PLA Presence in Northern Areas ? ? ?

[GUNNER]

Your assertion that Gilgit-Baltistan is open to foreign journalists seems to have fallen flat on its face, your stoic silence on the topic leaves only this inference. Members of European Parliament are not allowed permission to go there forget foreign journalists. This rises the question - what is Pakistan trying to hide??

Let me address your query. Do you have facts or any hard news story which says foreigners are not allowed in GB? I doubt it because it's not true. As far as EU Members not being allowed is concerned, i am not sure where it comes from. Because a conference was just recently held in Skardu, where all foreign ambassadors in Pakistan stayed for like ten days. It made headlines because they were stuck there due to bad weather. And foreign journos visit GB routinely.

 

[Renegade]

Let me address your query. Do you have facts or any hard news story which says foreigners are not allowed in GB? I doubt it because it's not true. As far as EU Members not being allowed is concerned, i am not sure where it comes from. Because a conference was just recently held in Skardu, where all foreign ambassadors in Pakistan stayed for like ten days. It made headlines because they were stuck there due to bad weather. And foreign journos visit GB routinely.

Let me quote from the article from the New York Time, based on which this thread was started:

"The entire western portion of Kashmir stretching from Gilgit in the north to Azad (Free) Kashmir in the south is closed to the world, in contrast to the media access that India permits in the eastern part, where it is combating a Pakistan-backed insurgency. But reports from a variety of foreign intelligence sources, Pakistani journalists and Pakistani human rights workers reveal two important new developments in Gilgit-Baltistan: a simmering rebellion against Pakistani rule and the influx of an estimated 7,000 to 11,000 soldiers of the People’s Liberation Army."

Now the article says that Gilgit-Baltistan & Azad Kashmir are closed to the world in contrast to the media access that India permits in the eastern part. The key word to note here is "media access" and not tourists. Permitting a few mountain climbers is not akin to providing access to foreign journalists. Where is the contradiction, unless you want to play with words!!

I have another article with me, in which a Gilgit-Baltistan leader says that the region is closed to "foreign journalists", but since the link is not working i am not posting it. Having done a fair bit of research on the internet, all indications that i get, only reaffirm the point mentioned in the NYT article.

 

[muse]

But reports from a variety of foreign intelligence sources, Pakistani journalists and Pakistani human rights workers reveal two important new developments in Gilgit-Baltistan: a simmering rebellion against Pakistani rule and the influx of an estimated 7,000 to 11,000 soldiers of the People’s Liberation Army.

What reports are these? Have any been presented in this thread, or does the Lifafa journalist Harrison offer us any other than asserting them into existence?

A large tract of territory in *** is now under the effective control of the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA),” a Singapore-based analyst who returned recently from Afghanistan said on the condition of anonymity

.


Not onloy is it a shame that this passes for journalism in India - but whatr is greater shame is that it passed the muster of Mods and Admin.

 

[RobbieS]

What reports are these? Have any been presented in this thread, or does the Lifafa journalist Harrison offer us any other than asserting them into existence?

.


Not onloy is it a shame that this passes for journalism in India - but whatr is greater shame is that it passed the muster of Mods and Admin.

If mods start they removing threads just because the articles that they used were baseless in their opinion, we will have almost nothing to discuss. And thats true for PDF members of all nationality.

 

[muse]

Easy, RobbieS - But now that YOU have brought up the nationality of those posters who continue to post baseless articles, one can't fail to notice that a majority of those are posted by Indian forum members.

Now, whether you are Indian or martian, it should offend you that other forum members think your mentality is such that you will accept information presented completely without merit. It offends me and it should offend you - we have tons of things to discuss, we should not be discussing politically motivated rumors presented as facts - it's reflects poorly on us, it reflects poorly on the papers that publish this kind of nonsense.

 

[RobbieS]

Easy, RobbieS - But now that YOU have brought up the nationality of those posters who continue to post baseless articles, one can't fail to notice that a majority of those are posted by Indian forum members.

Now, whether you are Indian or martian, it should offend you that other forum members think your mentality is such that you will accept information presented completely without merit. It offends me and it should offend you - we have tons of things to discuss, we should not be discussing politically motivated rumors presented as facts - it's reflects poorly on us, it reflects poorly on the papers that publish this kind of nonsense.

I have brought up nationality but not any particular one, as you would have read in my post. Its you who's named one nationality, sparing the others and being condescending about others. But I will pass.

I agree that baseless information should have no place in the forum. And this is best for the general spirit of the and to have an intelligent an informative debate. But the problem here is that our different perspectives and views make us partisan towards certain piece of news and articles. Whats a baseless article to an Indian member, could be a valid and thought provoking article to a Pakistani guy. Whoes the judge here? The Mods? I am not questioning their ability, but their judgement abilities (for articles) will be subjective to their nationality. Thats a fact.

And regarding the article in question being baseless, scroll back a few pages and you'll see Pakistani members echoing some of the views of the author. Pakistani members didnt mind China setting up bases on Pakistani soil. Now would you still call the whole article baseless?

 

[muse]

Baseless is Baseless to everybody - Baseless means that there is no evidence offered of what the piece asserts to be facts - now regardless of one's nationality, this is a criteria we must use because that is what the word refers to. None of this sillyness that just because one is an Indian, that somehow the laws of language are different for the Indian.

 

[EjazR]

Well stationing some troops is not like taking over the region. US troops have been in Pakistan for a long time. So nothing to get hyper if Chinese troops are invited as well.

OFcourse until a secondary source is provided we wont know for sure.


But do check out the EU report by Baroness Emma Nicholson on JAmmu and Kashmir(just google it). The EU parliament endorsed and it critised the lack of any sort of politcal rights in the then Northern Areas. It was because of that many think that Musharraf came up with the politcal package for Giglit. Otherwise there had been no responsible government for the last 60 years there.

 

[RobbieS]

Baseless is Baseless to everybody - Baseless means that there is no evidence offered of what the piece asserts to be facts - now regardless of one's nationality, this is a criteria we must use because that is what the word refers to. None of this sillyness that just because one is an Indian, that somehow the laws of language are different for the Indian.

I hope everybody's definition of evidence and facts is the same.

And what is with- the Indian? I have seen your other posts - the Indian this and the Indian that...You do know that its not the correct way of addressing a group pf people of a nationality. Its the Indians or India. Not the Indian.

 

[TextMiner]

Let me address your query. Do you have facts or any hard news story which says foreigners are not allowed in GB? I doubt it because it's not true. As far as EU Members not being allowed is concerned, i am not sure where it comes from. Because a conference was just recently held in Skardu, where all foreign ambassadors in Pakistan stayed for like ten days. It made headlines because they were stuck there due to bad weather. And foreign journos visit GB routinely.

There are in fact routine reports of Genocide being carried out by the Pakistani authorities, in case of Gilgit-Baltistan and Baluchistan as mentioned in this link. Of prime importance is this statement

DANIEL MARTEL, of International Institute for Peace, said one of the characteristics that set human beings apart from other animals was not just the capacity to think and cognate, but also the capacity to speak and express in language. Without freedom of expression, there was no culture, no tradition, no morality, no science, no technology, no philosophies, no ideology and no values. Sadly, this aspiration was being violated and destroyed day in and day out in many parts of the world. In regions of Gilgit-Baltistan and Baluchistan, where a war-like situation prevailed and the central Government was using armed force against the civilians, the situation was such. Unless the international community took up the cause of the people of Gilgit-Baltistan and Baluchistan, they would continue to suffer at the hands of Pakistani authorities. The international community should focus on the lack of freedom of expression in these areas, where the Pakistani army was carrying out genocide.

As to your trumpet of Foreigners and journalists not being allowed, please go through this link. This is a very significant portion of the same.

Pakistan never claimed Gilgit-Baltistan as belonging to its territory. The constitution of Pakistan and its map don't show it as belonging to Pakistan. On the other hand it does not show it as a part of Jammu and Kashmir either. At the same time Pakistan is not prepared to give it an independent status or to enable its people to adopt a modern, transparent democratic system. They are closely watched by the different 'security agencies' operating in Gilgit-Baltistan: ISI (Inter Services Intelligence), IB (Intelligence Bureau), FIU (Field Intelligence Unit), MI (Military Intelligence), etc. Foreigners and journalists are forbidden to visit the area. There is no representation of the people in the Pakistan National Assembly. The locals need an exit permit for moving out of the area.

 

[TaimiKhan]

If mods start they removing threads just because the articles that they used were baseless in their opinion, we will have almost nothing to discuss. And thats true for PDF members of all nationality.

An article gets posted about Chinese troops in Northern Areas, and members start posting articles How Azad is Azad Kashmir or other nonsense BS articles, all from Indian sources, which we are well aware for their authenticity and their biased approach.

So now use the common sense and tell me what has the article How Azad is Azad Kashmir anything to do with the article saying that Chinese troops are there in Northern Areas ??

Does it makes sense ?? For Indian members it may make sense as it serves their purpose of derailing the thread, but we as Pakistanis and as mods, it doesn't.

That is why we mods are here and do the judgment so that people like you by posting nonsense and non-linked articles don't derail the threads, which is a very good trait of your countrymen.

It may seem to you a mod being biased, but i being a mod spend a lot of time cleaning dirt on the forum and i very well know who does what and who doesn't and which country members are more into trolling and derailing threads.

Just to give you an idea, this same article got posted 6-8 times and all by Indian members, and in some threads after the first article, other nonsence and BS articles related to Kashmir also got posted, so now tell me should the members discuss about the Chinese troops issue or how Azad is Azad Kashmir issue.

First atleast discuss properly the first article posted and then post other articles for discussion on them.

We give you guys a lot of room, no where on the net you can go to a Pakistani forum and discuss so much about Pakistan and do Pakistan bashing and getting away with it, go and check your own Indian forums, how much freedom is given to Pakistani members and then come here and complain.

We know what to do and how to do, let us do our job and you guys do your job.

 

[muse]

Indian never seems to tire of expressing hatred toward Pakistan - Now that China has denied visa for a leading Indian occupation army officer, Indian is hopping mad at the international embarassment. Further as China's economy integrates more and more with Pakistan and as the possibility for more people to people contacts increase with the construction of rail and road networks, a desperate attempt to portray peaceful and friendly Pakistan China relations as a threat to Pakistanis, is being made.

Indian has no standing, relations between Pakistan and CHina will continue to grow and deepen, terrorists, in the pay of thus far unknown persons or country, will continue to wreck havoc in Pakistan and threaten lives in China as well - Who benefits from this? It's a dangerous game.

 

[TaimiKhan]

There are in fact routine reports of Genocide being carried out by the Pakistani authorities, in case of Gilgit-Baltistan and Baluchistan as mentioned in this link. Of prime importance is this statement

As to your trumpet of Foreigners and journalists not being allowed, please go through this link. This is a very significant portion of the same.

I wonder, why is it so hard for the Indian members to understand a simple logic, if there is genocide in Norther Areas, then why isn't there any uprising ?? 16 NLI battalions fully composed of members from Northern Areas are serving in Pakistan Army, these same NLI units which kicked Indian arses in Kargil, why are they doing so if their kins and relatives are being killed through a genocide ?? Why are they serving in the same PA which is being accused ?? People in thousands of unmarked graves are lying in the Indian Occupied Kashmir, not the Azad Kashmir. Should i mention and rapes and God knows what not ?? Should i mention other Indian SF record in rest of the India ??

And now you bring in Balochistan and then say we don't derail threads. Go to the Balochistan thread and read if serious enough, otherwise don't waste your time as the Indian peoples mentality won't change, they wanna keep thinking what they like to.

 

[ajpirzada]

a quiet geopolitical crisis is unfolding in the Himalayan borderlands of northern Pakistan

knowing that neither pakistan nor china has any problem with this, how then it can be a 'geopolitical crisis'?

The entire western portion of Kashmir stretching from Gilgit in the north to Azad (Free) Kashmir in the south is closed to the world

its closed to world but open to american OBL hunters!

influx of an estimated 7,000 to 11,000 soldiers of the People’s Liberation Army.

only this many soldiers to take control of the whole area?

China wants a grip on the region to assure unfettered road and rail access to the Gulf through Pakistan. It takes 16 to 25 days for Chinese oil tankers to reach the Gulf. When high-speed rail and road links through Gilgit and Baltistan are completed, China will be able to transport cargo from Eastern China to the new Chinese-built Pakistani naval bases at Gwadar, Pasni and Ormara, just east of the Gulf, within 48 hours.

why does this offend the world? i think world should stop using suez canal and instead use the longer route

Many of the P.L.A. soldiers entering Gilgit-Baltistan are expected to work on the railroad. Some are extending the Karakoram Highway, built to link China’s Sinkiang Province with Pakistan. Others are working on dams, expressways and other projects.

isnt this a gud thing? economic development of pakistan will discourage terrorism by reducing poverty.

Until recently, the P.L.A. construction crews lived in temporary encampments and went home after completing their assignments. Now they are building big residential enclaves clearly designed for a long-term presence.

obviously. these projects will take years to complete. therefore u need proper accommodations and not just temporary encampments

What is happening in the region matters to Washington for two reasons. Coupled with its support for the Taliban, Islamabad’s collusion in facilitating China’s access to the Gulf makes clear that Pakistan is not a U.S. “ally.”

why should china not get access to gulf? leave pakistan aside. even if they get access via india and india is fine with that, no one should have any problem. gulf is not american land

Equally important, the nascent revolt in the Gilgit-Baltistan region is a reminder that Kashmiri demands for autonomy on both sides of the cease-fire line would have to be addressed in a settlement.

yes now is the time to settle it or else chinease will take all the pie

 

[RobbieS]

An article gets posted about Chinese troops in Northern Areas, and members start posting articles How Azad is Azad Kashmir or other nonsense BS articles, all from Indian sources, which we are well aware for their authenticity and their biased approach.

So now use the common sense and tell me what has the article How Azad is Azad Kashmir anything to do with the article saying that Chinese troops are there in Northern Areas ??

Does it makes sense ?? For Indian members it may make sense as it serves their purpose of derailing the thread, but we as Pakistanis and as mods, it doesn't.

That is why we mods are here and do the judgment so that people like you by posting nonsense and non-linked articles don't derail the threads, which is a very good trait of your countrymen.

It may seem to you a mod being biased, but i being a mod spend a lot of time cleaning dirt on the forum and i very well know who does what and who doesn't and which country members are more into trolling and derailing threads.

Just to give you an idea, this same article got posted 6-8 times and all by Indian members, and in some threads after the first article, other nonsence and BS articles related to Kashmir also got posted, so now tell me should the members discuss about the Chinese troops issue or how Azad is Azad Kashmir issue.

First atleast discuss properly the first article posted and then post other articles for discussion on them.

We give you guys a lot of room, no where on the net you can go to a Pakistani forum and discuss so much about Pakistan and do Pakistan bashing and getting away with it, go and check your own Indian forums, how much freedom is given to Pakistani members and then come here and complain.

We know what to do and how to do, let us do our job and you guys do your job.

Dont take it personally Taimi. You are getting heated up over nothing. And you'd know better than to call out people of one nationality as you know members of all nationality here indulge in the act in question here. You would know that there would be plenty of examples where Pakistanis or BD guys have derailed threads. Heck, the China denies visa to Indian general thread got posted twice. And we even had Pakistani Elite members posting on both the threads! Not an accident.

And you are mistaken if you think I am complaining. Which one of my posts on this thread seemed like complaining? And please dont start again with "Look at BR and then talk". Well, I have been to other Pak forums as well. Pakdef being one of them. The kind of bigots and racists you have there will make BR members look like angels. Its true that PDF is one of the most balanced forums around. But the fact remains that once you swear by your impartiality and neutrality, saying things like "We give you guys a lot of freedom" sounds odd.

And my point in my discussion with Muse was that its tough to decide which article is baseless and which is not. And as the background of the Mods here is Pakistani they would inadvertently find articles baseless that Indians would find to be on solid ground. Its natural without accusing anybody of partiality.