What's new

Featured PM Imran refuses to accept Bajwa’s resignation as SAPM

Thanks. Field is law so the ordinances and legislation that are passed, are my bread and butter and their far and wide impact is something i need to know as the citizen of Pakistan and the impact of the ordinance will indeed be far and wide. Such a crucial project yet no agreement is made public, no information is brought out and no legal proceeding can be initiated against them so if they error, we cant hold them accountable and we cant even bring the CPEC authority to court to ask them what have they signed. This is the same when people cry that our precious resources were sold before at pittance causing losses to the country. Those agreements were also not made public and same here and then we have legal immunity to boot.

The generals are masters of such otherwise they wouldnt be this good at playing such a game. They would have long lost and would have been sent back. They are so good at it that one only has to see the complete 180 turn in terms of reaction at this incident and the previous incidents of accountability campaign against non-military personal.

maybe @VCheng has a point. This country is functioning exactly how it was supposed to function.
Fully and entirely agree. On CPEC, I think opaque deals with the Chinese are not really the bigger issue here, this is just how the Chinese operate. The real problem is the changes made to the CPEC authority, during PML tenure the army was fighting to take control of CPEC themselves, this is what we’re seeing now. Legal immunity, draconian powers for the authority, no accountability whatsoever, and army generals heading it.

And people still pull back when I claim that this country isn’t a functioning democracy, it’s still heavily undermined by the usual suspects.
 
.
Fully and entirely agree. On CPEC, I think opaque deals with the Chinese are not really the bigger issue here, this is just how the Chinese operat

The Chinese do operate like that but why are we operating like that? i know we cant say no to China on many fronts but such hidden actions dont help because scrutiny helps see what is short term interest and what is long term impact especially when we see how there is very serious talk about countries in debt trap or corruption ruining very promising projects. In Pakistan where there is so much corruption, legal incompetence and financial incompetence, it is very important that these documents, atleast a good portion of them be made open for public view so that nothing remains hidden and if there is propaganda done against CPEC then it can be answered openly. You hide the documents then people will either be left in doubt or they will raise questions.

The real problem is the changes made to the CPEC authority, during PML tenure the army was fighting to take control of CPEC themselves, this is what we’re seeing now

Thats a very serious problem and i have no idea where a military man whose achievements were in public relations, is going to do in an authority which is entirely economical and has sociological impact. They were fighting since day one and under the guise of, it must be protected from foreign elements and political stagnation, be handed to the army. Firstly this thinking itself is so flawed that rather than try to improve the system and form a more united front, after all one of the major problems with CPEC is its transparency, we immediately say throw it to the army. Secondly with his the project will slowly become part of the military enterprise and will increase their economical hold on the country. We often talk about how shutting down army businesses is no longer a realistic option since such a blow will cripple the economy for decades to come and here, understanding this, we are giving them a project that is meant to develop the economic and industrial and power base of all the regions of Pakistan and its most important ports. Post this, the military economic hold will become tenfold making them the sole economic driver in the country.
Normally the talk is that since they have the biggest gun, they have the greatest influence in a country where rule of law struggles, but post this they wont just have the biggest gun but the biggest bank as well.
Legal immunity, draconian powers for the authority, no accountability whatsoever, and army generals heading it.

It has become a fashion of sorts of both military and government to support legislation which curtail legal powers to take action against them. Recent legislation have always favored such and this can be seen as a corruption of the legislative as well since many legislation that concern the legislative, are themselves placed under legal immunity. Although i say this in jest but i fear it may one day come true, when the CPEC authority will be empowered to create CPEC trial courts where offences against CPEC will be punished summarily similar to how the AACP functioned. The most ironic thing was that when Panama papers were relased, N started a campaign that Panama was an international conspiracy against CPEC and the accountability was being done to slow down the process and end it. I saw banners and i saw analysts. With Bajwa's wealth revelation, the same is being stated that it is an international conspiracy to harm CPEC. Word to word, i have seen analysts say the same thing and all i await are the banners that will hold the same. All in all it makes for a grim reading.
And people still pull back when I claim that this country isn’t a functioning democracy, it’s still heavily undermined by the usual suspects.

It isnt a functioning democracy and that is a fact. It is a democracy but it struggles to function properly and i would add to the usual suspects along with the actions of the political parties in securing their holds and powers have allowed for system to be formed which struggles to function in a proper manner. Forget the people, many have no clue how things have become. They speak of Land reforms to break the feudal back without knowing that Land Reforms are unislamic in Pakistan and have been declared so. They speak of Referendums when they fail to realize that the power is not with the Supreme Court but with the Prime Minister and the Parliament to demand as such and they speak of changing systems when they fail to realize the the most sacred of documents in the country have enshrined the current system as such.


In the end the people are themselves the mirror of the rulers. All institutions are from the people and here we witness how the people are. If anybody has an iota of reference or power, they are not afraid to its extreme, Nobody wants to be held accountable for their actions and they give excuses which they believe justify their actions. Nobody wants to be scrutinized and all blame the other and when the other is not found then it is created as we see with international conspiracies. An opportunity to be corrupt is not ignored. In such an environment the leaders and the military all are products from this populace. The most enlightening example would be that people criticize class differences yet pounce on the opportunity to jump classes and when they reach that class, their actions and words cannot be recognized anymore.
 
. . . .
The Chinese do operate like that but why are we operating like that? i know we cant say no to China on many fronts but such hidden actions dont help because scrutiny helps see what is short term interest and what is long term impact especially when we see how there is very serious talk about countries in debt trap or corruption ruining very promising projects. In Pakistan where there is so much corruption, legal incompetence and financial incompetence, it is very important that these documents, atleast a good portion of them be made open for public view so that nothing remains hidden and if there is propaganda done against CPEC then it can be answered openly. You hide the documents then people will either be left in doubt or they will raise questions.

I agree, ideally they'd be more transparent. But I think the reason they do this with their investments, not just in Pakistan but all BRI projects, is partly to avoid exposure of their own companies and state-institutions to foreign scrutiny and public record. It's not really to do with us, a good example of this is that they of course shared the details with the government of Pakistan and all stakeholders here, but they deeply objected to sharing any info with Pakistan's multilateral western lenders of last resort like the IMF. They don't want prying eyes from other nations on their affairs, nor do they want the financial records of their BRI companies exposed to scrutiny by third-party foreign powers. You see CPEC for us is strategically and economically important, it's huge. Eqaully for the Chinese, this is a mega-project in which they've invested lots of money and political capital, it is the flagship project of Xi Jinping and also China's power projection internationally, it's understandable imo that they'd be protective.

Also, I believe it might be that they create bespoke deals for everyone too, financing terms and contractual agreements based on the project and nation. Meaning for example, the financing of a dam in Pakistan might have different conditions to Gwadar port, the financing terms of Hambantota port in Sri Lanka which was part financed by EXIM China might be very different to Gwadar's terms and arrangements, despite both being BRI port projects. Chinese probably want more freedom to tailor the project financing without comparisons between projects, with scrutiny also comes politicization, I think their philosophy is different the western model of transparency. This is just my own personal assessment, truth might be different.

And I fully agree with the rest of your post. :tup:
 
. .
Not "maybe". I know I am right on the basis of all the evidence to support my contention. :D

Well, gonna have to give it a shot to make sure it doesnt function like it was supposed to function and actually functions like it was meant to function. I have a few youth years to give to this. :-)
 
.
Well, gonna have to give it a shot to make sure it doesnt function like it was supposed to function and actually functions like it was meant to function. I have a few youth years to give to this. :-)

It is not just your youth, but that of countless millions of youth that keeps this caravan of hope rolling on its journey to nowhere. Only those who are able to develop a wider vantage are able to see what is going on in reality, except the guy going around in circles in the desert because his right stride is just a little bit longer than his left, of course. But please let not an old guy like me discourage you at all. Please do carry on as you wish.
 
Last edited:
.
I find it quite funny that many expat Pakistanis on PDF and elsewhere have an issue with a retired general's children going abroad. Is that not their personal matter? I would love to live, at least for a while, near the Mediterranean because I'm a historyboo but does that mean my loyalties to my country would drop?
 
.
It is not just your youth, but that of countless millions of youth that keeps this caravan of hope rolling on its journey to nowhere. Only those who are able to develop a wider vantage are able to see what is going on in reality, except the guy going around in circles in the desert because his right stride is just a little bit longer than his left, of course. But please let not an old guy like me discourage you at all. Please do carry on as you wish.

Its been a while since i have seen the old Vcheng. Your name was different back then, if i remember correctly. Well we are living in this country so that should be something that one should try. Pathan, so wont get discouraged no matter what. :D
 
.
Its been a while since i have seen the old Vcheng. Your name was different back then, if i remember correctly. Well we are living in this country so that should be something that one should try. Pathan, so wont get discouraged no matter what. :D

That old name was a tribute to my old friend who, along with his son, was gunned down in cold blood due to his religious beliefs. To remain relevant on topic, if the good General's children choose to leave (good for them, BTW), it is only a matter of time before yours do so too, given an opportunity. Those who are left behind are the "true" patriots, but only until that chance opens up.
 
.
That old name was a tribute to my old friend who, along with his son, was gunned down in cold blood due to his religious beliefs.

I am sorry to hear that. I really am.

To remain relevant on topic, if the good General's children choose to leave (good for them, BTW), it is only a matter of time before yours do so too, given an opportunity.

I am more interested in him than his children and all those that are in positions where they shouldnt be left and right. Each department. If this was GOT, they would be the strongest house by far.

Well for that i need to have kids and money. Dono ka imkan daur say nazar nahi araha :D :D
Those who are left behind are the "true" patriots, but only until that chance opens up.

There is no true patriot. If all of us that are here would be the legendary patriots, this place would be a heaven. Its a myth. Who defines patriotism? love for the country, the flag, the rule of law, the parliament, the army, the people, the strategic aspiration, the protector of human rights who is a patriot?. where does it begin and where does it end? who is a patriot and who is not a patriot and where is the grey line.
Survived the temptation once, lets see if i should survive it again, should an opportunity present itself.

I think we are slowly going offtopic. :D
 
. .
There is no true patriot. If all of us that are here would be the legendary patriots, this place would be a heaven. Its a myth. Who defines patriotism? love for the country, the flag, the rule of law, the parliament, the army, the people, the strategic aspiration, the protector of human rights who is a patriot?. where does it begin and where does it end? who is a patriot and who is not a patriot and where is the grey line.
Survived the temptation once, lets see if i should survive it again, should an opportunity present itself.

I think we are slowly going offtopic. :D


Good questions, but to remain directly on topic in this thread, I am sure that most here would agree that not only PMIK, and General Bajwa are good examples of what a patriot looks like in Pakistan, but also the tendering and non-acceptance of the resignation is another example of patriotic behavior worthy of emulation.
 
.
Back
Top Bottom