'PM gives go-ahead for ground operation in Shawal Valley'

[Indus Falcon]

its called democracy and if i am not wrong Pakistan is one.

A democracy is one, where free and fair elections are held. When was the last time free and fair General Elections were held?

No matter how empty and useless we deem this parliament and these elected politicians are, but none the less this is what we have for the time being. So military needs financial and more importantly political support for this operation, so I think this is the right step.

What is more important is what they stated about Sindh, the message was clear we are still focused on you.

The Sindh Operation would had started a year ago (at least), had it not been for our spineless Govt and Parliament!

 

[Cyberian]

North waziristan is already in operation and shawal valley is part of it ... than Why PM give separate approval for shawal valley

Because the highly concentrated Operation Zarb-e-Azb costs Pakistan Rs. 22 billion a month and it has its limits.

 

[Viper0011.]

A democracy is one, where free and fair elections are held. When was the last time free and fair General Elections were held?

The Sindh Operation would had started a year ago (at least), had it not been for our spineless Govt and Parliament!

What are free and fair elections???? Where IK wins irrespective of having real leaders and agenda and experience of execution in his entire career????
You guys went to courts, put the country at high risk of another coupe, marshal law and political destabilization and billions lost. You still don't get it and won't change the stance after having been kicked out of the SC, the Public, the Parliament?

It seems like the "free and fair" elections will also be super corrupt as IK expects somehow to "win" without having a real agenda, experience and public on his end to a degree where he can win a majority or stand on himself as a much bigger thing than where he's at now.

The Ops are planned by the Army, there is a LOT that goes into it than what you are looking at. The Pak Army has learned a lot from the US through experience, cooperation and training. It first conducts huge intelligence gathering operations, comes up with a feasibility report, then prioritization happens on which sector has the highest risk to Pakistan, and then approval from the PM.

Blaming the PM is like blaming a doctor for delayed treatment when the actual issue was the ambulance running late.

Somebody needs to tell the PM, his go ahead doesn't mean two cents!

actually its the opposite. If he doesn't write a check.....the soldiers don't get paid and the generals don't get to keep their BMW 5 and 7 series . And I don't know if you somehow skipped the sentence that the Army Chief personally met with the PM to brief him on this operation, and then the funding was approved. If the Army chief was one of the previous ones, and had such a heavy check book, trust me, he wouldn't need to meet with the PM. Gen. Raheel is an awesome guy and wants a democratic system to run. He wants Pakistan to grow and unlike the previous macho men generals, he knows the Civilian leadership is the only one to do that. Welcome to democracy and it is now in its full form and swing.

Not sure if people on here have noticed. But the Western media in years has left Pakistan alone for the majority of the degree, due to the political and economic stability in effect now. Thanks to the current government and their efforts to start a ton of economic expansion work and multi-billion projects which have shown the world business opportunities in Pakistan, growth and modernization. These opportunities have resulted in companies like GE, Dell, etc, seeing Pakistan as a future customer and partner than the traditional line in the media "Nuke armed country with huge Taliban influence"..... the difference between the former and the later sentence is huge!! Good going Pakistan's political system. Keep up the good work and clean up your country from these terrorists and agents from across the border.

 

[Secur]

Like I said you are free to believe what you want. But keep in mind, those who have skeletons in their closets are in no bargaining position!

Hypothetically speaking IF the Army has skeletons in it's closet, what is the PM going to do? Take on the wrath of the whole Army?

How it is supposed to work, and how it works are two different things! Seems like you haven't figure it out by now!!!

No ofcourse not, no one messes with the local gangster. The war that the army is fighting is the result of its own blunders and short sighted policies in the eighties, so don't portray them as some angels. These Chechen/Uzbek/Tajik/Arabs commonly found and regularly targeted now didn't arrive in this country overnight after the start of operation zarb-e-azb and neither this Taliban ideology is something recent or even foreign. The dictator Zia ul Haq got in bed with mullahs and put Pakistani the path of radicalization, sectarianism and extremism for almost three decades, now the whole nation is paying for that insanity. So please spare us the righteousness of this army, in many ways they are about as corrupt as politicians. I will reserve the stories of lavish lives of the army top brass and defense/askaris for a later time, get off the high horse and false angelicness. You speak as everything is fault of those bloody civvies and everything the army has been doing has been beneficial for country, nothing could be farther than truth.

 

[Al Bhatti]

Somebody needs to tell the PM, his go ahead doesn't mean two cents!

He has to show and wants to show some self prestige which all the politicians lack even though it is artificial.

 

[Indus Falcon]

What are free and fair elections???? Where IK wins irrespective of having real leaders and agenda and experience of execution in his entire career????
You guys went to courts, put the country at high risk of another coupe, marshal law and political destabilization and billions lost. You still don't get it and won't change the stance after having been kicked out of the SC, the Public, the Parliament?




actually its the opposite. If he doesn't write a check.....the soldiers don't get paid and the generals don't get to keep their BMW 5 and 7 series .

Please quote me where I have mentioned or supported Imran Khan? As a matter of policy I don't support any politician. Have seen them up close and personal.

When did I go to court? Please mention my case numbers.

You feeling ok?

This is a typical example of how free and fair elections, happen in Pakistan, but you are free to believe what you want:

Secondly, if you honestly think any civilian government has the guts to stand up to the COAS/ PA, then you and the likes of you seriously need a reality check!

 

[salarsikander]

Please quote me where I have mentioned or supported Imran Khan? As a matter of policy I don;t support any politician. Have seen them up close and personal.

When did I go to court? Please mention my case numbers.

You feeling ok?

This is a typical example of how free and fair elections, happen in Pakistan, but you are free to believe what you want:

Secondly, if you honestly think any civilian government has the guts to stand up to the COAS/ PA, then you and the likes of you seriously need a reality check!

Hi,
sir it was always a pleasure to read your thoughts on nay subject you make.
As far as above post is concerned. A PAkistani calling himself proud American teaches us how to run our country using American democracy style. while ignoring the local dynamics.

 

[Indus Falcon]

No ofcourse not, no one messes with the local gangster. The war that the army is fighting is the result of its own blunders and short sighted policies in the eighties, so don't portray them as some angels. These Chechen/Uzbek/Tajik/Arabs commonly found and regularly targeted now didn't arrive in this country overnight after the start of operation zarb-e-azb and neither this Taliban ideology is something recent or even foreign. The dictator Zia ul Haq got in bed with mullahs and put Pakistani the path of radicalization, sectarianism and extremism for almost three decades, now the whole nation is paying for that insanity. So please spare us the righteousness of this army, in many ways they are about as corrupt as politicians. I will reserve the stories of lavish lives of the army top brass and defense/askaris for a later time, get off the high horse and false angelicness. You speak as everything is fault of those bloody civvies and everything the army has been doing has been beneficial for country, nothing could be farther than truth.

The Army top brass are definitely not angels, but they are no way more corrupt then the politicians. To squarely put the blame of Pakistan's woes on the shoulders of the Army is not only a very naive point of view, but is nothing short of blind bias and hatred, nothing else.

If one were to actually get access to which Pakistanis, hold how much in Swiss banks, the biggest names and amounts wouldn't be the Army, it would be your precious civies!
Expectations too high for Pakistan-Swiss talks - SWI swissinfo.ch

Was Bhutto an Army officer? You conveniently remember Gen Zia, but forget how Bhutto manipulated the Mullas and at their behest had the Ahmedi community declared non-muslim. Or Naserullah Babar's creation & support of the Taliban during PPP tenure, as PPP Interior minister?

"Babar’s role in propping up and supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan was also pivotal. He made no bones about the fact that he was the father of the Taliban and commanded respect within the Taliban leadership. "
‘Taliban architect’ Naseerullah Babar passes away - The Express Tribune

I wouldn't call it selective amnesia. I would call it, bias and naivety. Now you can get back on your high horse, and see if anyone cares about what you say!

 

[Secur]

The Army top brass are definitely not angels, but they are no way more corrupt then the politicians. To squarely put the blame of Pakistan's woes on the shoulders of the Army is not only a very naive point of view, but is nothing short of blind bias and hatred, nothing else.

If one were to actually get access to which Pakistanis, hold how much in Swiss banks, the biggest names and amounts wouldn't be the Army, it would be your precious civies!
Expectations too high for Pakistan-Swiss talks - SWI swissinfo.ch

Was Bhutto an Army officer? You conveniently remember Gen Zia, but forget how Bhutto manipulated the Mullas and at their behest had the Ahmedi community declared non-muslim. Or Naserullah Babar's creation & support of the Taliban during PPP tenure, as PPP Interior minister?

"Babar’s role in propping up and supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan was also pivotal. He made no bones about the fact that he was the father of the Taliban and commanded respect within the Taliban leadership. "
‘Taliban architect’ Naseerullah Babar passes away - The Express Tribune

I wouldn't call it selective amnesia. I would call it, bias and naivety. Now you can get back on your high horse, and see if anyone cares as to what you say!

I didn't say more corrupt, I said about as corrupt and the fact that their corruption is silent and not commonly known to people. The other fact that their known corruption isn't considered a problem or discussed by the masses tells a great deal about Pakistanis cult worship of the army. Its rightly said that Pakistan army has a country and not the other way around. The blame of all woes and problems of the country isn't being "squarely" put on the military, about time you start reading posts in the right context, its being put on people who are slightly more responsible for it having ruled the country for a greater period of time since its independence. Its being put on people who aren't commonly held responsible for it. No, the civvies aren't angels and they aren't precious to me- I know well the true nature and faces of politicians, au contra-ire most of them act almost like the Satan himself most of the time, however they aren't responsible for everything wrong with Pakistan. Army must take credit for some and sadly the biggest blunders! Its not blind hatred, its setting the records straight.

No, Bhutto wasn't an army officer, however military forces were equally as responsible for the separation of East Pakistan- a lesson Pakistanis skip when they learn about the "udhar tum/idhar hum" slogan. Perhaps accusing me of bias, you could have started by sharing the complete name of Naseerullah Babur. Remind me what is it? Where did the true allegiances of the man lie? The creation of Taliban was carried out on orders of the top brass of military who for the second time in the country's history and after witnessing the actions of Afghan Mujaheddin (infighting, massacres, power struggles) and the failure of Peshawar agreement (on holy book to stop fighting among themselves) made a blunder again. The civilian leadership of Bhutto Jr, as corrupt and short sighted as it was, didn't have the "wisdom" and "supposedly long term agenda" to create another Frankenstein! That was Rawalpindi and not Islamabad wishing to keep control of Afghanistan, now that the Mujaheddin had served their purposes.

Bias and naivety is when people put all blame on civilians while giving a carte blanche to army which is exactly what you were trying to do in your post. Forgetting that it was army which started this policy of importing an extremist version of religion, radicalizing the masses and creating these barbarians. Rationals care, the people with false sense of security and content with the delusions they are in. Oh well!

 

[Hell hound]

can anyone tell us how much area uptill now has been cleared.

 

[That Guy]

The military didn't step back. The military told him these exact words "If you want to fight their war, you are free to go and fight it." There were ZERO rumors that the Army wanted to go in.

The only reason NS went to the parliament was to save face in front of the Saudis.

There is no mud slinging. You are twisting facts to suit your agenda!



Civilian institutions are not any stronger than they were before NS came to power. Corrupt politicians from one party replaced corrupt politicians from another party. Nothing changed.

You can openly be a PML-N supporter, we won't lynch you. Don't worry!




Your Analysis of the Sindh operation, and negating the role of the Army, is as far from the truth as humanly possible!!

But like I said, you are free to believe whatever you want, just don't expect people to buy it!!!

The thing is, you're speculating based on nothing. You have no evidence that the army forced the issue.

Civilian institutions have gotten stronger. They're no longer the weak and unstable organizations that used to exist. It's actually thanks to the army that they've gotten stronger, as the army continues to keep away from politics.

Also, I don't support that fat buffoon. Why is it that when ever I say something that favors the gov, I'm automatically labeled a noon-league supporter? Instead of throwing around needless accusations, address my points instead.

Finally, I've told you before, this has nothing to do with my belief in the system, or how it works. This is reality.

can anyone tell us how much area uptill now has been cleared.

I believe shawal valley is the last stronghold in the country.

 

[Indus Falcon]

The thing is, you're speculating based on nothing. You have no evidence that the army forced the issue.

Civilian institutions have gotten stronger. They're no longer the weak and unstable organizations that used to exist. It's actually thanks to the army that they've gotten stronger, as the army continues to keep away from politics.

Also, I don't support that fat buffoon. Why is it that when ever I say something that favors the gov, I'm automatically labeled a noon-league supporter? Instead of throwing around needless accusations, address my points instead.

Finally, I've told you before, this has nothing to do with my belief in the system, or how it works. This is reality.

No I'm not speculating, I'm talking from experience, as well as info from current serving batch mates. Unlike you I do NOT rely on the media for my "sources."

As to the rest of rants - keep feeding your ego!

 

[Secur]

I believe shawal valley is the last stronghold in the country.

That might be the last terrorist held ground, yes. The reality on the ground is that the centers for training and recruitment, the unchecked thousands of seminaries are still there, waging a silent war against the state of Pakistan are still up and running. That is where, we should aim at next or see all of this go to waste.

 

[That Guy]

No I'm not speculating, I'm talking from experience, as well as info from current serving batch mates. Unlike you I do NOT rely on the media for my "sources."

As to the rest of rants - keep feeding your ego!

I've asked you multiple times not to muddling. No matter what your opinion, never resort to insulting the other person, but it seems that's all you can do, since you have no proof to back you claims.

First hand experience? Give me a Break.

 

[Icarus]

@Icarus @Irfan Baloch

How many more areas need to be taken control of before the war is officially over and we move to "sweeping" the remnants?

Its a very fluid war, small pockets remain but the problem is that it is like squeezing a balloon, squeeze from the bottom and all the air escapes to the top and if you squeeze from the top, the air moves to the bottom. Its a game of cat and mouse but Tirah, Shawal and parts of Orakzai are among the last small holdings where militants still hold ground out of which Tirah is now under complete govt control.