Plane crash at Bangalore air show

[Keysersoze]

Gee I hope it gives you the kicks.. still..

I get no personal satisfaction either way however it amuses me to see you dance around the fact that it did crash.........Unless it is some new secret way of parking.........
As Adux mentioned it is a PR disaster.....One that the Indian defence industry does not need.

 

[Adux]

Plane crashes for people who make or uses planes, Get over it everyone, wether it was towed or not, it crashed as per the world is concerned, but even then they are not going to base their decisions or evaluations according to this one crash,

F-22 crashed once, Gripen crashed thrice, Does that make em bad planes,

 

[Goodperson]

I get no personal satisfaction either way however it amuses me to see you dance around the fact that it did crash.........Unless it is some new secret way of parking.........
As Adux mentioned it is a PR disaster.....One that the Indian defence industry does not need.

Only Dhruv crashed. IJT's tire got burst, My car's tire went flat last week shall I call the insurance ?

 

[blain2]

Plane crashes for people who make or uses planes, Get over it everyone, wether it was towed or not, it crashed as per the world is concerned, but even then they are not going to base their decisions or evaluations according to this one crash,

F-22 crashed once, Gripen crashed thrice, Does that make em bad planes,

The issue is not the crash itself. Rather the venue and the timing of it. When aircraft and helis are flown in Air shows, it is done as a way to show that the platform is ready for prime-time. Tire bursting etc. in itself does happen however I must admit that it is pretty crummy maint. that an aircraft in the middle of an airshow has such a problem. The Dhruv crash with the co-pilot killed during the run-up to this show also paints HAL rather negatively. You can stick by the "**** happens" adage however events like these during air-shows stick to memories for quite a while.

 

[Adux]

The issue is not the crash itself. Rather the venue and the timing of it. When aircraft and helis are flown in Air shows, it is done as a way to show that the platform is ready for prime-time. Tire bursting etc. in itself does happen however I must admit that it is pretty crummy maint. that an aircraft in the middle of an airshow has such a problem. The Dhruv crash with the co-pilot killed during the run-up to this show also paints HAL rather negatively. You can stick by the "**** happens" adage however events like these during air-shows stick to memories for quite a while.

I dont know why you have to use that tone with me, If you read up the thread, i have already said it is "PR disaster", Not that I care.
And yes **** Happens, So get over it.

 

[Muradk]

Did not want to open a new thread so will post it here , we are talkign about IAF .

These are difficult and uncomfortable times for the Indian Air Force. On January 16, 2006, the IAF chief had asked the media to stop calling MiG-21 a “flying coffin”. And yet, on January 17, a MiG 21 crashed after facing an engine surge during a training sortie over the Jamnagar air base. That the position continues to be grim could be seen from the following figures (the numbers denote the original total, current total and year of first delivery respectively):

Among the multirole fighters,

Sukhoi Su-30 PU — 8, 8, 1997

Sukhoi Su-30K — 10, 10, 1999

Sukhoi Su-30 MKI — 162, 35, 2002

Among air defence aircraft,

Dassault Mirage 2000 H — 46, 37, 1985

MiG-29 ‘Fulcrum-A’ — 90, 65, 1986

MiG-23MF ‘Flogger-B’ — 36, 25, 1982

Among air defence/attack aircraft,

MiG-21 (MiG-21Bis-UPG) — 125, 120, 1999

MiG-21Bis ‘Fishbed-L’ — 300, 50, 1977

MiG-21FL ‘Fishbed-D’ — 240, 70, 1966

MiG-21M/MF ‘Fishbed-J’ — 180, 40-50, 1973

Among attack aircraft,

HAL LCA (Tejas) — 28, 2008

MiG-23BN ‘Flogger-H’ — 95, 65, 1980

MiG-27M ‘Flogger-J’ — 165, 130, 1985

SEPECAT Jaguar IS — 104, 70, 1979

Among maritime attack aircraft,

SEPECAT Jaguar IM — 12, 10, 1979

Among combat helicopters,

Mil Mi-25 ‘Hind-D’ — 12, 8, 1984

Mil Mi-35 ‘Hind-E’ — 20, 15, 1990

HAL ALH Dhruv — 150, 8, 2001

Among assault helicopters,

Mil Mi-8 ‘Hip’ — 150, 64, 1971

Mil Mi-17 ‘Hip-H’ — 100, 56, 1984

Mil Mi-17M ‘Hip-H’ — 40, 40, 2001

Among reconnaissance aircraft, the MiG-25R ‘Foxbat-B’ — 3 (decommissioned with effect from May 2006), 1981;

BAC EAI Canberra PR. Mk 57 — 12, 3, 1957

Among observation helicopters,

HAL HSA 316B Chetak — 25, 25, 1965

Among the aircraft used for transport,

HAL/Avro 748/748M — 67, 43, 1964

Antonov An-32 ‘Cline’ — 118, 105, 1984

llyushin ll-76MD ‘Candid’ — 17, 16 1985

HAL/Dornier 228 — 24, 20, 1987

Mil Mi-26 ‘Halo’ — 10, 8, 1986

Among tanker-transport aircraft,

Ilyushin ll-78 MK ‘Midas’ — 6, 6, 2003

Among communication aircraft,

Boeing 737-2A8 — 6, 4, 1984

Embraer EMB-135BJ Legacy — 4, 2, 2005

Among combat support aircraft,

BAC EAI Canberra B(TT). — 5, 1957

Mk 2/B(I)TT.Mk 58

Among trainers,

HAL HJT-36 Sitara — 16, 16, 2007

BAE Sytems Hawk Mk — 132, 66

HAL HPT-32 Deepak — 142, 115, 1985

HAL HJT-16 Kiran l/lA/ll — 118/72/60, 130, 1968

WSK-Mielec TS-11 lskra — 71, 50, 1975

HAL HSA 316B Chetak — 10, 10, 1965

HAL HSA 315B Cheetah — 10, 10, 1973

MiG-21U/US/UM ‘Mongol-A/B’ — 100-plus, 60, 1966

MiG-23UB ‘Flogger-C’ — 35, 18, 1980

MiG-25 RU ‘Foxbat-C’ — 2 (decommissioned, May 2006), 1981

MiG-29UB ‘Fulcrum-B’ — 8-plus, 6, 1986

SEPECAT Jaguar lB — 32, 26, 1979

Dassault Mirage 2000TH — 13, 11, 1985

Three llyushin ll-76 ‘Phalcon’ will be effective from 2007 for airborne early warning.

Is this a revelation? No. This is no military secret. It has been reported by ‘Jane’s World Air Forces’ and the analysis requires (virtually) no expertise, the data being clear and clean even to a lay man.

Of the 16 types of aircraft and rotorcraft with the IAF, the combat support and reconnaissance Canberra inducted in 1957 still flies (and crashes, as one did in January 2006 near Agra). One marvels at the magical performance of the IAF men to keep the 8 Canberras airworthy even after 49 years.

Jane’s revelation of the IAF inventory shows that the transport aircraft, Avro 748, also flies after 42 years, along with HAL-made Chetak 316B helicopter (41 years), and the air defence and attacking MiG 21 FL (40 years). Sadly, however, age appears to have taken a toll on the numbers of aircraft. Incredible also is the saga of the ex-USSR-made assault helicopter Mil-8, whose number has come down from 150 to 64 in 35 years.

This is not all. Virtually every other combat flying machine of the IAF has completed more than 20 years service life. Even the MiG-27 M Flogger J attack aircraft and the llyushin 76 MD Candid transport aircraft are 21 years vintage. The only exception to this list of old wine IAF inventory, mercifully, is the fleet of Sukhoi-30, first inducted into the 24th squadron at Pune in 1997.

The question may be legitimately asked: has the “major block obsolescence” hit the IAF inventory? If yes, then what is the remedy? How does one resolve this problem? If the answer is no, then what is the reality? Are the aircraft of other major air forces older than India’s?

A cursory glance through the Chinese air force inventory would reveal that its fleet obsolescence is less pronounced than the IAF’s. The Chinese bombers may be 38/39 years old, but their interception and attack-type aircraft are brand new. However, the average age of Chinese combat aircraft varies between 40 to 46 years. And they are due for replacement.

Closer to New Delhi, the Pakistani air force too is beset with the modernization/obsolescence dilemma. The age of its multirole F-16 fighters is 23 years, and the original total of 40 aircraft has dwindled to 32. The age of its “attack” fleet, Fantan and Mirage-5, too varies between 23 to 33 years. The only exception, however, is the Chinese-built air defence aircraft, with age varying between 4 and 18 years.

It would, however, not be wise to compare the IAF with the Pakistani and Chinese ones because the security environment of New Delhi vis-à-vis her neighbours is far more complicated than that of Beijing and Islamabad. Seen thus, the recurring crashes of the old fleet make the need for modernization all the more urgent.

One may find innumerable faults with the IAF system, but should one continue to criticize and whip further the men who are already demoralized, watching their aircraft turn into “flying coffins”? The IAF does seem to be burdened with the age of its fighting birds. And the only way to come out of the morass appears to be the induction of new fleet. Whether one chooses French Mirage-2000 or Rafale; US F-16 or F-18; Swedish JAS-39 Viggen, Russian MiG-29/35 or Eurofighter matters little; but what does matter to the sagging morale of the brave IAF men is quick action. Today, every Indian is concerned. The young pilots and their old machines may not gel one fine morning. What happens then? Should one then blame the men who wanted to fly? Or the machines which could not fly?

 

[Keysersoze]

Plane crashes for people who make or uses planes, Get over it everyone, wether it was towed or not, it crashed as per the world is concerned, but even then they are not going to base their decisions or evaluations according to this one crash,

F-22 crashed once, Gripen crashed thrice, Does that make em bad planes,

Actually the Gripen lost several sales because of a televised crash during development. Like it or not sales pitches are influenced by things like this.

 

[Keysersoze]

Only Dhruv crashed. IJT's tire got burst, My car's tire went flat last week shall I call the insurance ?

Did your car crash at a major international show where you where showcasing your car with the possibility of selling your car elsewhere? And did it happen twice?

 

[blain2]

I dont know why you have to use that tone with me, If you read up the thread, i have already said it is "PR disaster", Not that I care.
And yes **** Happens, So get over it.

I am not using any tone my friend. It was just an observation. I did not mean to offend by stating "**** happens". You misunderstood me as well. But life goes on.

 

[Adux]

I am not using any tone my friend. It was just an observation. I did not mean to offend by stating "**** happens". You misunderstood me as well. But life goes on.

As you say Life goes on,

 

[joey]

Let me get this a bit straight shall we?

1> IJT is still in prototype stage though developement has almost complete.
2> It burst due to tyre crash, lost inertial stabilisation.
3> As far as i recall HAL CEO said he isnt looking for IJT exports immediately, our armed forces has requirement of over 100+, let that come first.
4> We are exporting other things.
5> I was present there, unfortunate incident.
6> IJT has more than 60% recoverable parts, so loss isnt that much.

To himeed > your comparing CAC with HAL why ? do you know about status of crashes being unreported in china? give me a break! last time i checked only 1 media reported the failure of Sinosat 1, chinas heaviest comm SAT.

 

[Bull]

A cursory glance through the Chinese air force inventory would reveal that its fleet obsolescence is less pronounced than the IAF’s. The Chinese bombers may be 38/39 years old, but their interception and attack-type aircraft are brand new. However, the average age of Chinese combat aircraft varies between 40 to 46 years. And they are due for replacement.

Yopu have analysed the IAF inventory very well, thanks to that.

But your PLAAF summary was very vague you have left too many grey areas.
You say PLAAF has much newer planes than IAF,but still you say the avg age is around 46 years. Now isnt that as the same as IAF?

 

[Bull]

And yet, on January 17, a MiG 21 crashed after facing an engine surge during a training sortie over the Jamnagar air base. That the position continues to be grim could be seen from the following figures (the numbers denote the original total, current total and year of first delivery respectively):

Well im sure you are aware of IAFs crashes during the last year.A lot of the crashes were reported to be because of the lack of genuine trainer planes in IAF inventory.

So wouldnt it be wrong to say that crashes can be attributed to the single factor of airframe wornouts.

I know that you know this area very well, im just trying to get it right.

Among the multirole fighters,

Sukhoi Su-30 PU — 8, 8, 1997

Sukhoi Su-30K — 10, 10, 1999

Sukhoi Su-30 MKI — 162, 35, 2002

Among air defence aircraft,

Dassault Mirage 2000 H — 46, 37, 1985

MiG-29 ‘Fulcrum-A’ — 90, 65, 1986

Among attack aircraft,

HAL LCA (Tejas) — 28, 2008

MiG-27M ‘Flogger-J’ — 165, 130, 1985

Isnt it unfair to call airframes 20 years old as obsolete or needing replacement? Mig 29 is scheduled for upgradation, Mig 27 is undergoing upgradation similar to the BISON upgrade.

SEPECAT Jaguar IS — 104, 70, 1979

Your statement that all 70 odd Jaguars as 1979 is also wrong.

Only 18 entered service in 1978-79( which was loaned and later returned). IAF recieved 40 in 1981, 80 more in 1985-88 period(HAL manufactured) and 15 more between 1993-99 and another 17 in 2001 and another 37 is under construction with HAL which will be delivered by 2009-10.

And to all that Jaguars have been upgraded by sextant, elta, Smith Industries Aerospace.

 

[Keysersoze]

Let me get this a bit straight shall we?

1> IJT is still in prototype stage though developement has almost complete.
2> It burst due to tyre crash, lost inertial stabilisation.
3> As far as i recall HAL CEO said he isnt looking for IJT exports immediately, our armed forces has requirement of over 100+, let that come first.
4> We are exporting other things.
5> I was present there, unfortunate incident.
6> IJT has more than 60% recoverable parts, so loss isnt that much.

To himeed > your comparing CAC with HAL why ? do you know about status of crashes being unreported in china? give me a break! last time i checked only 1 media reported the failure of Sinosat 1, chinas heaviest comm SAT.

What are we getting straight? It was agreed that it does not look good from the perspective of PR. Thanks for straightening something that we all understood anyway.

 

[joey]

Something which is straight for you isnt straight for fellas like himeed, my post was for him who jumps out of the box hearing a crash without knowing how many faces nations with fully developed aeronautical r&d suffers, we are just fortraying into that.

I know what you meant key and my post wasnt meant for you.