Philippine Navy Procures BrahMos Anti-Ship Missile System

[serenity]

Russian sale to Phillipines would have triggered CAATSA but Brahmos sale wont since Russia has only a minority stake in it.


What is the return policy on items you buy from China?

Nepal recently got stuck with few worthless planes purchased from China

Nepal Airlines to lease out grounded Chinese planes

The six aircraft were pulled out of service nearly a year ago because they were more trouble than they were worth.

kathmandupost.com

The links says there is nothing wrong with the Chinese aircraft they purchased. They purchased the cheapest they could find on the market and what they have is a business management problem. It says in the article that the BUSINESS couldn't bring in more money than the aircrafts require in maintenance.

That's not the aircrafts fault but the business management lol. The writer makes it seem like an aircraft is asking customers to come for a ride. Sorry the aircraft's functions do not include calling customers to book holidays. That's the business' responsibility.

Even says here

So if you read the whole thing there were no issues with the aircraft lol. It was no pilots, can't buy spares and parts and no engineers to maintain them. None of it says the aircrafts broke like Indian Dhruv. All the business management failures.

Even if they bought some cheap Cessna aircraft, Cessna also require the business to spend money on parts, maintenance, engineers, and pilots. That's not Cessna's fault if the business that bought the Cessnas does not know how to manage the business and the funds. It's also not the fault of the aircraft that the business can't attract customers.

Of course indian mentality is if indian restaurant isn't successful, it is the stove's fault or the shop door's fault even when the stove and the door work fine. Blame it on something else always... pure india.

Meanwhile REAL problems with the actual machine in question and not the operator.

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/1...a_s_Hindustan_Aeronautics__Dhruv__Helicopters

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...since-2002-parliament-told/article8327755.ece

https://inshorts.com/en/news/maldives-returns-dhruv-helicopter-gifted-by-india-1522819637526

 

[pc_alt]

The links says there is nothing wrong with the Chinese aircraft they purchased. They purchased the cheapest they could find on the market and what they have is a business management problem. It says in the article that the BUSINESS couldn't bring in more money than the aircrafts require in maintenance.

That's not the aircrafts fault but the business management lol. The writer makes it seem like an aircraft is asking customers to come for a ride. Sorry the aircraft's functions do not include calling customers to book holidays. That's the business' responsibility.

Even says here

View attachment 811726

So if you read the whole thing there were no issues with the aircraft lol. It was no pilots, can't buy spares and parts and no engineers to maintain them. None of it says the aircrafts broke like Indian Dhruv. All the business management failures.

Even if they bought some cheap Cessna aircraft, Cessna also require the business to spend money on parts, maintenance, engineers, and pilots. That's not Cessna's fault if the business that bought the Cessnas does not know how to manage the business and the funds. It's also not the fault of the aircraft that the business can't attract customers.

Of course indian mentality is if indian restaurant isn't successful, it is the stove's fault or the shop door's fault even when the stove and the door work fine. Blame it on something else always... pure india.

Meanwhile REAL problems with the actual machine in question and not the operator.

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/1...a_s_Hindustan_Aeronautics__Dhruv__Helicopters

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...since-2002-parliament-told/article8327755.ece

https://inshorts.com/en/news/maldives-returns-dhruv-helicopter-gifted-by-india-1522819637526

If you want to create a good brand, you ensure good after sales service as well. In this case, it seems China sold the planes but did not take care of after sales needs such as spare parts, instructor pilots etc

 

[serenity]

If you want to create a good brand, you ensure good after sales service as well. In this case, it seems China sold the planes but did not take care of after sales needs such as spare parts, instructor pilots etc

Maybe but we really don't know the details do we. Maybe they agreed to sell second hand old and very basic aircraft whatever that is I don't even know lol. And for even more discounted prices, the business has to buy parts, and the business has to hire a pilot who is trained on this obscure aircraft.

I don't see why that Nepal operator would expect the maker to find pilots for their business. I mean Boeing and Airbus don't supply airlines with pilots. They have training programs for businesses that train pilots for their aircraft. It is up to the airline to hire those pilots. So the details here matter but at least we can say the issues isn't with the aircraft itself but those side issues.

Maybe along with those operator side problems, the aircraft maker is also a crappy businessman as well and like you said didn't want to provide after sales service. He probably thought the price is being sold at low profit lol so who knows. Either way not the aircraft at fault. One sided business problem or combination of both businesses contributing to situation which is relatively minor. Some limousine service businesses buy a fleet of BMW 7 series in the past and then the business struggles and can't afford service costs of the BMWs. The business sells the cars. Happens all the time everywhere. Don't know how this is news or how it reflects badly on the aircraft itself.

 

[pc_alt]

Maybe but we really don't know the details do we. Maybe they agreed to sell second hand old and very basic aircraft whatever that is I don't even know lol. And for even more discounted prices, the business has to buy parts, and the business has to hire a pilot who is trained on this obscure aircraft.

I don't see why that Nepal operator would expect the maker to find pilots for their business. I mean Boeing and Airbus don't supply airlines with pilots. They have training programs for businesses that train pilots for their aircraft. It is up to the airline to hire those pilots. So the details here matter but at least we can say the issues isn't with the aircraft itself but those side issues.

Maybe along with those operator side problems, the aircraft maker is also a crappy businessman as well and like you said didn't want to provide after sales service. He probably thought the price is being sold at low profit lol so who knows. Either way not the aircraft at fault. One sided business problem or combination of both businesses contributing to situation which is relatively minor. Some limousine service businesses buy a fleet of BMW 7 series in the past and then the business struggles and can't afford service costs of the BMWs. The business sells the cars. Happens all the time everywhere. Don't know how this is news or how it reflects badly on the aircraft itself.

I am not saying it reflects badly on the aircraft, however it reflects badly on the deal with a Chinese firm. This makes other potential purchasers of Chinese planes wary.
Airbus and Boeing are established players. When a new player tries to enter a market, it needs to ensure that surrounding infrastructure is there to support it. Else it will just become a one-time sale with no repeat orders.

 

[serenity]

I am not saying it reflects badly on the aircraft, however it reflects badly on the deal with a Chinese firm. This makes other potential purchasers of Chinese planes wary.
Airbus and Boeing are established players. When a new player tries to enter a market, it needs to ensure that surrounding infrastructure is there to support it. Else it will just become a one-time sale with no repeat orders.

Yeah and this isn't supplying a major airliner like Airbus and Boeing. They are different situations.

Okay sure those potential customers can be weary if they want to be. It is up to them. If they want to use that example as a judgement rather than big ticket items having hundreds of professionals working out every minor detail and buying whatever that thing is is different to buying an airliner for example an ARJ-21 or C-919 in future. They can definitely be weary and all businessmen are at least who are good ones.

I would certainly agree with you only in the case of another similar positions holiday company like that one of Nepal, being so poorly managed and short on funds and customers, looking to buy that exact aircraft from the same business (not all Chinese businesses are operated the same just like there is a difference between Dodge cars and Lockheed Martin or SpaceX and Mcdonalds) then yes that customer ought to be more weary... hopefully more weary of how they're managing their own business first because it seems like that Nepal operator couldn't get customers and had no money for maintenance. If he was using Cessna or Bombardier luxury private jets, he would be in a similar problem of not being able to afford the maintenance and finding a pilot (probably for paying for one).

The article pinned the entire fault on the Chinese side despite it being clear and even admitted by the author that all the problems were with the Nepalese operator.

Also in your post you use one example on the entire Chinese country and all businesses of it. So how about Dhruv example then? Does that mean every single Indian business is going to be screwing customers like Dhruv sales? Use one example of one business/entity in one singular trade. If that is negative, then all negative. This is your logic after all.

Some small random China supplier sells mcdonalds with $0.02 happy meal toys (supply cost maybe) and some Chinese shipbuilder sells billions of dollars worth of LNG ships.

https://lngprime.com/asia/bp-inks-long-term-lng-supply-deal-in-china/24306/

So how to apply that "logic".

 

[pc_alt]

Yeah and this isn't supplying a major airliner like Airbus and Boeing. They are different situations.

Okay sure those potential customers can be weary if they want to be. It is up to them. If they want to use that example as a judgement rather than big ticket items having hundreds of professionals working out every minor detail and buying whatever that thing is is different to buying an airliner for example an ARJ-21 or C-919 in future. They can definitely be weary and all businessmen are at least who are good ones.

I would certainly agree with you only in the case of another similar positions holiday company like that one of Nepal, being so poorly managed and short on funds and customers, looking to buy that exact aircraft from the same business (not all Chinese businesses are operated the same just like there is a difference between Dodge cars and Lockheed Martin or SpaceX and Mcdonalds) then yes that customer ought to be more weary... hopefully more weary of how they're managing their own business first because it seems like that Nepal operator couldn't get customers and had no money for maintenance. If he was using Cessna or Bombardier luxury private jets, he would be in a similar problem of not being able to afford the maintenance and finding a pilot (probably for paying for one).

The article pinned the entire fault on the Chinese side despite it being clear and even admitted by the author that all the problems were with the Nepalese operator.

Also in your post you use one example on the entire Chinese country and all businesses of it. So how about Dhruv example then? Does that mean every single Indian business is going to be screwing customers like Dhruv sales? Use one example of one business/entity in one singular trade. If that is negative, then all negative. This is your logic after all.

Some small random China supplier sells mcdonalds with $0.02 happy meal toys (supply cost maybe) and some Chinese shipbuilder sells billions of dollars worth of LNG ships.

https://lngprime.com/asia/bp-inks-long-term-lng-supply-deal-in-china/24306/

So how to apply that "logic".

Nepal Airlines is still functioning through other planes, so something went wrong only with Chinese plane acquisition.
Agreed that it may not necessarily reflect on overall Chinese business practice but such instances do add up over time to create an image about China. For eg, in subcontinent including Pakistan, Chinese products have an image of 'cheap but substandard'.

You talk of Dhruv. What happened with it. Can you share?

 

[Saudang]

Oh yes...forgot...single cell brain ...the Chinese won't fire back...genius

comments like these get created when u try to use something that you dont have..

 

[serenity]

Nepal Airlines is still functioning through other planes, so something went wrong only with Chinese plane acquisition.
Agreed that it may not necessarily reflect on overall Chinese business practice but such instances do add up over time to create an image about China. For eg, in subcontinent including Pakistan, Chinese products have an image of 'cheap but substandard'.

You talk of Dhruv. What happened with it. Can you share?

I shared those links related to Dhruvs crashing, breaking, malfunctioning, and generally the machine itself being so poor it was returned. See page one for those links or Google it.

As for you saying something went wrong with the Chinese plane acquisition, you admit that the plane itself was not an issue but the availability of pilots, ability for buying spare parts and maintenance. Basically all business side issues.

Yes I think the customer should consider the sell agreements carefully on things like pilot training and ability to hire a pilot. Things of that nature. They should also assess the conditions carefully.

Those aircraft (at least one or some) were apparently donated by China. Maintenance, pilot fees etc of course is up to Nepal Airlines.

So basically the aircraft were faultless. Operator (Nepal airlines) was cashstrapped and couldn't afford parts, maintenance and pilots trained specifically for these aircraft.

 

[pc_alt]

I shared those links related to Dhruvs crashing, breaking, malfunctioning, and generally the machine itself being so poor it was returned. See page one for those links or Google it.

As for you saying something went wrong with the Chinese plane acquisition, you admit that the plane itself was not an issue but the availability of pilots, ability for buying spare parts and maintenance. Basically all business side issues.

Yes I think the customer should consider the sell agreements carefully on things like pilot training and ability to hire a pilot. Things of that nature. They should also assess the conditions carefully.

View attachment 811741

Those aircraft (at least one or some) were apparently donated by China. Maintenance, pilot fees etc of course is up to Nepal Airlines.

View attachment 811743


So basically the aircraft were faultless. Operator (Nepal airlines) was cashstrapped and couldn't afford parts, maintenance and pilots trained specifically for these aircraft.

Business is overall and not just the product.
What other orders for Chinese planes did you get ?
Dhruv is still getting orders so clearly they sorted out the issues and improved its business.

You are saying the planes were donated but then also pointing out that airlines need to pay back interest to China.

 

[serenity]

Business is overall and not just the product.
What other orders for Chinese planes did you get ?
Dhruv is still getting orders so clearly they sorted out the issues and improved its business.

You are saying the planes were donated but then also pointing out that airlines need to pay back interest to China.

Chinese helicopters also get orders. Why are you comparing civil aviation with your Dhruv helicopter. India has Z.E.R.O civil aviation product and made nothing.

Contracting doesn't mean much since we all contract for big names.

What orders have Chinese civil aviation planes gotten? Keep in mind civil aviation to China is new.

In time C-919 is going to be ready.

Already there's 10 ordered by GE Capital.

Give it years of service and hopefully more foreign customers.

At least this is more than India. In fact this is monumentally more and India will not be in this spot even in 2050.

As for military aircraft exports... well since 1970s export orders won.

 

[pc_alt]

Chinese helicopters also get orders. Why are you comparing civil aviation with your Dhruv helicopter. India has Z.E.R.O civil aviation product and made nothing.

Contracting doesn't mean much since we all contract for big names.

What orders have Chinese civil aviation planes gotten? Keep in mind civil aviation to China is new.

View attachment 811745

In time C-919 is going to be ready.

Already there's 10 ordered by GE Capital.

View attachment 811746

Give it years of service and hopefully more foreign customers.

At least this is more than India. In fact this is monumentally more and India will not be in this spot even in 2050.

As for military aircraft exports... well since 1970s export orders won.

See Dhruv's order book outside India

 

[serenity]

See Dhruv's order book outside India

View attachment 811747

That's very nice. Dhruv has customers I'm sure. When you wrote about the returning of the Nepal Airlines aircraft, you made it seem like the machine was the problem when it wasn't. The article itself makes that more than clear.

So I made the point to show you Dhruv has actual issues causing customers to return it due to the Dhruv itself.

From the link I shared in the first page.

 

[pc_alt]

That's very nice. Dhruv has customers I'm sure. When you wrote about the returning of the Nepal Airlines aircraft, you made it seem like the machine was the problem when it wasn't. The article itself makes that more than clear.

So I made the point to show you Dhruv has actual issues causing customers to return it due to the Dhruv itself.

View attachment 811748

View attachment 811749

From the link I shared in the first page.

Maldives returning a donated helicopter was more of a result of internal power politics. You know that the current govt is pro-Indian but is under intense pressure from the previous govt which was pro-Chinese.

 

[Binod]

thanks india for in direct helping us to get more lethal chinese weapons

What India gave is nothing compared to what China has given Pakistan. For India its the first time,China has been doing it for a long time.

 

[serenity]

Maldives returning a donated helicopter was more of a result of internal power politics. You know that the current govt is pro-Indian but is under intense pressure from the previous govt which was pro-Chinese.

Yes in Maldives Dhruv deal it was returned not due to fault of Dhruv at all JUST LIKE the Nepal Airlines case.

The Ecuador case with cancellation of purchase from India's HAL is a case of Dhruv itself failing.