Petraeus’ next war: Pakistan

[TaimiKhan]

Am I supposed to laugh at that line of reasoning Mr. Supermod?

So the militants are not doing this deliberately.

...hence they should not be killed.

Q -Why?

A - Because they are not doing this deliberately.

Well sorry, it seems i am the one laughing seeing you in pink.

anyway, read the posts again and see what is being talked and explained. You for the purpose of just your laugh taking the discussion to another point. The point being discussed is something else.

 

[TaimiKhan]

That is a very deep and astute comment. If the NATO forces descend to the same level of barbaric indiscriminate killing, then they cannot claim any moral superiority.

"We have become what we set out to destroy!"

Abu Ghraib, killing of captured / injured militants in battle field, throwing of stun grenades on passing by shepherds, bombing wedding parties, or air strikes on civilians, torture of captured militants etc etc, doesn't these actions give you an idea that barbarity is being shown by the other side too.

Both sides are human beings, but the situation in which they are is gonna show them their real nature.

To me both sides have shown their barbarism to different levels.

 

[Jihad]

India wasn't hiding OBL, and thus, not "swarmed". You imply OBL was invited?

Whether OBL was in Pakistan or not, before 9/11 CIA agents were present in Pakistan, and after OBL they'll still be there.
And you say that the GoP was hiding OBL, well that's a different discussion..

That is because they didnot want to take any chances. They were highly skeptical about Pakistan's loyalties. In other instances, the US tipped off Pakistan well beforehand but mysteriously, when ever the US and Pak forces arrived to capture the militants, the place would be empty!!!


Frankly speaking, IF and that's a big IF, OBL was hiding in India and US took him out in a hot pursuit, then I'd be really thankful to the US for doing what our security was not able to do as these type of b@stards are like a disgrace to the whole human race.

That's the problem, both sides are skeptical of eachother and mistrust is in place.
However, the U.S. went for own succes, to clean up its image and went in and did the operation by itself.
Afterwards, portraying in the media that we were hiding OBL, that our country indeed was not to be trusted etc.
We were ridiculed, not for the first time, by the U.S. and its media.

Pakistan is the main ally of the U.S. and we all know how "popular" the U.S. is in Pakistan among the people.
It puts pressure on our government to act against the U.S. when these raids are conducted without any co-operation or notice to the GoP or the PA.
And when the GoP doesn't act, then the domestic issues become bigger and the Pakistani public becomes even more agitated and not amused of the American presence in and around our country.

We need the unity an the backing of our own people to succeed in this WoT, and I feel, the way America is handling these sentiments is reckless and not the right course.

It's all double faced policy, the U.S. says that ties are good and that we have to work towards mutual understanding for the sake of our people and the nation.

But at the same time, they conduct this raid, let alone the drone strikes, where our government is not able to take matters in its own hands and assure the Americans that we can do the job by ourselves.

It puts immense pressure on our already fragile government.
And while they're faced with this WoT and the shaky relations with the Americans.

One must not forget that we also have our own domestic problems which increase because attention is diverted elsewhere.

I agree that I am glad that OBL is dead, I don't think it matters much, it's much like when they got Saddam Hussein, it's not gonna be a turning point, but it's an achievement that most likely boosts morale, and ofcourse boosts President Obama's chances of a 2nd term as head of state.

But this must not be at cost of the GoP, the Army and the people of Pakistan.
I still condemn the way the Americans perceive to be our loyal and trustworthy ally, but in public, they continue to stab us in our back.

If they were as open and friendly to us, as they are to Isreal right now, then the WoT would be close to an ending or successive stage in our own country to say the least.

 

[T-Rex]

Our scum doesn't go to Pakistan and kill Pakistanis. If anything, they kill people in India.

Your scum, on the other hand, is quite adept at killing people beyond your borders, which gives those killed every right to clean up your mess if yuo fail to do so.

Your scums supply weapons to the terrorists in Beluchistan and now they are supplying weapons to the terrorists in Karachi.

 

[rajusri]

Your scums supply weapons to the terrorists in Beluchistan and now they are supplying weapons to the terrorists in Karachi.

Even Pakistanis did not believe those words of Reham Malik but you do. You scums still love others country more than your so called country?

 

[VCheng]

Abu Ghraib, killing of captured / injured militants in battle field, throwing of stun grenades on passing by shepherds, bombing wedding parties, or air strikes on civilians, torture of captured militants etc etc, doesn't these actions give you an idea that barbarity is being shown by the other side too.

Both sides are human beings, but the situation in which they are is gonna show them their real nature.

To me both sides have shown their barbarism to different levels.

I do not want to derail this thread, so in response I will only say that you do make some fair points.

 

[CENTCOM]

Now more than ever, it is of utmost importance for Pakistan and the US to cooperate more closely to improve US-Pak relationship. We have to realize that terrorism is not an issue for the US alone, but for Pakistan and the rest of the world as well. Pakistan has suffered greatly at the hands of terrorists. Are not lack of security and lack of political-economic stability due to terrorism? So let us end once and for all the blame game of who funded which group during what era. The US and Pakistan funded, trained and supplied the anti-Soviet Mujahideen.

How can the United States be blamed for forming terrorist groups like the Al-Qaeda and the Taliban when it was after the soviet war, when US shifted focus from the AF/Pak region, these groups were formed and civil war broke out between these groups within the Mujahideen movement. When the dusts of war settled it was the Taliban who installed their tyrannical regime over Afghanistan. Because Taliban regime harbored foreign terrorists, like Al Qaeda (AQ) who were responsible for the 9/11 attack, the US received permission from the internationally recognized Afghan government in exile to pursue AQ into Afghanistan. Claims that the US is going to wage a war on Pakistan have proved for over a decade to be false. Those accusations were baseless then and they remain baseless now and on into the future. All recognize that the U.S-Pak relationship runs smoothly and at time over a rough patch, but smooth or rough do we not we remain on a common path? Are we not joined by a common interest; together to eradicate terrorism from the region?

As for human shields, we inform you once again that the US military has a strict policy of preventing, by all means and at any cost, civilian casualties. Watch this video which depicts our protocol of engaging in combat.

Terrorists, on the other hand, use innocent civilians as human shields. Unlike terrorists, true soldiers wear uniforms to distinguish themselves from ordinary civilians. Unlike terrorists, true soldiers do not hide behind and shoot from among the people so that return fire will kill innocent civilians. Do not cowardly Taliban use others –the brainwashed and weak minded-- to blow up innocent Pakistani and Afghan civilians in an attempt to put pressure on the governments and militaries of Afghanistan and Pakistan? And now these cowards have started wearing female clothing like burqa and hijab to hide their identity and use children for suicide attacks. In warfare, having the intention of actually targeting innocent civilians on purpose versus trying your best to avoid civilian casualties is what differentiates between right and wrong.

UN Condemns Taliban's Use of Children for Suicide Attacks
Taliban Tactics Bring Spike in Civilian Deaths
[video]http://youtu.be/8_MmUwH6f7Y[/video]

CDR Bill Speaks
DET – U.S. Central Command
U.S. Central Command

 

[Juice]

This is'nt going to be Iraq mate. Wake up. You people will cry if you go on a war with us like you did with Vietnam. . But thanks for informing. .

Lol, Vietnam. We didn't end up staying, but talk to a Vietnamese person who went through the war. If you want to live in tunnels for years while your nation is so thoroughly destroyed to the point it hasn't fully recovered 40 years on go ahead.

 

[VCheng]

Lol, Vietnam. We didn't end up staying, but talk to a Vietnamese person who went through the war. If you want to live in tunnels for years while your nation is so thoroughly destroyed to the point it hasn't fully recovered 40 years on go ahead.

Juice, may I please remind you the words of a great American President Theodore Roosevelt: "Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far." May I suggest speaking softly as there is no real doubt as to the other part of the saying?

 

[Juice]

Juice, may I please remind you the words of a great American President Theodore Roosevelt: "Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far." May I suggest speaking softly as there is no real doubt as to the other part of the saying?

Thanks, Vcheng, I need a reminder here and there.

 

[venu309]

I think the problem lies in the strategic shift in the world order... a few years back America encouraged extremism with the supply of arms & money to the Pakistani military & ISI to nurture & breed the militants to fight against the Russians. In this Pakistani military & ISI saw a great opportunity to use them against their favourite punching bag, India. They did that initially with great success, but this was a short term thinking & this cancer grew so much that it has become deep rooted in Pakistan & a lot of disgruntled youths seem to find solace in joining these organisations. And of ‘course the drone attacks seem to be creating more disgruntled people. To me it seems to be creating more problems than solving it.
If the Pakistani establishment was not under the American control, & was serious in your war against terror, then I’m sure that GoP could have ordered the Americans out of Pakistan. But even a few days back you had your General going to Washington & asking for money, even blackmailing them with pulling out of WOT.
What this essentially means is you pay us money & you can continue attacking & killing our people with Drones.
The Pakistani establishment is so much under the US's thumb that the US knows that they can pay a few bucks & do whatever they want...

 

[Pak_Sher]

India wasn't hiding OBL, and thus, not "swarmed". You imply OBL was invited?

Pakistan was not hiding OBL either. So if I take your argument. The 9-11 mastermind planned and lived in Hamburg, Germany for 3+ years, so the Germans were hiding him. And the 911 guys that lived close to the Pentagon and spied on it, US was hiding them. 911 terrorist living close to the US Military Headquarters, US must be knowing about it because as per US if OBL was close to the Pakistan Military Academy the Pakistanis got to be knowing about it. In the end the US with hundredes of satellites could not find OBL for 10 years and there 10 year intelligence failures cannot be blamed on Pakistan.

If the US was that good and Israel was really a US friend then Israel would have shared the 911 intelligence and 911 should not have happened in the first place.

 

[MilSpec]

The elephant in the room that no one wants to address is Pakistani army. Till the nation is in the clutches of its army, it will continue to foster its assymetric assets against Afganistan/NATO as well as India.

Under the guise if fighting terrorism , Pakistani military has been continuously extorting money from it Allies and more importantly the Pakistani Public. This investment in WoT that Pakistan wants to be reimbursed for, came from Pakistani people's pockets. What justification did the Pakistani army had to use up billions of dollars to aid Afghan war. This is what happens when there is no public voice to govern the country

So essentially PA built and backed mujhahideen taliban organisations without any control with the public's money. When some if them went independent from their handlers... The PA used Pakistani money to fight them pushing the economy into bankruptcy. Forget the aid money, thats all used to build conventional and nuclear assets against India

Pakistani army has used china mostly to develop its military capabilities rather than education or infrastructure. Lack of education and employment is the primary cause for Pakistani youth too be attracted towards the mujhhideen business.

Its is of utmost importance for pakistani people to take control of their military... This war on terror can never be ended unless the pakistani people are empowered.

US rather than opening a covert fromt to fight pakistanis by drone attacks and covert actions should rather concentrate of empowering the political system and sanctioning the military.

 

[fatman17]

The elephant in the room that no one wants to address is Pakistani army. Till the nation is in the clutches of its army, it will continue to foster its assymetric assets against Afganistan/NATO as well as India.

Under the guise if fighting terrorism , Pakistani military has been continuously extorting money from it Allies and more importantly the Pakistani Public. This investment in WoT that Pakistan wants to be reimbursed for, came from Pakistani people's pockets. What justification did the Pakistani army had to use up billions of dollars to aid Afghan war. This is what happens when there is no public voice to govern the country

So essentially PA built and backed mujhahideen taliban organisations without any control with the public's money. When some if them went independent from their handlers... The PA used Pakistani money to fight them pushing the economy into bankruptcy. Forget the aid money, thats all used to build conventional and nuclear assets against India

Pakistani army has used china mostly to develop its military capabilities rather than education or infrastructure. Lack of education and employment is the primary cause for Pakistani youth too be attracted towards the mujhhideen business.

Its is of utmost importance for pakistani people to take control of their military... This war on terror can never be ended unless the pakistani people are empowered.

US rather than opening a covert fromt to fight pakistanis by drone attacks and covert actions should rather concentrate of empowering the political system and sanctioning the military.

thanks for your lecture - tell us something we dont know and gets your facts right too. jumping on a '****-bashing' bandwagon is all to easy

 

[fatman17]

London-based organisation challenges US claims on drone strikes in Pakistan

our correspondent
Thursday, July 21, 2011

2Share PESHAWAR: Claims by a senior Obama administration official that ìthere hasn’t been a single collateral (civilian) deathî in drone strikes in Pakistan since August 2010 were found to be untrue following a detailed investigation by the London-based Bureau of Investigative Journalism.

Its research revealed for the first time the extent of civilian casualties in CIA drone strikes in the past year. The report comes less than a month after President Obama’s chief counter-terrorism adviser John Brennan publicly stated: ì...that nearly for the past year there hasn’t been a single collateral death because of the exceptional proficiency, precision of the capabilities that we’ve been able to developî.

The Bureau of Investigative Journalism’s analysis of 116 drone strikes that took place in Pakistan’s tribal areas between August 2010 and Brennan’s speech on June 29 reveals:

- 10 drone strikes in which a total of at least 45 civilians have been killed.

- Six named children killed by these drone strikes.

- At least 15 additional strikes are likely to have killed many more civilians.

- US drone strikes in Pakistan have risen from one a year in 2004 to one every four days under President Obama.

- The US continues to insist that drone strikes are ìthe most accurate weapon in historyî.

For more than six months, US intelligence sources have insisted that there have been no civilian deaths since a specific drone strike on August 23, 2010. That CIA attack caused the death of seven women and children, and reportedly led to a policy change in how strikes are targeted.

Despite being shown a summary of the Bureau of Investigative Journalism’s findings, a senior US official insisted: ìThere haven’t been any non-combatant casualties for about a year, and assertions to the contrary are wrong. The most accurate information on counter-terror operations resides with the United States.î

Clive Stafford Smith, of campaigning law firm Reprieve, said: ìThere is the greatest danger here of a falsehood being told by US intelligence services, which misleads President Obama into taking decisions which are manifestly contrary to America’s best interests.î

Professor Anatol Lieven, author of the recent book Pakistan: A Hard Country and Chair of International Relations and Terrorism Studies at King’s College London said: ìThese commanders don’t live in separate military headquarters or barracks; they live very often in their own houses with their own families. If you’re going to hit these people in their own houses at their headquarters you’re virtually bound to kill women and children.î

Chris Woods, who leads the Bureau of Investigative Journalism investigation into US drone strikes, said: ìWashington believes that no civilians are dying in Pakistan drone strikes. Our evidence directly contradicts this. So it is unfortunate that the CIA chooses not to share its ‘accurate information’ with the world.î

Iain Overton, editor of the Bureau, said: ìA senior US official’s reaction to our findings was that drone attacks protected America ëfrom terrorists who continue to seek to kill innocents around the world.í Our investigation, however, has shown it is these drones that killed innocents. The US has to answer for its actions.î

This is the first of a series of major investigations by the Bureau on the US covert war. The Bureau of Investigative Journalism is a not-for-profit organisation based at City University, London.