Peshawar Massacre - TTP kills hundreds of school kids (Avoid graphic pics/vids)

[TankMan]

Socialism, black skin, being Irish or an atheist isn't an underlying ideology which have their own scriptures, history and norms. Socialism is a system, not a religion like Islam. Systems are man made and can be changed. Islam on the other hand is considered to be God sent, which cannot be changed or questioned. Now I can be a liberal socialist or a communist capitalist, and such things exist today.

Why justify what Muslims do by comparing it to other problems that happened decades ago? Why can't you tackle the issue head-on rather than absolving Islam of any issues?

Socialism is an ideology. Same with Irish Nationalism (or any nationalism). Granted, the black skin things were going a bit on the exaggeration side, but still, my point stands.

The problem you have here is that you believe what the Muslim terrorists do to be a part of Islam. It is not. It is not a part of the scripture either. The modern 'Islamism' is a political ideology that claims Islam allows terrorism under certain circumstances. There is no scripture or text in Islam that does not condemn hurting innocents.

Why justify what Muslims do by comparing it to other problems that happened decades ago?

Didn't expect a strawman from a mod. Where did I ever justify it? In fact, I condemned it even more by posting a dozen verses from my scripture that condemn those acts.

Why can't you tackle the issue head-on rather than absolving Islam of any issues?

Do you seriously think that convincing 1.7 billion people that their religion is terrorist is 'tackling the issue'? Islam has no issues, no more than christianity or judaism or buddhism or liberalism. Muslims have issues. People who happen to be followers of Islam. Just like people who happen to be Christians or Atheists can have problems, so can Muslims.

Nothing to do with Islam. It's been around for fourteen hundred years now, and it had its golden ages. If it had that many issues, it wouldn't have made it this far.

 

[T-Faz]

Since you're Indian, you should realize that your country's intelligence agencies are supporting the TTP. This has been clearly pointed out by General Musharraf and others. Evidence for this is not hard to find.
The roots of this are not religious at all; that is just the outer form the problem takes in its final stages.

Show me the proof of Indian involvement.

I can guarantee you that the support comes from Pakistani sympathisers rather than Indian intelligence.

 

[Vassnti]

I offer my deepest condolences to the bereaved families of the innocent flowers of Pakistan. I am a father and also a grandfather; I can understand how deep the sorrow on the passing of one’s beloved offspring can be.

.

This especially but the post as a whole my first post was brief both becuase of anger and disbelief at what had happened, i hoped to be more eloquent when i had calmed down but i see Niaz has already said what i would excepet one small thing AM added later.

I too am a grandfather when i get home tonight there will be many more hugs than usual much more time telling my family how much i love them and even though i will mourn the terrible loss suffered by so many i will thank God for my blessings.

 

[T-Faz]

Socialism is an ideology. Same with Irish Nationalism (or any nationalism). Granted, the black skin things were going a bit on the exaggeration side, but still, my point stands.

The problem you have here is that you believe what the Muslim terrorists do to be a part of Islam. It is not. It is not a part of the scripture either. The modern 'Islamism' is a political ideology that claims Islam allows terrorism under certain circumstances. There is no scripture or text in Islam that does not condemn hurting innocents.

Didn't expect a strawman from a mod. Where did I ever justify it? In fact, I condemned it even more by posting a dozen verses from my scripture that condemn those acts.

Do you seriously think that convincing 1.7 billion people that their religion is terrorist is 'tackling the issue'? Islam has no issues, no more than christianity or judaism or buddhism or liberalism. Muslims have issues. People who happen to be followers of Islam. Just like people who happen to be Christians or Atheists can have problems, so can Muslims.

Nothing to do with Islam. It's been around for fourteen hundred years now, and it had its golden ages. If it had that many issues, it wouldn't have made it this far.

Ok, as the Quran says, "To You Your Religion and To Me Mine". I know my religion well, and I practice it. But, I also know that it can, and has, caused problems. Muslims and Islam are not two distinct entities. Muslims are followers of Islam. So if they do something wrong the name of Islam, then Islam is the underlying issue.

I know a lot of about Islamic history from its inception to its golden age. Islam is what its adherents made it to be. Like the much reviled Al-Ghazali said, 'its not your belief, but your actions which will decide your fate in the here-after'. The actions of Muslims are what is defining what Islam is too.

 

[SMC]

Let's just say it guys - Muslims, in particular Sunni Muslims, have a problem to solve. That is not to say that the religion itself has problems. But that there is a growing percent of intolerance, hatred and violence preached by so-called Muslims. Other religions have had this problems in the past as well and still continue to do. But as of today, it is the so-called Muslims that are doing this more than anyone or anything else. Muslims need to unite and crush this ideology. I don't think this is should that is insurmountable or impossible.

Military operations are one thing, but it needs to also happen at grass roots. Kick Wahabi Islam, Wahabi madrassas, and the whole wahabi ideology to the curb. Stop talking of non-muslims, Shias, Ahmedis as if they're less important. Who cares if Ahmedis call themselves muslims, their religion is between themselves and their god - let them. The blasphemy laws need to exterminated. They're used to settle scores, and the whole idea behind them is flawed to begin with. What kind of religion is it that can't take criticism?

These are my thoughts. I have felt this way for a while, but didn't say this because I thought we had made some progress with Zarb-e-azb. It just seems like we've gone back in time with this attack.

Circumstantial evidence is scattered all along the Pak-Afghan border. What the hell those dozen or so Indian consulates doing in Afghanistan? How many Afghans travel to India and what volume of trade is being made between Afghanistan and India for which these many consulates are needed? You know the evidence is with the GoP, the intelligence agencies, and the Armed forces. Statements form the top ranking civil and military officials are on the record. What else do you need? You want security/intelligence agencies to post top secret intel documents and video evidence here in this thread to satisfy you?

India may well be supporting terrorists but the problem is that we need to be publicly blaming them and showing evidence of their collusion and/or support. If we can't do that, it is the fault of our government for being so weak.

 

[HughSlaman]

General Musharraf has clearly pointed out a great deal of nonsense in his time. And don't search for evidence reducing the black evil of the perpetrators, on the specious grounds that these perpetrators are funded for political reasons, by other 'grey' perpetrators. It is this kind of stupid conspiracy theory that has caused south Asia, not just Pakistan, the most harm, the most bloodshed in the last century. Your comments are really out of place. I am beginning to resent them more and more.

To reply:

You are incorrect, sir.
My comments were not out of place; it was your negative rating that was out of place.
I have not received a negative rating before this; I do not consider this as an appropriate or mature usage of your rating privilege.

As for General Musharraf, as a high-ranking military officer he has had access to sensitive information throughout his career, and hence he is in a position to know whether or not Indians have been behind the cultivation of TTP and other terrorist groups. Pakistani military intelligence agencies are among the very best in the world, and General Musharraf has had close contact with them for years. For these reasons, in this specific area, I trust his judgment, since this is his domain of professional competence. I also completely reject your judgment.

You talk about my "stupid conspiracy theory".
What is stupid is to deny that conspiracies happen, and that major intelligence agencies are paid to put them into action.
Just read the memoirs of Indian intelligence agents, and you will learn that they planned a great many conspiracies against Pakistan. What is so strange if TTP is one of those conspiracies? As it actually is, funded and backed by Indian intelligence agencies.

Among other things, you may want to reflect on this information from ex-KGB agent Yuri Bezmenov, who describes in some detail the conspiracies going on concerning East Pakistan (when India was a Soviet ally).

 

[OTTOMAN]

Ok, enough with all the rants from arm chair philosophers. Think tanks my ***.


Did we get an ID on the terrorists? IMU, Tajiks, Blackwater, NDS or what?

@Icarus @Irfan Baloch @RescueRanger @Xeric @blain2

سانحہ پشاور میں ملوث تمام سات دہشتگردوں کی تصاویر جاری

not officially.. but i guess them to be multinationals, somewhere from between east Europe to ME.

 

[thrilainmanila]

Let's just say it guys - Muslims, in particular Sunni Muslims, have a problem to solve. That is not to say that the religion itself has problems. But that there is a growing percent of intolerance, hatred and violence preached by so-called Muslims. Other religions have had this problems in the past as well and still continue to do. But as of today, it is the so-called Muslims that are doing this more than anyone or anything else. Muslims need to unite and crush this ideology. I don't think this is should that is insurmountable or impossible.

Military operations are one thing, but it needs to also happen at grass roots. Kick Wahabi Islam, Wahabi madrassas, and the whole wahabi ideology to the curb. Stop talking of non-muslims, Shias, Ahmedis as if they're less important. Who cares if Ahmedis call themselves muslims, their religion is between themselves and their god - let them. The blasphemy laws need to exterminated. They're used to settle scores, and the whole idea behind them is flawed to begin with. What kind of religion is it that can't take criticism?

These are my thoughts. I have felt this way for a while, but didn't say this because I thought we had made some progress with Zarb-e-azb. It just seems like we've gone back in time with this attack.



India may well be supporting terrorists but the problem is that we need to be publicly blaming them and showing evidence of their collusion and/or support. If we can't do that, it is the fault of our government for being so weak.

bangladesh and india have a massive muslim populous yet it is unheard of to hear about the same crimes and brutalities, The problem is the madrassah system, these places are basically breeding grounds, when literally you spend you're entire life in a religious seminary you're told that the outside world is full of evils and you're not given the opportunity to explore the world due to poverty or narrow mindedness you can produce indoctrinated individuals who are basically passive to anything, that is why they can go into schools and shoot up little kids. The madrassah education is part of the problem. Its almost like a factory of death.

 

[Special Delivery]

India has very little influence in Afghanistan. NATO and ISAF would NEVER allow the Indians to erect bases to send terrorists into Pakistan. That is the most far fetched idiotic thing I have heard this year.

 

[New]

 

[T-Faz]

Among other things, you may want to reflect on this information from ex-KGB agent Yuri Bezmenov, who describes in some detail the conspiracies going on concerning East Pakistan (when India was a Soviet ally).

How can CIA be behind the fall of Dhaka when President Nixon sent a war ship to assist Pakistan?

 

[TankMan]

You stopped me going into details sis

Don't get me wrong, but the ideology of getting acquainted by random reading, understanding and interpretation has led us to the point that we have lost more than 50,000 innocent lives, plus those of today. You SHOULD NOT and MUST NOT read Quran and Hadith and interpretation on your own as there is a very fine line between the right path and going astray. We have plenty of examples of it. I never said this before but I am a doctor who has studied 10 years to qualify for a specialist and then became eligible to work in my speciality. You will never allow any paramedic with the similar years of experience to treat your relative, will you? Similarly, have Quran - the book of ALL specialities, and Hadiths - the refined approach of Quran become this damn easy that anybody will come up with his BS interpretation without any degree or specialization and start giving his verdicts on the whole belief system? No Ma'am, sorry! Not acceptable until and unless he is (1) from ahlus sunnah wal jama'at, (2) has ijaza from peers. @TankMan also has wrong and usual explanation of taqleed found in free pamphlets distributed outside the mosques. Those handouts have RUINED Pakistan and now every other person is either a full blown mufti or religious dimwit passing fatwas wherever and whenever he can. Another point was Taqleed which is NOT blind following in any way but the extract of hundreds of hours of contemplations of the peers of ahlus sunnah wal jama'at - the system established right after the passing away of Beloved SAW so the judgements given were 99.9% correct if not 100%. How can we argue after 1400 years that fulan hadith is weak which was not weak for Hanafi, Shafai, Maliki or Hanbali ulema some 1300 years ago? I never give an ear when someone quickly disregard a hadith calling it weak; instead that hadith becomes a gem to me. Once the ideology of self proclaimed clergy will be diminished from the earth, we Muslims will be at peace. You called me ignorant in one of your post because of that.....that religious policing sensor detecting me with a threshold of suspected ignorant. You don't even know my background. But am immune. And if I misunderstood you, I humbly apologise. Also, I will not indulge myself in any reply-upon-reply responses. Just said what I felt right.

Ps: I tried to be careful not to hurt anyone's feelings. But still someone is hurt, I sincerely apologise.
Pss: I have not dragged any sect, instead portrayed view points of ahlus sunnah wal jama'at and why we are suffering today
@waz please feel free to delete my post if I am diverting the topic despite many warnings

Please go over my posts once again and tell me how my view on taqleed is based on pamphlets.

from ahlus sunnah wal jama'at

Because no other group in the world can have the 'correct' understanding of Islam?

@TankMan also has wrong and usual explanation of taqleed found in free pamphlets distributed outside the mosques. Those handouts have RUINED Pakistan and now every other person is either a full blown mufti or religious dimwit passing fatwas wherever and whenever he can.

This is hypocrisy. Your religious dimwits also go around passing fatwas. Muqallids. Hanafis. Deobandis calling Barelvis kaffir and Barelvis calling Deobandis kaffir. This is one of the major sectarian divisions and it has nothing to do with Salafis or pamphlets.

Now don't bring up the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy and go around saying 'b..but they aren't real muqallids' or correct Hanafis or whatever. The logic you use against me is the logic I will then proceed to use against you, so you attribute all the wrongs to all of my sect and I'll do the same to your sect. See how problems start? Like that. The underlined part.

Religious/sectarian bigotry, like the one you're displaying here, is what has ruined Pakistan and the Muslim world.

Another point was Taqleed which is NOT blind following in any way but the extract of hundreds of hours of contemplations of the peers of ahlus sunnah wal jama'at

The concept of taqleed is not that simple - how do you explain the differing and contradicting 'contemplations' then?

The concept of taqleed is not wrong in itself, but who do you get your versions of the contemplations from? From Imams and Maulvis and Mullahs. Same as Salafis, only difference is that you interpret interpretations while Salafis interpret the Quran and Hadiths directly - see my point?

Once the ideology of self proclaimed clergy will be diminished from the earth, we Muslims will be at peace.

Right... so who will be the one who 'proclaims' clergy? Do you plan on having some authority that qualifies people to be clergy or what?

Also, I will not indulge myself in any reply-upon-reply responses. Just said what I felt right.

What's the point of saying things if you don't let others question it.

. But still someone is hurt, I sincerely apologise.

Apology accepted.

My problem with your point of view is that it is based on one main idea : that the Quran is meant to be interpreted by 'qualified' people and not every normal person. That I disagree with. There is very much evidence in the Quran itself to show that it was meant to be interpreted by every Muslim, not just clergy.

It is not so ambiguous that people will all end up having completely different interpretations. The parts that depend on context should be clear for everyone. And if you have doubts, there is nothing wrong with consulting a tafsir or fatwa, which is what I do.

 

[Secur]

India may well be supporting terrorists but the problem is that we need to be publicly blaming them and showing evidence of their collusion and/or support. If we can't do that, it is the fault of our government for being so weak.

But what does the continuous refusal of Govt of Pakistan or ISPR to admit it officially tell you? For me the reason isn't weakness, its non existence of the facts linking foreign countries with terrorism that is found religiously motivated or extremely weak evidence that cant be conclusively determined. Bar some allegations from officials mostly speaking in anonymity, what do we even have there?

 

[HughSlaman]

How can CIA be behind the fall of Dhaka when President Nixon sent a war ship to assist Pakistan?

Please listen to what ex-KGB agent Yuri Bezmenov says, rather than the unthinking title the video uploader gave it!

You're right though; I should find a better-titled version of that video next time!

 

[Icewolf]

India has very little influence in Afghanistan. NATO and ISAF would NEVER allow the Indians to erect bases to send terrorists into Pakistan. That is the most far fetched idiotic thing I have heard this year.

Like I said before, Pakis will blame it on the Martians to Israelis but WILL NEVER look inside their own country.