Playing It Big Or A Proxy?: Bangladesh’s Growing Closeness To China – Analysis

[Razia Sultana]

@Joe Shearer @Bilal9
Read your posts at #59 and #60. First of all, intelligentsia does not belong to a particular social class and its regrettable that Modi is targeted for belonging to and coming from a lower middle middle class family. Such criticism actually reflects the mindset of the critic. I am not a fan of Modi and rather a critic of him but I would never criticize him for belonging to a particular religion, caste, creed or social class. I would like to know what religious discrimination Modi has espoused.

As regards to degradation of intelligentsia in WB it was started by the rigid left leaning intellectuals and soon hijacked by the people on the other side of the coin. We still see the intelligentsia taking clear political sides rather than adhering to the principles and values. Its unfortunate now and its unfortunate then. Earlier we had Shahbano, Salman Rushdie, Taslima Nasreen now we have people doing ghar wapasi, banning beef and talking about uniform civil code in a pluralist society. These things dont bother me much but when people start talking about abrogation of the term "socialism & secularism" from the preamble of our constitution then its something to be worried about. But I have not come across anyone in favour of this other than rants on social media.

Why pin point hindu bengalis in the US as anti muslim when the world seems to be Islamophobic. Donald Trump and his followers are not Indians or Bengalis. The problem with us muslims is that we don't seem to be looking within and those who do look within don't speak up. The intellectual tradition is to debate and accept the difference of opinions. We may not like BJP to come to power in WB or any other state but heavens wont fall if they do manage to form the govt.. We have them in Assam J&K and at the center. There is no fundamental or structural changes in our polity. Lets accept that in democracy my opinion, howsoever correct that may be, will not always be accepted.

 

[asad71]

Meanwhile disturbing reports are narrated by tourists returning from Thimpu. To counter PLA's build-up in Tibet, India is strengthening its IMTRAT and BRO in Bhutan. Also a pressure is being applied on the Parliament to scrap monarchy and amalgamate with India - a la Sikkim.

 

[Razia Sultana]

Meanwhile disturbing reports are narrated by tourists returning from Thimpu. To counter PLA's build-up in Tibet, India is strengthening its IMTRAT and BRO in Bhutan. Also a pressure is being applied on the Parliament to scrap monarchy and amalgamate with India - a la Sikkim.

This is rubbish. Bhutan is an independent country and we respect them. This is just a propaganda.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer @Bilal9
Read your posts at #59 and #60. First of all, intelligentsia does not belong to a particular social class and its regrettable that Modi is targeted for belonging to and coming from a lower middle middle class family. Such criticism actually reflects the mindset of the critic. I am not a fan of Modi and rather a critic of him but I would never criticize him for belonging to a particular religion, caste, creed or social class. I would like to know what religious discrimination Modi has espoused.

1. Intelligentsia certainly doesn't come from a particular social class.
2. Modi was not targeted for coming from a particular social class. Nobody mentioned his coming from a lower middle class family. Show me in either post, #59 or #60, where this is said.
3. The rabid Hindutva supporters were. There is still a paper-thin difference between the two, especially when they are not being described as the same.
4. He is to be criticised not for belonging to a religion, or a caste, or a creed, or a social class, but for imposing the values of a particular religion, debasing castes of a particular grouping, and exploiting the brutish and savage, unformed boorish lack of cultivated taste of a group emerging from a particular background.
5. @Bilal9 did not say it, but I will, and it is my statement alone, not his: these supporters are the vast mass of village- and small-town-dwellers coming into the cities, carrying along a baggage of superstitious belief, gross prejudices and total unfamiliarity and disregard for the rule of law, born out of their experience of the course of legal process having been captured by the upper castes and subverted almost totally.

As regards to degradation of intelligentsia in WB it was started by the rigid left leaning intellectuals and soon hijacked by the people on the other side of the coin. We still see the intelligentsia taking clear political sides rather than adhering to the principles and values. Its unfortunate now and its unfortunate then. Earlier we had Shahbano, Salman Rushdie, Taslima Nasreen now we have people doing ghar wapasi, banning beef and talking about uniform civil code in a pluralist society. These things dont bother me much but when people start talking about abrogation of the term "socialism & secularism" from the preamble of our constitution then its something to be worried about. But I have not come across anyone in favour of this other than rants on social media.

Degradation has taken place, and one visible effect is the wearing thin of the secular layer in the thinking of people. This was certainly not a characteristic of the rigid, left-leaning intellectuals; at least they had the virtue of leaning to the other side.

Your comment therefore is utterly irrelevant. Why you drag in the left when we are appalled at the loss of secular values is not at all clear.

Why pin point hindu bengalis in the US as anti muslim when the world seems to be Islamophobic.

Because our immediate context, as between the two Bengals, is the drifting away of the Hindu Bengali from the tolerance that he and she practised. The rest of the world is not a factor in this slow alienation.

Donald Trump and his followers are not Indians or Bengalis. The problem with us muslims is that we don't seem to be looking within and those who do look within don't speak up. The intellectual tradition is to debate and accept the difference of opinions. We may not like BJP to come to power in WB or any other state but heavens wont fall if they do manage to form the govt.. We have them in Assam J&K and at the center. There is no fundamental or structural changes in our polity. Lets accept that in democracy my opinion, howsoever correct that may be, will not always be accepted.

This is such a beautiful Uncle Tom statement, the kind of statement that a perfect Muslim as defined by a Hindu would make, that I cannot help applauding the artistic perfection of the statement. After reading it, I am entirely sceptical about several identity indications that have been provided, and would rather deal with your statements as a neutral person of a neutral gender might have made.

Coming to your sentence of conclusion, the point is not about my opinion or your opinion; the point is how to avoid a majority from imposing its desires by brute force.

Thank you for your intervention. It is so redolent of the innermost thoughts and wishes of a Hindu hegemon that it really summarises that position in the fewest possible words.

 

[asad71]

This is rubbish. Bhutan is an independent country and we respect them. This is just a propaganda.

I hope it turns out to be rubbish. But be assured this is not propaganda. We have the case of Sikkim to guide us. In Bhutan, the last king Jigme Jigey Wangchuk had irked Indian establishment by exchanging diplomats with BD in the sojourn provided by Moraji Desai. He also took other steps to assert Bhutan's sovereignty. Eventually he had to step aside in favor of the current boy king.

 

[Spring Onion]

Business...
Yes it is our business.
We have every right to keep an eye on whats happening in our neighborhood and expand our regional influence. If not anything, India-BD share the fifth largest border in the world which also happens to be an open border.

.

So it gives you the right to bully Bangladesh?

BTW if Maldives can move away from Indian influence so can BD one day with her large number or educated youth provided they come out of Hassina's influence

 

[Razia Sultana]

Modi was not targeted for coming from a particular social class. Nobody mentioned his coming from a lower middle class family. Show me in either post, #59 or #60, where this is said.

He is to be criticised not for belonging to a religion, or a caste, or a creed, or a social class, but for imposing the values of a particular religion, debasing castes of a particular grouping, and exploiting the brutish and savage, unformed boorish lack of cultivated taste of a group emerging from a particular background.

@Bilal9 did not say it, but I will, and it is my statement alone, not his: these supporters are the vast mass of village- and small-town-dwellers coming into the cities, carrying along a baggage of superstitious belief, gross prejudices and total unfamiliarity and disregard for the rule of law, born out of their experience of the course of legal process having been captured by the upper castes and subverted almost totally.

This is quoted from #59.
"..... by a large hate-mongering Hindutva-brainwashed majority ascending from the lower middle-classes in your country.

Such an underclass person is now your Prime Minister who officially espouses religious discrimination which is banned under the UN human rights charter."

The supporters of BJP today were once upon a time supporters of congress..... they too were illiterate poors with superstitious beliefs. I come from a traditional secular congress family and I have witnessed the degeneration and radicalization of both hindu and muslim communities in the last 3 decades. I am actually appalled at the way our society is getting irrational and radicalized but those who understand the things are, instead of addressing the real cause, attacking at the outcome i.e. growth of BJP. As you expressed your anguish and relief that Hindutvavadis did not win in WB, I wont be surprized if they do an Assam in WB next time. And it would be wrong to blame the "stupid, illiterate, lower class" voters.

 

[Levina]

So it gives you the right to bully Bangladesh?

BTW if Maldives can move away from Indian influence so can BD one day with her large number or educated youth provided they come out of Hassina's influence

Lolz
Bully?
I don't see any problem here. India bags a power plant project in BD,India-China and BD are getting to ready to welcome BCIM economic corridor etc etc.
I can't blame you for over assuming things since you live thousands of miles away.

Posting random images does not prove anything ... Who conducted this survey and when?

Try this

http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/14/chapter-4-how-asians-view-each-other/

 

[Razia Sultana]

Degradation has taken place, and one visible effect is the wearing thin of the secular layer in the thinking of people. This was certainly not a characteristic of the rigid, left-leaning intellectuals; at least they had the virtue of leaning to the other side.

Your comment therefore is utterly irrelevant. Why you drag in the left when we are appalled at the loss of secular values is not at all clear.

I agree that degradation has taken place and the responsibility for this rests with Congress for India and Left for WB. Do you realize why left lost WB because they lost muslim votes. I would any day prefer old socialist intelligentsia over right wingers but would still blame them for this. I perhaps dragged them because we talked about WB. I am anytime more comfortable with them than the right wing radicals, yet blame them for not taking a principled stand at least on the matters of secularism. You will never find me debating with Bhakts because its impossible to debate with them. This gives many a wrong impression.

Because our immediate context, as between the two Bengals, is the drifting away of the Hindu Bengali from the tolerance that he and she practised. The rest of the world is not a factor in this slow alienation.

I will now sound like a Bhakt but its wrong to compare a secular nation with a non secular nation. Muslim population has grown in west Bengal and hindu population has declined in east Bengal. If I consider Bengalis as one culture then I am sorry to say Bengalis can not be called secular because 2/3rd bengalis don't practice it. BD may be compared with Nepal in their religious policy.

Also this drifting and alienation is not just among bengali hindus but all of India and not just among hindus but also among other religions.

This is such a beautiful Uncle Tom statement, the kind of statement that a perfect Muslim as defined by a Hindu would make, that I cannot help applauding the artistic perfection of the statement. After reading it, I am entirely sceptical about several identity indications that have been provided, and would rather deal with your statements as a neutral person of a neutral gender might have made.

Coming to your sentence of conclusion, the point is not about my opinion or your opinion; the point is how to avoid a majority from imposing its desires by brute force.

Thank you for your intervention. It is so redolent of the innermost thoughts and wishes of a Hindu hegemon that it really summarises that position in the fewest possible words.

You may make fun of it but you also know very well within yourself whats the truth. I am sorry to say but you too seem like a person who makes an opinion about someone based on his/her gender, caste, religion and so called social class. Had this been not the case you wont make the comment of doubts and then talk of neutrality. If you were so strong about your convictions you would not have mentioned them at all and dealt with it. In the virtual world what I write matters and not my identity.

When we talk of democracy, we mean the will of the majority so why be afraid of the majority as long as they abide by the fundamentals of humanity and civility as enshrined in our constitution. What worries me is the hooliganism by those in power. I saw that in 2011 when TMC came to power in WB and in 2012 when SP govt came to power in UP and I also saw that since the new govt came to power at the center. We can not wish to fight Radical Hindutva forces by alienating them.

And I am really really disappointed with you for having to comment on my identity. I neither know nor seek to know your religion, caste, gender or even nationality. I would have been at peace if you had just abused me or called me a false flagger or a Bhakt. For your info my name is not Razia Sultana and the profile pic is not mine.

 

[BanglaBhoot]

Lolz
Bully?
I don't see any problem here. India bags a power plant project in BD,India-China and BD are getting to ready to welcome BCIM economic corridor etc etc.
I can't blame you for over assuming things since you live thousands of miles away.



Try this

http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/14/chapter-4-how-asians-view-each-other/

That is a two year old survey and these really don't mean much ..

 

[bluesky]

This is rubbish. Bhutan is an independent country and we respect them. This is just a propaganda.

Yes, it is. Bhutan has established diplomatic relations with 17 out of the existing 53 countries, and became associated with 12 out of 20 organizations of the United Nations family. BD is one of the 17 countries that Bhutan maintain diplomatic relationship with. BD President is now making a State visit to Bhutan

 

[Joe Shearer]

I agree that degradation has taken place and the responsibility for this rests with Congress for India and Left for WB. Do you realize why left lost WB because they lost muslim votes. I would any day prefer old socialist intelligentsia over right wingers but would still blame them for this. I perhaps dragged them because we talked about WB. I am anytime more comfortable with them than the right wing radicals, yet blame them for not taking a principled stand at least on the matters of secularism. You will never find me debating with Bhakts because its impossible to debate with them. This gives many a wrong impression.


I will now sound like a Bhakt but its wrong to compare a secular nation with a non secular nation. Muslim population has grown in west Bengal and hindu population has declined in east Bengal. If I consider Bengalis as one culture then I am sorry to say Bengalis can not be called secular because 2/3rd bengalis don't practice it. BD may be compared with Nepal in their religious policy.

Also this drifting and alienation is not just among bengali hindus but all of India and not just among hindus but also among other religions.



You may make fun of it but you also know very well within yourself whats the truth. I am sorry to say but you too seem like a person who makes an opinion about someone based on his/her gender, caste, religion and so called social class. Had this been not the case you wont make the comment of doubts and then talk of neutrality. If you were so strong about your convictions you would not have mentioned them at all and dealt with it. In the virtual world what I write matters and not my identity.

When we talk of democracy, we mean the will of the majority so why be afraid of the majority as long as they abide by the fundamentals of humanity and civility as enshrined in our constitution. What worries me is the hooliganism by those in power. I saw that in 2011 when TMC came to power in WB and in 2012 when SP govt came to power in UP and I also saw that since the new govt came to power at the center. We can not wish to fight Radical Hindutva forces by alienating them.

And I am really really disappointed with you for having to comment on my identity. I neither know nor seek to know your religion, caste, gender or even nationality. I would have been at peace if you had just abused me or called me a false flagger or a Bhakt. For your info my name is not Razia Sultana and the profile pic is not mine.

It will suffice if you respond to my substantive points. For your information, my name is not Joe Shearer and the profile picture does not show me; so what?

 

[Levina]

That is a two year old survey and these really don't mean much ..

Lolz
Excuses galore.

 

[Bilal9]

1. Intelligentsia certainly doesn't come from a particular social class.
2. Modi was not targeted for coming from a particular social class. Nobody mentioned his coming from a lower middle class family. Show me in either post, #59 or #60, where this is said.
3. The rabid Hindutva supporters were. There is still a paper-thin difference between the two, especially when they are not being described as the same.
4. He is to be criticised not for belonging to a religion, or a caste, or a creed, or a social class, but for imposing the values of a particular religion, debasing castes of a particular grouping, and exploiting the brutish and savage, unformed boorish lack of cultivated taste of a group emerging from a particular background.
5. @Bilal9 did not say it, but I will, and it is my statement alone, not his: these supporters are the vast mass of village- and small-town-dwellers coming into the cities, carrying along a baggage of superstitious belief, gross prejudices and total unfamiliarity and disregard for the rule of law, born out of their experience of the course of legal process having been captured by the upper castes and subverted almost totally.

Degradation has taken place, and one visible effect is the wearing thin of the secular layer in the thinking of people. This was certainly not a characteristic of the rigid, left-leaning intellectuals; at least they had the virtue of leaning to the other side.

Your comment therefore is utterly irrelevant. Why you drag in the left when we are appalled at the loss of secular values is not at all clear.



Because our immediate context, as between the two Bengals, is the drifting away of the Hindu Bengali from the tolerance that he and she practised. The rest of the world is not a factor in this slow alienation.



This is such a beautiful Uncle Tom statement, the kind of statement that a perfect Muslim as defined by a Hindu would make, that I cannot help applauding the artistic perfection of the statement. After reading it, I am entirely sceptical about several identity indications that have been provided, and would rather deal with your statements as a neutral person of a neutral gender might have made.

Coming to your sentence of conclusion, the point is not about my opinion or your opinion; the point is how to avoid a majority from imposing its desires by brute force.

Thank you for your intervention. It is so redolent of the innermost thoughts and wishes of a Hindu hegemon that it really summarises that position in the fewest possible words.

Bravo Sir! I won't belittle your learned statement by characterizing it.

Suffice it to say it is one of a few accurate explanations about secularism in India we have had here on Defence.pk that I have seen.

I'd venture so far as to say urbanized educated Bengalis in general (from both Bengals) are probably the most tolerant of religion (included in the 'secular' category) in the entire subcontinent, closely followed by urbanized folk from Southern Indian states. I feel that education and money (rather lacks of both thereof) generally are the litmus tests of the roots of intolerance.

The story however is different in villages (and small mofussil towns) where long-term education levels falter.

What we have though these days is a class of people in the whole subcontinent who are pseudo-educated, meaning they can write lines of code but can't claim even a rudimentary understanding of philosophy or history, nor can debate a point. There are students in Bangladesh with BA Hons. degrees from nowhere colleges who unfortunately can't finish a sentence in English without errors.

What is happening in Bangladesh with Jamatis is an aberration of a fringe few and does not reflect the opinions/feelings of the majority (99.99%) of the people.

 

[Razia Sultana]

Yes, it is. Bhutan has established diplomatic relations with 17 out of the existing 53 countries, and became associated with 12 out of 20 organizations of the United Nations family. BD is one of the 17 countries that Bhutan maintain diplomatic relationship with. BD President is now making a State visit to Bhutan

As a sovereign nation Bhutan can have diplomatic relations with any country. The propaganda is that India is against the existence of Bhutan which is a nonsense. India shares an excellent rapport with Bhutan and respects her independence.

Bravo Sir! I won't belittle your learned statement by characterizing it.

Suffice it to say it is one of a few accurate explanations about secularism in India we have had here on Defence.pk that I have seen.

I'd venture so far as to say urbanized educated Bengalis in general (from both Bengals) are probably the most tolerant of religion (included in the 'secular' category) in the entire subcontinent, closely followed by urbanized folk from Southern Indian states. I feel that education and money (rather lacks of both thereof) generally are the litmus tests of the roots of intolerance.

The story however is different in villages (and small mofussil towns) where long-term education levels falter.

What we have though these days is a class of people in the whole subcontinent who are pseudo-educated, meaning they can write lines of code but can't claim even a rudimentary understanding of philosophy or history, nor can debate a point. There are students in Bangladesh with BA Hons. degrees from nowhere colleges who unfortunately can't finish a sentence in English without errors.

What is happening in Bangladesh with Jamatis is an aberration of a fringe few and does not reflect the opinions/feelings of the majority (99.99%) of the people.

I beg to differ with you here that urbanized and educated are secular and tolerant. At least in India you rarely hear about communal riots in villages, its majorly an urban phenomenon. Village people in general are very tolerant and have been living together peacefully since ages. The recent spurt in communalism in rural India is mainly attributed to BJP's campaign to build Ram Temple at disputed site and mushroom growth of wahabi madrassas which are contributing to radicalization among the youth. Even today, illiterate or less educated villagers have excellent communal harmony.