will do us more harm then good. Imran khan wanted cpec to actually benefit us. Chinese weren’t happy because they couldn’t legally rob us with the help of government. Chinese weren’t happy that their profits were being lowered. Chinese weren’t happy that Pakistan got a pm which puts his people first and not dollars.

This is the real reason why cpec was slowed down and why Chinese prefer pmln or ppp over imran khan.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Isn't all this a function of the economic gap between India and Pakistan ? I am not sure what the Pakistani establishment (i assume the Pakistani army is part of the establishment) can do about this.

Could have not done Kargil, perhaps? The disparity had not yet grown & there was intense pressure that India felt very keenly at that time. Since then the world has stopped caring about Kashmir etc...

Why ask something that has a very obvious answer - one that was mentioned too?

 

[The Accountant]

He is correct China was in fact not pleased with imran khan’s pace for cpec.
But the reason is different. Reason is Chinese investing in cpec think about how to make the most money. Imran khan thinks about Pakistan and it’s people. Imran khan doesn’t want useless expensive projects like Lahore metro or useless imported coal using coal power plants in Pakistan which will just hurt us and will do more harm then gain. Investors look to make the most money while imran khan looks to help Pakistan and Pakistanis. Pmln looks to make the most money like Chinese investors so they like pmln. Chinese know with one bribe they can make pmln do whatever and make them get loans at high interest and build roads at 10x prices.
Just look at ml 1 up gradation. Chinese wanted billions more but imran khan was stubborn and wanted low interest loan and it to be billions of dollars cheaper. Imran khan wasn’t gonna bend over with bribes and sell his country. Result was after many negotiations Chinese finally agreed. Chinese were thinking it’s pmln give them high interest loan and build at double the price but imran khan was stubborn because he wanted best for Pakistan.

These people look at cpec progress but fail to look at every individual project and see if it was really worth it. Was it really worth setting up those coal power plants which require Australian or South African coal under cpec and, which produce electricity at the most expensive rate in Pakistan? Was it really worth building useless roads on high interest loans at 2x 3x 4x or even 5x the price? Was it really worth making Lahore orange line a cpec project at the cost it was made?

Imran khan didn’t want useless projects that will do us more harm then good. Imran khan wanted cpec to actually benefit us. Chinese weren’t happy because they couldn’t legally rob us with the help of government. Chinese weren’t happy that their profits were being lowered. Chinese weren’t happy that Pakistan got a pm which puts his people first and not dollars.

This is the real reason why cpec was slowed down and why Chinese prefer pmln or ppp over imran khan.

Brother i am working with chinese on daily basis. My company has 30% chinese shareholding by a 100% government owned entity.

Fact is china was all lock down in covid and there was no movement allowed. Alot of our planned projects got delayed due to covid.

As per our JVC agreement chinese team has to present 6 months in Pakistan but they are not here since covid broke out ...

 

[Tomcats]

To counter china india asked assurance from US for an obedient Pakistan which was one of the many reasons of bringing SS in place of IK

Pak became 'obedient' while IK was in power, he was the one who tried to kick start talks and oversaw for the first time in years perhaps a silent LOC.

Source that china was not pleased with IK

Here's one instance, when a bomb killed Chinese employees working at the Dasu Dam, the Foreign ministry allegedly tried to cover it up, which pissed off the Chinese incredibly resulting in closure of the project temporarily and an extremely steep payment by Pakistan to the Chinese company and citizens who died, here your source.

Pakistan to pay Dasu attack Chinese victims | The Express Tribune

Move aimed at removing major irritant in bilateral relations

tribune.com.pk

After the government tried to downplay the terrorist attack as an accident caused by gas leakage, China immediately retaliated and cancelled a scheduled meeting of the Joint Cooperation Committee of the CPEC.

The Chinese contractor had also stopped the work on the project and demanded a compensation of $37 million.

The compensation that the contractor had claimed was over 500% more than what a Chinese national’s heirs would have received if killed in a similar attack in their own country, according to government sources.

 

[VCheng]

Do note that I called it a pseudo-normalization. Now that Pakistan Army thinks that there is no chance of an invasion from the immediate West, it can reorganize the situation. But make no mistake about it, Kashmir will never go away.

The only viable solution to Kashmir, if there ever is to be one, is to convert the LoC into a recognized international border.

 

[SuvarnaTeja]

The only viable solution to Kashmir, if there ever is to be one, is to convert the LoC into a recognized international border.

Not acceptable.

Kashmir and Kargil need to be part of Pakistan.

On one hand you have the peaceniks and the other uber-nationalists. Uber-peaceniks would have you wanting to embrace all humanity - after all we all belong to the same species. Yet we draw artificial lines on this earth. We are one earth, one ecosystem, one species.

View attachment 836071

But leave that asides why does not Asia jopin together and join hands in peace? Iran accepts Israel, Iraq cuddles Turkey, Armenians kiss the Turks, Afghans break the fast with Pakistani's, Indians do puja with Pakistan, Yemeni's enjoy some camel meat with Saudi's and best of all Saudi's and Iranians dance to peace? Think of the united, peace, prosperous Asia? Now what stops all this from happening?

Now when you get the answer to this Q please apply it to Pakistan and India. We are as human as you guys!

The problem is with India not Pakistan.

The onus is on India to give up her ego and transfer Kashmir to Pakistan.