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Persecution of Ahmadis in Pakistan contradicts the teachings of Islam

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How can Pakistanis be treated and regarded as equals when the law itself mandates discrimination on the basis of religious beliefs, given that matters of state and religion are intertwined in Pakistan by expressed intent? Until this basic conundrum is resolved, discussions will be pointlessly circular.
And I have already pointed that out on previous pages...

The law will have to change to support every Pakistani and not just majority
 
And I have already pointed that out on previous pages...

The law will have to change to suit the people of Pakistan and not just majority

Do you really think the Objectives Resolution will ever be repealed? The chances of that foundational mistake being rectified are non-existent.
 
I know what Ahmadis believe, I have enough knowledge of their faith ..... but I don't represent them ... And I am not trying to defend them (or their beliefs) ..... All I am saying is that it's not for us (or the state) to decide who is Muslim or who is not ........Anything else, sir ?


You don't represent them but defending them more than them. You don't agree with their views on finality of last messenger but do debate on this.
And ask for evidences from Quran.
And you also find it fine with their interpretations of Quran.

You are so confused.
 
Do you really think the Objectives Resolution will ever be repealed? The chances of that foundational mistake being rectified are non-existent.
If something is not right, it doesn't mean I should accept it. I can continue to do what is right within my own capacity and hope that one day it will make big difference.

Take care
 
You don't represent them but defending them more than them. You don't agree with their views on finality of last messenger but do debate on this.
And ask for evidences from Quran.
And you also find it fine with their interpretations.

You are so confused.

Ahmadis can not be declared Non Muslims on the basis of the Holy Quran (not talking about secondary sources though)

Just because I believe that they can not be declared Non Muslims does not automatically imply that I agree with their views

I am not the one who is "confused" I guess
 
If something is not right, it doesn't mean I should accept it. I can continue to do what is right within my own capacity and hope that one day it will make big difference.

Take care
I don't get this forum. Whenever we debate Islam the thread is banned for rules violation yet every qadiani thread is on with moderators blessing?
 
There is no point in giving ahadees to them. Like I mentioned one of my best friend who lives opposite my home is placed at higher rank in Rabwah and given job of community service, like he is one of the few people responsible to cater the needs of every Qadiyani in Pakistan and he is always travelling and meeting the people of his faith to resolve all the financial and social related problems across Pakistan. His father and grand father all devoted their life to this faith. One day we were having an argument and he said, ok give me the proof that Prophet Muhammad S.A.W is the last prophet of Allah.

My uncle read the verse that everybody mentions that Prophet is the seal of the Prophet and he interpreted as... No the verse actually mentions he is the leader of the Prophet as its Khataman-nabbiyeen and not Khatum-un-nabiyyen.

So my uncle read the Hadeeth that Prophet Muhammad S.A.W says, ana khatim un nabiyyen la nabi baad... that I am the last Prophet and there shall be no prophet after me and my friend replied... oh I know this hadeeth but we believe this Hadeeth is not true... do you have any other prooof claiming the hadeeth to be true...

So he read another hadeeth and he goes.. oh we believe this hadeeth is also not true... so he read out 4-5 ahdeeth and he kept on saying... yes I know but we believe this hadeeth is not true either... and the bottom line is... whatever part of Islamic faith that contradicts with them is not true and show more proofs... which will also be denied...

And this is coming from a house who was really close to Rabwah. When his Grandfather died, I can't tell you how many people across Pakistan were gathered as the whole family is devoted to Rabwah and close to them. His elder brother goes to preach Qadiyanism in Russia, Germany, India and many nations on weekly basis and I guess he will also be doing the same

Well, your friend simply kept digging himself into a hole. There is a very beautiful and distinctive aspect of Islam as practiced by Muslims today. We have not just been given a book and left by ourselves to read and interpret it. The Quran was revealed piecemeal and it is preserved through its actual words, their 'Shaan-e-Nazool' or raison d'être of revelation, i.e. the context of revelation is preserved, the interpretation given by Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam is preserved, and how the Companions (May Allah be Pleased with them) followed that interpretation is also preserved.

You can well imagine that our theological basis aren't so weak that anyone can simply fib or beguile his way through the door. These people are zindeeq. Thank you for sharing your story, because this story proves without a shadow of a doubt exactly why their innermost circle of practitioners are heretics. The following excerpt from an answer given by Maulana Yousuf Ludhianwi Rahimahullah is extremely beneficial:

Source:

https://www.scribd.com/document/23612215/Questions-regarding-The-Qadiani-Funeral


...

First, if there is anyone who holds beliefs of infidelity and yet claims to be a Muslim and presents his beliefs of infidelity
in the name of Islam, by placing wrong interpretations on the texts of the Shari'at, he is called a Zindeeq. In the chapter on "Zindeeq" (The Apostate), Allama Shami writes:
"....because a Zindeeq camouflages his infidelity ana desires to popularise his false beliefs and presents them in an
apparently plausible form, this is what is called camouflaging infidelity". (Shami Vol. 4, p.246, New Edition).

In Musawwa, an Arabic commentary on Muwatta Imamul Hind, Shah Waliullah Muhaddith Dehlavi writes:
"It may be explained that a person who is opposed to the true Faith and does not believe in Islam, nor does he acknowledge the religion of Islam, either outwardly or inwardly, is called a Kafir. If he believes in the Faith only verbally, but offers such interpretations of some fundamentals of the Faith as contradict the views of the Sahabah, the Tabi'een and the consensus of the Ummah, then such a person is called a Zindeeq".

By way of explaining the difference between a correct interpretation and a wrong interpretation, Shah Waliullah further
writes:-

"Moreover, there are two kinds of interpretations: One that does not contravene a decision that stands finally established under the authority of the Qur'an and the Sunnah; the other one is that interpretation which contravenes a decision that stands proved under a finally established evidence (based on the Qur'an and /or the Sunnah). Such an interpretation is Zandaqah".

Citing examples of interpretations that involve Zandaqah, Shah Waliullah further writes:
"... or some person says that although the noble Prophet (SAW) is undoubtedly the last of the Prophets, yet this only means that after him none will be given the name of a Prophet, but the concept of prophethood--viz., the sending down by Allah of some person who must be obeyed as a matter of obligation and who has been protected from persevering in sins and faults -- continues in the Ummah even after the noble Prophet (SAW) then such a person is a Zindeeq." (Musawwa, Vol. 2, p.l30)

In short, one is called a Zindeeq who presents his beliefs of infidelity in the garb of Islam, interprets the Qur'an and the
Sunnah in a way that is contrary to the finally confirmed Islamic beliefs handed down through uninterrupted authority.
Secondly: a Zindeeq falls within the purview of an apostate. In one respect a Zindeeq is worse than an apostate, because if by expressing repentance, an apostate re-embraces Islam, there is consensus of opinion that his repentance is acceptable, but opinions differ about the acceptability or the unacceptability of the repentance of a Zindeeq.

It occurs in Durr-i-Mukhtar: '... in the same way the repentance of a person who becomes a Kafir on account of his
Zandaqah is not acceptable. He has been described in Fathul Qadeer as Zahirul Mazhab (professing the Faith only
outwardly), but the Fatwa given in the book of Fatawa Qazi Khan in the chapter "Al- Hazr" lays down: If a magician or a
Zindeeq, who is well-known and preaches (his beliefs), is arrested before expressing repentance and repents after his arrest, his repentance is not acceptable. He shall be executed. On the other hand, if he has expressed repentance before arrest, his repentance will be accepted. (Al-Shami, Vol. 4, p.241, New Edition)

It occurs in Bahrur Ra'iq:-
"In the case of Zahirul-Mazhab (outward profession of faith), the repentance of a Zindeeq is not acceptable--Zindeeq being a person who follows no religion. It is mentioned in Fatawa Qazi Khan: If a Zindeeq, before being arrested, confesses willingly, that he is a Zindeeq and then expresses repentance there for, his repentance will be acceptable; but if he expresses repentance after his arrest, then his repentance will not be accepted and he will be executed." (Bahrur Raiq, Vol. 5, p. 136).

Thirdly: That the Qadianis are Zindeeq is quite obvious, because their beliefs are totally opposed to the tenets of Islam. By placing wrong interpretations on the texts of the Qur'an and the Sunnah, they try to delude the ignorant into the belief that they themselves (Qadianis) are staunch, true Muslims and besides them the entire Muslim Ummah is misguided, Kafir and faithless. This is according to what the late Mirza Mahmud, the second Head of the Qadianis, has written:-

"All Muslims who did not swear allegiance tothe promised Masih (i.e. Mirza) are Kafirs (infidels) and out of the pale of
Islam, even if they may not have heard the name of the promised Masih." (Ai-eena-i-Sadaqat, p. 35).

The Heretic Beliefs of the Mirzais

1. It is the finally confirmed belief of Islam that the noble Prophet (SAW) is the last of the Prophets, and after him none can rise to the status of prophet hood. On the contrary, not only do the Qadianis deny this belief, but they also consider that without the prophethood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, Islam is a dead religion (Allah forbid).

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad says:-
"We believe that a religion in which the succession of prophet hood stands closed is dead. We call the Jewish, the Christian and the Hindu (religions) dead, because they have no prophets. If Islam, too, were like them, then we are no more than story-tellers. Why do we claim that it (Islam) is superior to other religions? Islam should have some distinction to justify this claim... For many years I have been receiving wahi (revelations) and many signs of Allah have borne witness to this. I am, therefore, a Prophet. No secrecy should be maintained in conveying the truth". (Malfoozate Mirza, Vol. 10, pp. 127 -
128).

2. It is the finally confirmed belief of Islam that the door of Prophethood has been closed after the departure of the noble
Prophet (SAW) and he who claims to (receive) prophetic revelations stands expelled from the pale of Islam. However, the Qadianis believe in the self-invented revelation of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and recognise it like the Qur'an. The Tazkirah is one of the various names of the Qur'an. The Qadanis have compiled the revelations of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in the form of a book and have given it the name of Tazkirah, as though it were the Qadiani Qur'an--Allah forbid. Further, the Qadiani revelation is not an ordinary llham (inspiration) which divine men also receive. To them (the Qadianis) it is at par with the Qur'an. Just see:

(i) "... and I believe in the open wahi of Allah which I have received, precisely in the same way as I believe in the verses of the Qur'an. (Ek Ghalati ka Izalah, p.6.).
(ii) "I believe in my wahi in the same way as I believe in the Torah, the Injeel and the Qur'an . " (Arba'een, p.112).
(iii)"... I swear by God that I believe in these revelations in the same way as I believe in the Qur'an and other divine

Scriptures. I believe that the word that descends on me is the word of God, just as I believe that the Qur'an is surely and
decidedly the word of God." (Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, p.220).

3. It is an Islamic belief that it is Kufr to claim that one is able to show a miracle after the departure of the noble Prophet (SAW) because the display of miracles is the exclusive privilege of a prophet. As such, one who claims the ability to show a miracle is a Kafir, because one (thus) claims to be a prophet.

Allama Mulla Ali Qari (Allah's mercy on him) writes in Sharh-i-Fiqh Akbar on page 202:
"The claim to the ability to show a miracle is a branch of the claim to prophethood and the claim to prophethood after our noble Prophet (SAW) is deemed as Kufr by unanimous consensus.

On the contrary, the Qadianis, along with their faith in the revelations of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, also put faith in his miracles. They regard the miracles of the noble Prophet as mere stories and tales--Allah forbid. They are prepared to believe in the noble Prophet (SAW) as a prophet only when Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is also believed to be a Prophet, otherwise neither they consider the noble Prophet as a Prophet, nor Islam as a religion.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad writes:
"Neither that religion is a religion, nor that Prophet a Prophet by following which/whom a human being does not attain
such closeness to Allah as confers on him the honour of conversation with Allah. That religion is a curse and an object of contempt which teaches that human progress depends on a few narrated anecdotes (i.e. the Islamic Shari'at which is narrated from the noble Prophet (SAW) - Compiler) and that divine revelations have lagged behind instead of going
ahead... hence such a religion deserves to be called Satanic rather than divine". (Zameema-i-Baraheen-i-Ahmadia, Part V. p.l39).

"How silly and false a belief it is to think that after the Prophet (SAW) the door of divine revelation is closed for ever and
no hope of it is left for the future till the Day of Resurrection, except that one should worship only stories. Can such a
religion be regarded as religion as offers no direct line of approach to God? I swear by God that these days none is more disgusted with such a religion than I. I name such a religion Satanic rather than Divine". (Zameema-i-Baraheen-i-Ahmad ia, Part V, p.l83).

"To tell the truth, we have come to believe in the Qur'an and the noble Prophet (SAW) through this very source (Mirza).
We believe in the Qur'an as God's Word, because this proves his (Mirza's) prophethood. The ignorant one objects to our believing in the promised Masih (Mirza) as a prophet and his word as the word of God. He little knows that our faith in the Qur'an and in the Prophethood of Muhammad (SAW) is due to his (Mirza's) prophethood. (Mirza Mahmud's speech published in Al-Fazl, Qadian, vol. 13/3, dated July 11,1925, Qadiani Mazhab, Fifth Edition, Fifth Chapter, No. 74).

It is now quite clear from the above-cited statements of Mirza that, if it is denied that he received revelations and that he was a prophet, then in his (Mirza's) opinion the belief in the Prophethood of Muhammad (SAW) becomes (Allah forbid) null and void and the religion of Islam is no more than a collection of stories. Declaring such Islam as cursed, satanic and contemptible, Mirza expresses his disgust with it, rather proclaims himself to be the greatest of all atheists. The Muslims should take this as a warning. Can there be a more heinous form of infidelity, heresy, Zandaqah and atheism than to revile the noble Prophet (SAW) and the religion of Islam to one's fill?

4. The Muslims believe that Muhammad (SAW) is the Prophet of Allah. But in his pamphlet, Ek Ghalati ka Izalah, the
Mirza has, on the basis of his "revelations", declared that he himself is --Allah forbid--Muhammad, the Prophet of Allah.
As the Qadianis have firm faith in the wahi of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, they believe that the late Mirza was Muhammad, the Prophet of Allah, and they regard as Kafir all those who do not believe that Mirza was Muhammad, the Prophet of Allah.

5. On the basis of the Qur'an and the Traditions (Ahadith) of uninterrupted narration, the Muslims believe that Hazrat Isa (Christ) (AS) was raised up to the heavens alive and that when the Day of Resurrection draws near, he will come down and kill Dajjal (Anti-Christ). The Mirzais, on the contrary believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani himself is Isa and the prophecies mentioned in the Qur'an and the Traditions about the descending of Hazrat Isa (AS) apply to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani.

Thus, the Qadianis profess countless Zindiqana (heretic) beliefs about which scholars of the Ummah have compiled many books which make it abundantly clear that the Qadianis are Kafirs, apostates, heretics and Zindeeq.

...
 
If something is not right, it doesn't mean I should accept it. I can continue to do what is right within my own capacity and hope that one day it will make big difference.

Take care
Qadiani issue is the root cause of takfirism in Pakistan

Ahmedis are 100 percent Muslim. No one can take from the right to believe in whatever they want. And certainly not the state.
 
wow so basically now you're straight up denying the word of Allah?

No, I am not denying the word of Allah, nor do the Ahmadis deny it

I just don't agree with your interpretation/understanding of the Holy Quran ..
 
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