PLA Presence in Northern Areas ? ? ?

[Spring Onion]

Why don't you provide a current credible news link to substantiate your claims. Like the previous Guardian article, just don't post an outdated article again. I had nearly bought your argument till i checked the dates, then the deception became evident. otherwise its your word against that of a credible paper like the NYT. and no prizes for guessing whose word i am going to take!!

.

i live here in KP (former NWFP) as well as Taimi though Gilgilt, Baltistan is a separate province now but virtually for travelers in NWFP its like local part of our province in terms of journey.

My senior colleagues are from Gilgit, one of them is working in The News. People here travel to these areas as easily as we can in our city. As well as outsiders all those goras who are working for NGOs are allowed to go there NO restriction.

Only when there is snowfall and roads a block in winter the travllers have to wait.

if you wana go there please have a vias and come i will facilitate your travel

 

[Spring Onion]

That what I thought. I dont think PLA has any sort of control in these areas. In future, it would be interesting if Pakistan actually allows China to set up a military base or maintain a permanent military presence in the area.

I am all for that base. Its good for all sides China, Pakistan and locals already on ground the highest literacy rate in Pakistan is in Northern Areas specially Gilgit, Chitral due to Agha Khan foundation massively investing there

 

[TaimiKhan]

That what I thought. I dont think PLA has any sort of control in these areas. In future, it would be interesting if Pakistan actually allows China to set up a military base or maintain a permanent military presence in the area.

Pakistan won't allow any Chinese military presence in those areas, as we may be having our strategic assets over there, thus no one would be allowed in those areas.

But Gwadar can't be ruled out in future if Pakistan doesn't disappears , that also naval presence.

 

[Renegade]

Do one thing, buy a ticket and come to Pakistan, i will take you myself there and show you around. How about that.

Thanks for the offer. Much that i would like to go to such a pristine place, i am sure the area is out of bounds to Indian citizens. As you must be aware that Pakistan gives city specific visas to visiting Indian nationals, courtesy the establishment. Heck, Sania Mirza didn't get a visa to visit Sialkot and she married a Pakistani crickter and i am but a mere Indian citizen.

Or else Google yourself and see how many tourist companies have stopped services in Northern Areas. Or better call them up and tell you are a foreigner and wants to go to Norther Areas or on a tracking expedition, see what they reply.

Here see, these mountaineers died climbing K-2 in last few months and in last one year and they would definitely not have come all alone to Pakistan, must have come with their teams.

Swedish mountain climber Frederik Ericsson Dies in K2

Bulgarian mountaineer dies on K2 - Bulgaria - The Sofia Echo

DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Bulgarian mountaineer dies on Pakistan?s K2

DAWN.COM | National | Italian mountaineer dies during K2 descent

Mountain climbers and adventure seekers don't qualify as journalists. Neither do they report on political happenings in those areas. An Member of European Parliament (MEP) Ryszard Czarnecki, was recently denied permission to visit Gilgit Baltistan.

[ MEP expressed his disappointment with the government of Pakistan, after being refused the permission to visit Gilgit-Baltistan, which could have allowed him to learn about the ground realities. He showed his desire to meet the members of the civil society and human rights defenders of Gilgit-Baltistan after receiving the opportunity to travel to Gilgit-Baltistan. MEP said, ”The issue of Gilgit-Baltistan will be raised in the European Union Parliament, and the members will be informed about Pakistan’s apathy towards the rights and concerns of the people of Gilgit-Baltistan.”]

A new ghost political party, Gilgit-Baltistan National Congress, emerges at international stage | PAMIR TIMES

An Member of European Parliament being denied permission to visit Gilgit-Baltistan so i am sure Foreign Journalists are not being give the privilege either.

Well who said anything about the authenticity of the wikileaks documents, the US govt acknowledged the documents and these newspapers were just reproducers, it wasn't their own product.

And its another topic discussed in detail, but who isn't playing a double game in Afghanistan ?? The US, Indians, Afghans themselves. Who isn't ??

So stick to the topic.

That was only pointed out to reaffirm the credibility of these papers, for you had dismissed the NYT article as ill informed and baseless.

 

[GentlemanObserver]

LOL, this guy seriously needs to take some map reading lessons.

 

[Tractor]

I know there is a place named Hunza in that area and I saw some images of it which dominated with some buildings in Chinese style as those in Beijing or somewhere.I wonder if these buildings were built by chinese people(or P.L.A.)and used for attracting chinese visitors or they are just symbols to show china's influences out there.

 

[RobbieS]

Pakistan won't allow any Chinese military presence in those areas, as we may be having our strategic assets over there, thus no one would be allowed in those areas.

But Gwadar can't be ruled out in future if Pakistan doesn't disappears , that also naval presence.

I am assuming the bold part was a typo.

I understand Pakistan allowing China to set up a naval base close to the Persian Gulf. But two issues that I see - Sovereignty and the US of A.

The former may be not much of an issue as the naval base can be underplayed and deemed necessary for geo-political reasons. Similar to the case for NATO bases in Pakistan's Western regions.

But I see the latter to be much of an issue. Wouldnt the US pressurize the Army into not giving in to the Chinese? Why would the US tolerate Chinese presence so close to its sphere of influence in the Gulf? And we cant underestimate US's influence on Pak's military establishment. After all if they can decide who heads the Army (I am talking about Mushy vacating the spot for Kiyani who was clearly in US' good books) they can very well decide who sets up a base in Pakistan.

I think its more likely that PA would use Chinese proximity as a bargaining chip with the US. More arms, greater role in deciding the future of Afghanistan, more cash into the coffers of the Generals, etc.

 

[GentlemanObserver]

I know there is a place named Hunza in that area and I saw some images of it which dominated with some buildings in Chinese style as those in Beijing or somewhere.I wonder if these buildings were built by chinese people(or P.L.A.)and used for attracting chinese visitors or they are just symbols to show china's influences out there.

Was it by any chance this:

If so then what you saw was the Shangrila resort in Skardu Pakistan:
Here is the website for more info:
Shangrila Resort - Heaven on Earth, Skardu Pakistan

Hope this helps.

 

[EjazR]

Rather than personal anecdotes I think hard infromation should be resorted to.

Are there any local newspapers published from Gilgit or Kashmir in Pakistan the way you can find dozens in Indian Kashmir?
When was the most recent census completed on the litracy and econommic situation in Gilgit by GoP? Do we have details on the ethnic compositions e.t.c.? I think GoP statistics should provide info on these.

 

[huzihaidao12]

As long as Pakistan agree, I do not think there is anything wrong.

In fact, I hope note, PAL's work force with the armed forces are different, PAL's work force is high, strict discipline, usually a number of business can not accept, but it is a great need and the technical difficulty is very large, very hard work,most of these work to complete by the PAL's work force.

In fact, in 1968, the first highway between China and Pakistan, is PAL's work force to bear and completed.

See this documentary <secret Pakistani road construction Chronicle>
http://vsearch.cctv.com/plgs_play-CCTV10prog_20100509_7204117_0.html?


"Pakistani secret road building Chronicle" is a China Central Television filmed a documentary.


September 30, 1965 Pakistan's request for the Corps Commander Farooq PRC Premier Zhou Enlai of any construction of a road in the northern region, Chou En-lai agreed to aid consideration. 1966 Spring Road, across the board started the CMB, 3500 Corps soldiers were immediately transferred over, introduced the mandate of the Chinese section of the road. [1]

May 9, 2010, by the Corps Party Propaganda Department, Corps and television stations a series of television documentary film "secret road building Pakistan Chronicle" in the ten sets of CCTV broadcast, film is the true construction of the CMB in this fresh for the road known history; demonstrated in human subjects corps of cadres and workers built roads difficult process of Sino-Pakistani highway; demonstrates the corps of people to carry forward the spirit of internationalism, the cause of world peace and make an important contribution to promote the spirit of the great Corps.


1 set
In mid-June 1968, a huge number of teams quietly passing Khunjerab China boundary marker, into Pakistan's northern mountains, the car is more than 10 000 young people wearing blue work clothes, They crept into Pakistan, where in order to complete a special secret mission, the construction of roads CMB. In the next few years, the Chinese road construction workers face many difficulties and hardships.


2 sets
June 25, 1973, China and Pakistan in Rawalpindi, Pakistan signed a "Sino-Pakistani highway reconstruction phase II" agreement. Agreement are: 1, China once again into the road team to continue to build roads in Pakistan. 2, the second stage length 459.3 km. 3 out of 9,000 Chinese people, the Palestinians out of 6,000. Sinister face of the second phase of the geographical conditions and frequent geological disasters, the Chinese road-building team effort and sacrifice to pay it.

Episode 3
From 1968, in Pakistan's northern mountains, there is a Chinese team in the secret road construction project code-named "1601", which is the Chinese-aided projects in Pakistan - Pakistan road. The face of tough harsh environment, frequent geological disasters, industrial accidents, how will China's road construction team to face? In the road construction site in a small hospital, where were you referred to as "angels."


4 sets
October 8, 1976, China and Pakistan are preparing for the road a big explosion, the blasting of explosives quantity of 50 tons, which is Pakistan's largest highway construction in 14 years the scale of blasting. Explosives are filling in the six 8-13 m deep shot holes, shot to cut the six holes, pneumatic drill workers had fought more than three months. Blasting begins on the next day at noon. Huge disaster also happened at that moment ... ...

 

[huzihaidao12]

China's assistance to Tanzania Tanzania-Zambia railway is completed by the PAL's work force.
http://cn.bing.com/reference/semhtml/TAZARA_Railway

 

[Spring Onion]

Rather than personal anecdotes I think hard infromation should be resorted to.

Are there any local newspapers published from Gilgit or Kashmir in Pakistan the way you can find dozens in Indian Kashmir?
When was the most recent census completed on the litracy and econommic situation in Gilgit by GoP? Do we have details on the ethnic compositions e.t.c.? I think GoP statistics should provide info on these.

Daily Mahasib Gilgit Baltistan
Daily Baad-e-Shimal (Gilgit, Baltistan) [In Urdu]

Daily Jammu & Kashmir (Azad kashmir) [In Urdu]

Daily Kashmir Express (Kashmir) [In Urdu]

# Kashmir Observer (Kashmir) [In English]
# Kashmir International (Muzafrabad)
# Kashmir International (Pakistan & Azad Kashmir)
# Kashmir Watch

#
# Mirpur Times.com (Mirpur, Kashmir)

Sada-e-Waqt (Azad Kashmir, Islamabad, Rawalpindi)


The list is long to post here apart from all major Newspapers and news channels have offices and outlets in Azad Kashmir and reporters, desks for Balitistan, Gilgit, Chitral.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Some projects because of the huge, hard, high technical difficulties, general business can not assume, however, a very urgent need, most of the engineering assume by PAL's work force , no fuss, as long as Pakistan know and agree.

 

[GentlemanObserver]

Rather than personal anecdotes I think hard infromation should be resorted to.

Are there any local newspapers published from Gilgit or Kashmir in Pakistan the way you can find dozens in Indian Kashmir?
When was the most recent census completed on the litracy and econommic situation in Gilgit by GoP? Do we have details on the ethnic compositions e.t.c.? I think GoP statistics should provide info on these.

Are there any local newspapers published from Gilgit or Kashmir in Pakistan the way you can find dozens in Indian Kashmir?

Donzens of blogs and local print.
here is a good example:
Dardistan Times, News from Gilgit,Baltistan and Chitral Areas Blog - Information, Comments, Reviews

When was the most recent census completed on the litracy and econommic situation in Gilgit by GoP?

According to a Pakistan Social and Living Standards Measurement (PSLM) Survey 2006-7:

According to a 1998 census, the adult literacy in Gilgit and Baltistan was about 38 per cent, which has now risen to 53 per cent in 2005-6 (males 64 per cent and females 41 per cent).

This figure is slightly higher than the national figure of 52 per cent in 2006-7 (PSLM, 2006-7). At present Gilgit and Baltistan have a system of education comprising about 2,100 schools or educational institutions, including schools set up by the Federal Government, community-based schools, schools set up by Aga Khan Education Services (AKES) and other NGOs.
Source: DAWN.COM | Education | Education in Gilgit and Baltistan

Do we have details on the ethnic compositions e.t.c.?

With almost 2 million inhabitants Gilgit-Baltistan is a very diverse region of Pakistan. The population of this new autonomous region is divided in 4 of the Islamic faith - Shia's constitute 35%, Sunnis 35%, Ismailis 25% and Noorbukshies are 5%. Gilgit Baltistan will have 24 constituents seats in the National Assembly plus 6 Women seats and 3 Technocrat seats.

Gilgit-Baltistan is divided into six districts called Hunza-Nager, Gilgit, Koh-e-Ghizer, Ghanche, Diamir and Skardu.

Population :
Gilgit-Baltistan population is very diverse. 35 per cent Shias, 35 per cent are Sunnis, 25 per cent Ismailis, and 5% Noorbukshies .

Ethnic Groups :
There are eight ethnic groups : Baltis, Yashkuns, Moghal, Kashmiris, Pathans, Laddakis and Turks.

Languages :

• The Shina language (with several dialects) is the language of 40% of the population, spoken mainly in Gilgit, throughout Diamer, and in some parts of Ghizer.
• Balti dialect, a sub-dialect of Ladakhi and part of Tibetan language group, is spoken by the entire population of Baltistan.
• Wakhi, spoken in upper Hunza, and in some villages in Ghizer.
• Khowar is the major language of Ghizer.
• Burushaski is an isolated language spoken in Hunza, Nagar, Yasin (where Khowar is also spoken), in some parts of Gilgit and in some villages of Punyal.
• Domaaki is spoken by the musician clans in the region.
• Pashto is also spoken by a small minority.

People who live in Gilgit Baltistan, despite that region's being referred to as part of Kashmir, do not speak Kashmiri or any of its dialects.

Sects and Religious diversity :
The four major religious sects are Sunnies, Shias, Ismailies and Noorbukshies. Sunnies are mostly in Daimer, Astore and Gilgit districts. The majority of Shias are in Skardu. Ganche Division has majority Nurbakhshi* (80%), Sunnis and Shias are evenly divided with 10%. The Ismalies are mostly in Ghizer district and in Hunza sub-division of Gilgit district.

Population Demographics :

Gilgit District :
Gilgit Capital :

Gilgit city and division – 60% Shia, 40% Sunni;,
Nagar II : 100% Ismaili
Nagar I : 100% Shia
Gojal : Sunni, Shia and Ismailis
Aliabad : Sunni, Shia and Ismailis

Ghizar :
Capital : Gahkuch

Hunza –100% Ismaili; ,
Punial – 100% Ismaili;
Yasin – 100% Ismaili;
Ishkoman –100% Ismaili;
Gupis – 100% Ismaili;

District Daimer :
Capital Chilas :

Chilas – 100% Sunni;
Darel/Tangir – 100% Sunni;

District Astore :

Astor – 90%Sunni, 10% Shia;

Baltistan – 55% Shia,20% Sunni, 25% Noorbukshies*
Divisions :

Shigar (Captial Skardu)
Rondu
Gultari : 45% Shias, 30% Sunni, 25% Noorbukshie*
Kharmang : 45% Shias, 30% Sunni, 25% Noorbukshie*

District Ganche :
Kaplu : 80 % Noorbukshies*, 10% Sunnis, 10% Shias
Mashabrum : 80 % Noorbukshies, 10% Sunnis, 10% Shias

Ethnic Run Down of the Gilgit-Baltistan area :
There are eight ethnic groups:
Baltis,
Yashkuns,
Moghal,
Kashmiris,
Pathans,
Laddakis and
Turks.


*(Noorbakshi : An order of Islamic Sufism. The core message of Nurbakhshism are complete elimination of all evil desires and immoralities of human nature from one’s self; total submission of one’s wills before God (by following the Qur'an Sunnah and Ahlibeit) and finally love and peace for the whole mankind. Nurbakhshis inhabit Baltistan and Ladakh regions of J&K, as well as a large number of Noorbakshis are native to Iran, Kurdistan and Central Asia.)

Source: Demographics of Pakistan., Muhammad Faizan Kamran (7/7/2009), PP. 20-24

 

[Hafizzz]

Did the previous poster say "INdian Journalist"?
Did you think 'Selig Harrison' is a common Indian name? DId you try Google? Heard of Google?
Here is the link to his bio, photo included......

Selig S. Harrison Biographic Sketch

Do you think Russell Peter is an Indian name ?

Russell Peters - Biography