PL-15 export version data officially released by China

[Pak Nationalist]

145 KM in itself is a fantastic range for an AAM, but It’s not just about the range. It is about the missile to meet those ranges with more probability. What you want is a missile with a higher probability of kill, not just an extended range because the previous generation of missiles too had long ranges but their performance would severely degrade if the target was to defensively react. And that's where Meteor and PL15 will be entirely different from any previous-gen weapon system.

What is your reason for putting PL-15 in the same league as Meteor? Any technical reason?

 

[kursed]

What is your reason for putting PL-15 in the same league as Meteor? Any technical reason?

The point was to compare both PL-15 and Meteor with the previous generations of AAMs.

 

[Pak Nationalist]

145km is based on what parameters?
Is it nose on, is it at 10k ft or 25k ft?
Is it with launch aircraft doing 300knots at 5000ft or Mach 1.1 at 35000?

At best those are nominal performance values which are then cut down for public consumption. When units are sold there is a strict NDA (Non-disclosure agreement) signed that also involves intel agencies(or equal therof) from both countries after which actual performance parameters are disclosed and even then those aren’t fully released until a contract is signed.
The PL-15 was designed to outdo the AIM-120Ds published range - not what the AIM-120D can actually do because that is closely guarded Opsec as is the PL-15s actual max performance.

Those concentrating on the PL-15 should look at the other aspects of it -
Duplex link for constant updates along with Beidou positioning means that within the good WEZ of this system it will kill the target aircraft no matter what.

Are there any estimates of NEZ with this range for PL-15?

 

[Rafi]

True Range is classified, the publicly realised ranges.....tale with a pinch of salt......nuff said.

 

[Goenitz]

New cocktail of chemicals, that burns hotter yet slower.
Some European paper a few years ago touted this Chinese New rocket propellant having 20-22% more energy density and improved temperatures.
Higher the combustion temperatures, more the gasses expand while coming out of Rocket nozzle and thus better thrust.

@JamD what about technology miniaturisation? so all added weight goes to propellent.. unless we know propellent weight we can't be definite. i am also no expert but having a fuel with 22% more energy density than previous fuels, seems unrealistic to me as the propellent tech reached its plateau long ago. That difference can easily make a 2 gen gap between propellant tech.

Smaller electronics will give more space for fuel

I also think the same. is the missile body of both systems the same? or one is composite and the other being metallic?

 

[siegecrossbow]

Can anyone respond to this query?

You’d be hard pressed to hit a maneuvering target at greater than 100KM. My guess is that the range is against non-maneuvering target at higher altitude.

 

[Trailer23]

Now China claims it to be 145 so it should be around 100 km at its best.

Great, do tell Abhi to pack properly this time when he comes to visit Pakistan. We'll use him as a testbed.

India's SFDR missile with 340 km range is under testing.

Brilliant. Since you guys are so far ahead of the rest in tech, by leaving the AMRAAM behind. With the kind of range you're bragging about - you don't need the MBDA Meteor.

 

[Pappa Alpha]

Great, do tell Abhi to pack properly this time when he comes to visit Pakistan. We'll use him as a testbed.

Brilliant. Since you guys are so far ahead of the rest in tech, by leaving the AMRAAM behind. With the kind of range you're bragging about - you don't need the MBDA Meteor.

LCA ke baad ab Babus 300+ km air to air mijjiles bnain gay

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

PL-15 is Chinese counterpart of AIM-260.

 

[Engima Chaudhry]

AIM-120D published range is >160km. PL-15 Export range is claimed as 145km. Take what you will but these are all around double the BVR missiles like early R-77 and Aim-120 and PL-12 and so on.

What I'm trying to say is that PL-15 I constantly said in the past as 150km to tell people here that it is not 300km.

Some Pakistani memebrs in the past CONSTANTLY say 300km 300km 300km. And cheap Indians come out to say look it is 150km. This is not the PL-15's fault since it has always been a BVR missile of 2010 to 2020 era when it started service. Around the same as modern equivalents introduced in that time.

145km range indicated for export model is certainly going to be minimum as well. They will never announce real range of PLAAF PL-15 just like USAF will never say real range of AIM-120D.

There are just stupid and confused memebrs on this forum who have constantly been saying the word 300km for PL-15 and as much as some good members correct them, many realize but some still say 300km.

300km for a BVR missile is unrealistically long.

And Surya being the cheap Indian who will use this Pakistani member errors of claiming 300km for a BVR missile is going low to say look you said 300km and it's 150km. Not caring he is just taking incorrect information which was only promoted by clueless memebrs and then measuring PL-15 against that impossible number.

PL-15 from day 1 hinted range was around 150km. This is even for PLAAF used ones but 150km is assuming as minimum range just like cruise missile range even though CJ-10 can go far further than 2000km is still specification wise stated as >1500km.

That means a NEZ of around 70 km. Though NEZ is not a reliable metric, but a rough one. But that's quite a bit of real estate . Good enough . ---- 70 km , as the crow flies.
An improvement of 20 km on 50km NEZ( half of 105 km Amraam 120c5).
" a cup of tea served 20 additional clicks further : an exquisitely demonstrable display of hospitality, should I say".

 

[siegecrossbow]

That means a NEZ of around 70 km. Though NEZ is not a reliable metric, but a rough one. But that's quite a bit of real estate . Good enough . ---- 70 km , as the crow flies.
An improvement of 20 km on 50km NEZ( half of 105 km Amraam 120c5).
" a cup of tea served 20 additional clicks further : an exquisitely demonstrable display of hospitality, should I say".

NEZ also changes based on the relative velocity, bearing, and altitude of the target. 70 KM is probably for optimal conditions.

 

[Engima Chaudhry]

NEZ also changes based on the relative velocity, bearing, and altitude of the target. 70 KM is probably for optimal conditions.

Agreed..

 

[SQ8]

Are there any estimates of NEZ with this range for PL-15?

NEZ is the distance where missiles will reach and over take target no matter what the aspect angle of it . It doesnt mean missiles will hit , it just means the aircraft will have to defeat missiles by maneuver rather than turning and run away.

There really cannot be said for the PL-15 since we dont know the specific impulse of the motor and the altitude at which one is guessing it.
The aim-120A has a NEZ of 25km at altitude and 10km at sea level.
Lets compare to a known chest thumper on NEZ superiority known as meteor.
The meteor’s advantage comes in at maintaining range at low to medium altitudes where its oxygen needing Ramjets give it more powered flight time which allows it to “guarantee” NEZ. Once its motor runs out the inherent drag of intakes and added weight will basically make it fall like a rock compared to a more aerodynamically refined Amraam or PL-15 but the intelligence in engine and fuel management are worked into the meteor to allow it to keep energy for end game maneuvering.

At high altitudes where the air is thin it can even be outranged by the aim-120C5 depending upon launch platform speed and target aspect angle. That is because the meteor doesn’t loft as quickly like the AIM-120 as its ramjet cannot provide the necessary acceleration to push it into a loft trajectory as fast without seriously compromising range. Also, the Aim-120 or PL-15 will be a very light missile once its booster runs out and capable of much tighter maneuvers compared to the meteor which has to do fuel management as well over the course of its flight. Where the meteor does have advantages is its lifting body design that allows good maneuvering at high altitudes.

When an Amraam C+ or Pl-12 or 15 comes down its carrying with it all the potential and kinetic energy so that NEZ is now also being converted to Pk even after the motor runs out.

Two different NEZ philosophies but so far only the Amraam has been battle tested and proven.

There are advantages to each approach but it all depends on the advances in efficient propellant for rockets and weight of ramjets.

What the Pl-15 does is outstick the meteor and keeps the PAF with first look, first shoot unlike the still in development Indian indigenous projects.

And if they do manage to outstick the PL-15, what the Chinese have in development next will push them back again. Why? Because the Chinese are targeting the Americans as an enemy that is on a much much higher technological plane than the Indians will ever be in the next 40 years.

Finally, regarding the Meteor and certain odd scenarios. In case a PAF fighter encounters a meteor equipped fighter at very close range and all they have is MRAAMs and is asked to engage.. it can shoot off either the SD-10, Aim-120 and PL-15 if need be off boresight and they will maneuver at very high G’s to get that target. The meteor however is pretty useless at close range as its booster works to get it up to speed.

 

[Song Hong]

Aircraft in theory can escape any missile if they do a cobra. What is the RCX of AAM? Anyone got answer?

Anyway I am not an expert in this.

 

[Engima Chaudhry]

NEZ is the distance where missiles will reach and over take target no matter what the aspect angle of it . It doesnt mean missiles will hit , it just means the aircraft will have to defeat missiles by maneuver rather than turning and run away.

There really cannot be said for the PL-15 since we dont know the specific impulse of the motor and the altitude at which one is guessing it.
The aim-120A has a NEZ of 25km at altitude and 10km at sea level.
Lets compare to a known chest thumper on NEZ superiority known as meteor.
The meteor’s advantage comes in at maintaining range at low to medium altitudes where its oxygen needing Ramjets give it more powered flight time which allows it to “guarantee” NEZ. Once its motor runs out the inherent drag of intakes and added weight will basically make it fall like a rock compared to a more aerodynamically refined Amraam or PL-15 but the intelligence in engine and fuel management are worked into the meteor to allow it to keep energy for end game maneuvering.

At high altitudes where the air is thin it can even be outranged by the aim-120C5 depending upon launch platform speed and target aspect angle. That is because the meteor doesn’t loft as quickly like the AIM-120 as its ramjet cannot provide the necessary acceleration to push it into a loft trajectory as fast without seriously compromising range. Also, the Aim-120 or PL-15 will be a very light missile once its booster runs out and capable of much tighter maneuvers compared to the meteor which has to do fuel management as well over the course of its flight. Where the meteor does have advantages is its lifting body design that allows good maneuvering at high altitudes.

When an Amraam C+ or Pl-12 or 15 comes down its carrying with it all the potential and kinetic energy so that NEZ is now also being converted to Pk even after the motor runs out.

Two different NEZ philosophies but so far only the Amraam has been battle tested and proven.

There are advantages to each approach but it all depends on the advances in efficient propellant for rockets and weight of ramjets.

What the Pl-15 does is outstick the meteor and keeps the PAF with first look, first shoot unlike the still in development Indian indigenous projects.

And if they do manage to outstick the PL-15, what the Chinese have in development next will push them back again. Why? Because the Chinese are targeting the Americans as an enemy that is on a much much higher technological plane than the Indians will ever be in the next 40 years.

Finally, regarding the Meteor and certain odd scenarios. In case a PAF fighter encounters a meteor equipped fighter at very close range and all they have is MRAAMs and is asked to engage.. it can shoot off either the SD-10, Aim-120 and PL-15 if need be off boresight and they will maneuver at very high G’s to get that target. The meteor however is pretty useless at close range as its booster works to get it up to speed.

Thanks, quite informative.