PLA In The Last 50 Years: Just How Strong Is The Dragon?

[xiao qi]

You see the Indian can't beat Chinese in reality. And they sure come up with a lot of fantasy. Even the Vietnamese you brag gets a mauling from Chinese in last battle 1988.

The Russian can't beat the Chinese in 1969 that they resort to threaten to nuke China. Think about it, if Soviet are in the upperhand in 1969 border clash. Why would Soviet want to nuke China? Just like Japanese kamikaze attack which is desperate, shows the sight of defeat.

Is this a battle? Battle from one side with full-armed soldiers with one side unarmed soldiers. What a big victory! If you said the Chinese were not defeated in 1979 war, I may give you the respect, but give the battle to prove for the Chinese victory. So pitiful you are! You should search the battle of Laoshan, If you really want to show the Chinese victory.

 

[The Sandman]

New Delhi’s prime objective therefore should be to weaken Pakistan by supporting independence movements in Balochistan, Sindh and Khyber Pakthunkhwa.

The author is sure as hell living in a lala land.

 

[xiao qi]

They do what they are good at. Fighting unarmed civilians or ill prepared army. You see their fighting style is still old. Using sheer numbers like the huns, with not so great strategy. But whenever they fight a well prepared army they loose, and withdraw immediately once they starts to face minor losses.
I'm pretty sure, them Chinese withdrew immediately after PLA starts having causalities.


Ehm! That's sick for people who don't eat . But I might try them, cooked.

I will not underestimate Chinese soldiers. By their skill was improved so much after the Vietnamese- Sino War. We fought toughly with them in 1986 because they bought a system from the US Which can detect Where were our artillery ( Don't know how to call this). So we fought with no support from artillery. If you look down them, you will get consequence like they get consequence from Vietnamese. ( Chinese military expert usually think they are superior to Vietnamese and they are master than our so obviously they are false) For the Vietnamese food, I give more infor which is we cooked it, not eat raw

 

[xiao qi]

Nobody is under estimating Chinese. I just said, how they behave when it comes to a war. may be that has Changed, may be not. Only time will tell.

Yeah, I thought so.

Sure, No army is invincible

 

[desimorty]

This conjecture would've been a bit more believable had you not pulled your "data" from Wikipedia, which has changed much of the information regarding these conflicts quite dramatically over the past years. This is not to mention that the article on the 1967 Sino-Indian skirmish relied wholly on Indian claims.

Credible evidence exists of the skirmish, but for all arguments sake, I will say PLA does not publish articles on battles they have lost. Paksitani army does the same thing. Its a propaganda thing. This also makes it difficulte to learn anything from previous battles, if you deny your mistakes. Although I will admit, that the Indian side, glorified the event of 1967 perhaps as "good" war story to tell over the fire.

first if Indian army was not ready in 1962 then why did it attacked China????

Exactly my point. Chinese perspective India nibbled at their borders, which were ill defined and India started the war by invading Tibeten lands. Before 1962, Nehru was killing off the Indian army. The numbers were reduced to 200k mostly manning India's internal conflicts. This is recorded historical fact. So why did Nehru start a war? he didn't. Hindi-Chini bhai bhai was the slogan chanted between Mao and Nehru. 1962 was also the backdrop of the Cuban missile crises which almost ended the world. That timing was perfect, Mao had internal issues. Mao started the war, slapped Indian soldiers around and marched into N.E India. Before the Indian army could respond with force, the PLA decided to pull out and "give" back Arunachal Pradesh to India, even though they still claim it. Judging by the records, I'd assume the Chinese are hiding casualty figures. Most of the PLA casualties should have been do the extreme conditions. Not Indian bullets. All in all, it was perfect military victory, in PLA handbook. But...Arunachal Pradesh, is still Indian!? Only Mao would send soldiers to die in frigid wastelands to score a political victory. For him, Power came from the barrel of a gun. Obviously he didn't like Kung Fu movies.

second the great world war of 1967 is what only Indians know about. keeping in mind such clashes and consider then wars, Pakistan army fought more than 400 wars with India in last 2 years.

That was apparently a platoon level competition for rocks. When you get some Nepali Gurkhas and a Punjabi commander with ration medical alcohol, you'll have issues with violence sooner or later.

China lost all wars to a super power and its allies. Indians think they are soviet union.

China won an important fight against America in the Korean peninsula. However this was backed by the USSR.
China, never fought a war like India and Pakistan.
They did not deploy large tank columns or airforces in the numbers Pakistan and India did. India Pakistan, much to the worlds surprise fought a civilized war for brains and machines. No Indians or Pakistanis were sent to die with guns pointed at their backs. There was no flooding the enemy in waves of human soldiers, ill-equiped of trained. India and Pakistan used all their assets in short comprehensive wars with clear objectives backed by motorized infantry and technology both at land, sea and air. PLA has no such experience on this level. They learn't a lot from Vietnam and Korea conflicts but those wars were not pretty for China. They got some air force experience but I would not expect them to have much literature on successes in those wars.

 

[cnleio]

China’s threat that India would suffer a fate worse than the defeat of 1962 is laughable. For the Chinese have conveniently forgotten that since that conflict nearly 50 years ago, it is Beijing that has suffered defeats – at the hands of India, Russia and Vietnam in that order. In fact, the last time the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) faced off against the Indian Army, it had to endure the ignominy of a humiliating climb down.

But first, a reality check. The 1962 defeat happened because of two reasons. One, the Indian Army wasn’t given the weapons and divisions it had been wanting since the mid-1950s for the defence of the Himalayas. When the Chinese invaded, an entire Indian brigade (of at least 2,000 troops) was equipped with just 100 rounds of ammunition and no grenades. Prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru and his arrogant protégé, defence minister V K Krishna Menon, kept up the pretence that China would not attack.

Second, India’s armed forces were not allowed to fight to their full potential. Ignoring India’s commanders, Nehru conferred with American ambassador John Kenneth Galbraith, who advised the prime minister not to use the Indian Air Force against the Chinese intruders. Before the war, the Nehru-Menon duopoly had ended the career of Korean War hero General Thimayya – who saw the Chinese as a threat to India early. They later promoted Lt General B M Kaul and General Pran Nath Thapar. These officers did not know where the border was.

However, with the exit of both Nehru and Menon, the era of the neglect of the defence forces ended to some extent. The impressive showing of the Indian Army in the 1965 War with Pakistan restored some pride. Russian and American military supplies boosted military strength.

While evaluating the Chinese threat, the thing to note is that the India of 2017 is not the same as the India of 1962. Besides, the Chinese are not exactly known for their fighting skills. The PLA may be the world’s largest army, but it has performed atrociously in a series of major conflicts.. This article examines four of China’s post-1962 conflicts and how the PLA fared against well-armed and professional armies.

Year: 1967

Opponent: India

Conflict: Nathu La and Cho La

Result: Chinese defeat

Casualties: PLA 340, Indian Army 65

On 7 September 1967, a PLA commissar asked the soldiers of 18 Rajput to stop fencing the border at Nathu La – a border pass in Sikkim, which back then was an Indian protectorate. When the soldiers refused, the Chinese launched an artillery attack. Unlike in 1962, the Indian Army was prepared. It had placed howitzers at strategic locations aimed at Chinese military positions. The Indian guns launched a withering counter-attack that stopped only after three days. Indian gunners scored several direct hits on enemy bunkers, including a command post from where the Chinese operations were being directed.

On 13 September, India announced a unilateral ceasefire – a fitting reply to China’s offer almost to the week.

Smarting under their humiliation, the Chinese attacked a second time on 1 October at the nearby Cho La pass. This time it was the men of the Gorkha regiment who engaged in close-quarter combat, killing 40 elite Chinese commandos, resulting in a massive PLA rout. However, the Indian Army withheld fire on their retreating enemy. The defeated Chinese left Sikkim and withdrew three kilometres from the border. Since then, Nathu La and Cho La have been under Indian control, and China has never claimed these passes.

Year: 1969

Opponent: Russia

Conflict: Ussuri river clash

Result: Chinese defeat

Casualties: PLA 800, Soviet Army 61

At 4,380km, the Russia-China land border is the world’s longest. But since Tsarist times, it had been poorly demarcated, with both countries having overlapping claims over it. In the 1960s, following the ideological split between the two Communist allies, the border became a flash point with 658,000 Soviet soldiers facing a million PLA troops. In March 1969, 61 Soviet soldiers died in a Chinese ambush, and their corpses were mutilated. The Russians hit back so hard that, in the words of Robert Gates, Central Intelligence Agency director at the time, from American satellite pictures, the Chinese side of the river bank was pockmarked like a moonscape. The Chinese death toll: over 800, with thousands more injured.

The Chinese stab in the back made the Russians so angry that they seriously considered launching a nuclear attack. Washington secretly wanted someone to eliminate the Chinese for them but decided that a hostile China on Russia’s border would be good to keep Moscow on edge.

China survived, but it was so traumatised by the disproportionate Russian military response that it immediately started looking for a strategic alliance with the United States. The bottom line: the Russia-China border has remained peaceful ever since.

Year: 1979

Opponent: Vietnam

Conflict: Full-scale Chinese invasion

Result: Chinese defeat

Casualties: PLA up to 63,000, Vietnamese army 26,000

In 1978, the battle-hardened Peoples Army of Vietnam (PAVN) – which had only three years ago defeated the mighty Americans – launched an invasion on Cambodia. The invasion ended the genocide being committed by the US and China-backed Pol Pot regime, which had murdered two million of the country’s eight million population.

In order to “teach Hanoi a lesson”, the following year, a 200,000-strong Chinese force invaded Vietnam. (Interestingly, the invasion took place when India’s foreign minister Atal Behari Vajpayee was visiting Beijing.) In the 29-day war that ensued, the highly trained VAPN defeated the PLA, killing up to 63,000 Chinese soldiers and capturing hundreds more.

In his 1985 book, Defending China, Gerald Segal writes that China's 1979 war against Vietnam was a complete failure: “China failed to force a Vietnamese withdrawal from Cambodia, failed to end border clashes, failed to cast doubt on the strength of the Soviet power, failed to dispel the image of China as a paper tiger, and failed to draw the United States into an anti-Soviet coalition.”

After years of unsuccessful negotiations, a border pact was finally signed between the two countries in 1999.

Year: 1986-87

Opponent: India

Conflict: Sumdorong Chu standoff

Result: Chinese pullback

Dead: No casualties

The last time the India-China border came live was in 1986-87, when the cunning Chinese did a Kargil on India in Arunachal Pradesh. In 1984 and 1985, the Indian Army had set up camps in the border areas in summer and returned to the foothills in winter. When they went back in 1986, they found the PLA had crossed the Line of Actual Control (LAC) and set up a military camp in the pasture on the banks of the Sumdorong Chu river in Tawang district. Incidentally, this was close to the Thag La ridge, where the two armies had fought a bloody battle in 1962.

With the Chinese refusing to move back and “supreme leader” Deng Xiaoping declaring his intention to teach India “another lesson”, army chief General Krishnaswami Sundarji launched Operation Falcon, airlifting T-72 tanks and BMP-armoured personnel carriers to the area, occupying the high ridges overlooking the Chinese positions. It was the exact opposite of the 1962 situation when the Chinese had the higher ground. Both armies were eyeball to eyeball for seven years when in August 1995 the Chinese finally blinked. The Chinese knew if the two armies clashed, 1962 would be reversed.

Lonesome dragon

For decades, Beijing has pursued a strategy of boxing up India in South Asia so that New Delhi is unable to compete with it globally. According to strategist Subhash Kapila, “China is a compulsive destabiliser of South Asian regional stability and security, with the end aim of keeping India off-balance.”

China cannot attack India because India’s military is modern, large and highly professional. Plus, a war would kill the market for Chinese goods in India. Beijing will therefore continue to use Pakistan to keep India down. New Delhi’s prime objective therefore should be to weaken Pakistan by supporting independence movements in Balochistan, Sindh and Khyber Pakthunkhwa.

That, more than anything else, would demoralise the Chinese.

I don't wanna waste my any valuable time to reply such low-level thread from India, just post some pics here from U.S President Trump point to western media:"Shut up, You'r fake news !!!"

 

[Götterdämmerung]

China’s threat that India would suffer a fate worse than the defeat of 1962 is laughable. For the Chinese have conveniently forgotten that since that conflict nearly 50 years ago, it is Beijing that has suffered defeats – at the hands of India, Russia and Vietnam in that order. In fact, the last time the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) faced off against the Indian Army, it had to endure the ignominy of a humiliating climb down.

But first, a reality check. The 1962 defeat happened because of two reasons. One, the Indian Army wasn’t given the weapons and divisions it had been wanting since the mid-1950s for the defence of the Himalayas. When the Chinese invaded, an entire Indian brigade (of at least 2,000 troops) was equipped with just 100 rounds of ammunition and no grenades. Prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru and his arrogant protégé, defence minister V K Krishna Menon, kept up the pretence that China would not attack.

Second, India’s armed forces were not allowed to fight to their full potential. Ignoring India’s commanders, Nehru conferred with American ambassador John Kenneth Galbraith, who advised the prime minister not to use the Indian Air Force against the Chinese intruders. Before the war, the Nehru-Menon duopoly had ended the career of Korean War hero General Thimayya – who saw the Chinese as a threat to India early. They later promoted Lt General B M Kaul and General Pran Nath Thapar. These officers did not know where the border was.

However, with the exit of both Nehru and Menon, the era of the neglect of the defence forces ended to some extent. The impressive showing of the Indian Army in the 1965 War with Pakistan restored some pride. Russian and American military supplies boosted military strength.

While evaluating the Chinese threat, the thing to note is that the India of 2017 is not the same as the India of 1962. Besides, the Chinese are not exactly known for their fighting skills. The PLA may be the world’s largest army, but it has performed atrociously in a series of major conflicts.. This article examines four of China’s post-1962 conflicts and how the PLA fared against well-armed and professional armies.

Year: 1967

Opponent: India

Conflict: Nathu La and Cho La

Result: Chinese defeat

Casualties: PLA 340, Indian Army 65

On 7 September 1967, a PLA commissar asked the soldiers of 18 Rajput to stop fencing the border at Nathu La – a border pass in Sikkim, which back then was an Indian protectorate. When the soldiers refused, the Chinese launched an artillery attack. Unlike in 1962, the Indian Army was prepared. It had placed howitzers at strategic locations aimed at Chinese military positions. The Indian guns launched a withering counter-attack that stopped only after three days. Indian gunners scored several direct hits on enemy bunkers, including a command post from where the Chinese operations were being directed.

On 13 September, India announced a unilateral ceasefire – a fitting reply to China’s offer almost to the week.

Smarting under their humiliation, the Chinese attacked a second time on 1 October at the nearby Cho La pass. This time it was the men of the Gorkha regiment who engaged in close-quarter combat, killing 40 elite Chinese commandos, resulting in a massive PLA rout. However, the Indian Army withheld fire on their retreating enemy. The defeated Chinese left Sikkim and withdrew three kilometres from the border. Since then, Nathu La and Cho La have been under Indian control, and China has never claimed these passes.

Year: 1969

Opponent: Russia

Conflict: Ussuri river clash

Result: Chinese defeat

Casualties: PLA 800, Soviet Army 61

At 4,380km, the Russia-China land border is the world’s longest. But since Tsarist times, it had been poorly demarcated, with both countries having overlapping claims over it. In the 1960s, following the ideological split between the two Communist allies, the border became a flash point with 658,000 Soviet soldiers facing a million PLA troops. In March 1969, 61 Soviet soldiers died in a Chinese ambush, and their corpses were mutilated. The Russians hit back so hard that, in the words of Robert Gates, Central Intelligence Agency director at the time, from American satellite pictures, the Chinese side of the river bank was pockmarked like a moonscape. The Chinese death toll: over 800, with thousands more injured.

The Chinese stab in the back made the Russians so angry that they seriously considered launching a nuclear attack. Washington secretly wanted someone to eliminate the Chinese for them but decided that a hostile China on Russia’s border would be good to keep Moscow on edge.

China survived, but it was so traumatised by the disproportionate Russian military response that it immediately started looking for a strategic alliance with the United States. The bottom line: the Russia-China border has remained peaceful ever since.

Year: 1979

Opponent: Vietnam

Conflict: Full-scale Chinese invasion

Result: Chinese defeat

Casualties: PLA up to 63,000, Vietnamese army 26,000

In 1978, the battle-hardened Peoples Army of Vietnam (PAVN) – which had only three years ago defeated the mighty Americans – launched an invasion on Cambodia. The invasion ended the genocide being committed by the US and China-backed Pol Pot regime, which had murdered two million of the country’s eight million population.

In order to “teach Hanoi a lesson”, the following year, a 200,000-strong Chinese force invaded Vietnam. (Interestingly, the invasion took place when India’s foreign minister Atal Behari Vajpayee was visiting Beijing.) In the 29-day war that ensued, the highly trained VAPN defeated the PLA, killing up to 63,000 Chinese soldiers and capturing hundreds more.

In his 1985 book, Defending China, Gerald Segal writes that China's 1979 war against Vietnam was a complete failure: “China failed to force a Vietnamese withdrawal from Cambodia, failed to end border clashes, failed to cast doubt on the strength of the Soviet power, failed to dispel the image of China as a paper tiger, and failed to draw the United States into an anti-Soviet coalition.”

After years of unsuccessful negotiations, a border pact was finally signed between the two countries in 1999.

Year: 1986-87

Opponent: India

Conflict: Sumdorong Chu standoff

Result: Chinese pullback

Dead: No casualties

The last time the India-China border came live was in 1986-87, when the cunning Chinese did a Kargil on India in Arunachal Pradesh. In 1984 and 1985, the Indian Army had set up camps in the border areas in summer and returned to the foothills in winter. When they went back in 1986, they found the PLA had crossed the Line of Actual Control (LAC) and set up a military camp in the pasture on the banks of the Sumdorong Chu river in Tawang district. Incidentally, this was close to the Thag La ridge, where the two armies had fought a bloody battle in 1962.

With the Chinese refusing to move back and “supreme leader” Deng Xiaoping declaring his intention to teach India “another lesson”, army chief General Krishnaswami Sundarji launched Operation Falcon, airlifting T-72 tanks and BMP-armoured personnel carriers to the area, occupying the high ridges overlooking the Chinese positions. It was the exact opposite of the 1962 situation when the Chinese had the higher ground. Both armies were eyeball to eyeball for seven years when in August 1995 the Chinese finally blinked. The Chinese knew if the two armies clashed, 1962 would be reversed.

Lonesome dragon

For decades, Beijing has pursued a strategy of boxing up India in South Asia so that New Delhi is unable to compete with it globally. According to strategist Subhash Kapila, “China is a compulsive destabiliser of South Asian regional stability and security, with the end aim of keeping India off-balance.”

China cannot attack India because India’s military is modern, large and highly professional. Plus, a war would kill the market for Chinese goods in India. Beijing will therefore continue to use Pakistan to keep India down. New Delhi’s prime objective therefore should be to weaken Pakistan by supporting independence movements in Balochistan, Sindh and Khyber Pakthunkhwa.

That, more than anything else, would demoralise the Chinese.

I couldn't find anything about the Nathu La incident in German, French and practically any other important European languages with the exception of English. I think Indians are not well versed in other European languages to write their own fake history in German, French, Spanish or Italian. The funny thing is, there is a small entry in Lithuanian and we have an Indian Nazi member here in this forum who happens to live in Lithuania.

 

[+4vsgorillas-Apebane]

The Chola incident is something the Indians made up. Or rather they inflated it from a tiny border tussle that happened back in 1967. Its actually a recent phenomena, the PLA casualties seem to rise with each Indian revision of the event. Back in the early 2000s, the casualties were less than 10.

Chola incident. Or was it the Indian Cholera incident bought about by unsanitary water? I can imagine hundreds of PLA dying of Cholera once entering Indian slum territory.

 

[DragonHunter]

not powerful than my Lebra dog.

 

[faithfulguy]

I couldn't find anything about the Nathu La incident in German, French and practically any other important European languages with the exception of English. I think Indians are not well versed in other European languages to write their own fake history in German, French, Spanish or Italian. The funny thing is, there is a small entry in Lithuanian and we have an Indian Nazi member here in this forum who happens to live in Lithuania.

India was colonized by England, not France or Germans. So Indian war victories are language specific.

 

[rcrmj]

poor creatures, the only means for them to survive is self-created lala land````these things have no concept of honesty and integrity

 

[terranMarine]

The PLA is quite weak we all know that so weak that when China warned US not to touch DPRK Obama simply obeyed and Trump after fuming "TIME IS UP", Tillerson told DPRK on a recent press conference: "Look we are not your enemy, we just wanna talk things out" oh and we also don't blame China for this problem either"

 

[Zsari]

This conjecture would've been a bit more believable had you not pulled your "data" from Wikipedia, which has changed much of the information regarding these conflicts quite dramatically over the past years. This is not to mention that the article on the 1967 Sino-Indian skirmish relied wholly on Indian claims.

Actually even the Wikipedia number doesn't reflect the wild Indian claim. And looking at both side's causality, one will find that the Chinese claim matches up with India's report much more closely, which gives it a far better credibility. Overall, the two skirmishes were primarily artillery duel without actual ground gains which means the estimates can be wildly inaccurate.

Indian causalities:
Indian sources:
88 killed
163 wounded in Cho La and the Nathu La incidents combined
Chinese sources:
65 killed in the Nathu La incident
36 killed in the Cho La incident

Chinese causalities:
Chinese sources:
32 killed in the Nathu La incident
'unknown' in the Cho La incident
Indian sources:
340 killed
450 wounded in Cho La and Nathu La incidents combined

 

[IblinI]

Casualties: PLA up to 63,000, Vietnamese army 26,000

The Chinese held 1,636 Vietnamese prisoners and the Vietnamese held 238 Chinese prisoners; they were exchanged in May–June 1979.
Nice fancy figure you got there, are you mocking our Vietnam friends indirectly?

Casualties: PLA 800, Soviet Army 61. The Chinese death toll: over 800, with thousands more injured.

You really made me laugh, both side has no official report on the actual casualties, but for god' sake, it was a platoon/company level border clash.

 

[Jlaw]

I couldn't find anything about the Nathu La incident in German, French and practically any other important European languages with the exception of English. I think Indians are not well versed in other European languages to write their own fake history in German, French, Spanish or Italian. The funny thing is, there is a small entry in Lithuanian and we have an Indian Nazi member here in this forum who happens to live in Lithuania.

An Indian Nazi? Would real aryan German accept that? Stormfront forum treat Indians worse than blacks.