Peeved IAF Looks Beyond Russia To Revive Ilyushins

[Tshering22]

You can't Trust US of "A" !!Enough examples are there around the world!

Brother, this is not about trust. It is about convenience. USA is a supplier, we are a buyer. There are certain things we can buy from USA without worrying about sanctions. Simply because US wants to be our supplier and whatever sensitive communication stuff is there onboard that can be an issue, is being made indigenously and not imported.

There unnecessary meddling and hidden clause and law's are sh!t ,may be they deliver at time they are NOT trusted partners!! Its only Interests keep in mind!! Its not too long ago when US was against us !!

No one is going against anyone here.

Russia(Former USSR) is our "All weather friend" and "Time tested" and our oldest Ally!! We owe to much to them!! Keep in mind the History!!

I like Russian stuff too. But if their supply is erratic and costing me valuable man-hours during emergencies for evacuating my people (the main purpose of a transporter), then I will have to rethink it. A contract is usually mutually inclusive of all obligations; meaning that both sides have to comply by each and every word. Any one side not doing so terminates it. We're not terminating contracts but simply choosing alternatives.

Ils are old; there is no other replacement. A400M is expensive and delayed. What else have we got of the same class in the market?

 

[misterme2]

to be the devil's advocate, Russia is not responsible for all the air crashes IAF has been facing

the responsibility lies on indian to maintain those aircrafts and keep them in fly-worthy condition. There doesn't seem to be much emphasis on their part for flight safety

True to an extent but the lack of spares is the main culprit why the IAF cannot maintain these aircraft in flying condition

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

well -- lack of new original spares from the original source.....

what really makes me laugh is the fact that the Russians even offered them a spares production facility; still they prefer to import parts from former soviet countries

“We are greatly relieved by the Russian offer, for India has to depend on parts for MiG aircraft from CIS (former Soviet) countries which are of inferior quality," a senior ministry official was quoted as saying.

Russia offers MiG-21 spare parts factory to India - Express India


i mean --- it suits Pakistan just fine; but it's silly to blame Russia. Many other countries, even Syria, Bangladesh Vietnam and Nigeria are still flying aircrafts like the Mig-21. I follow combat aviation news regularly and don't hear of them facing such troubles.

 

[misterme2]

Ingrained corruption in the military? The Indian military does not have the final say in foreign acquisitions. Why are the Migs still flying? You tell me. You are smart enough to know the answer. When did the quest for the LCA begin? When did the quest for the MMRCA begin? Do we see light at the end of the tunnel finally? Will you blame the Russians for the delay? Perhaps the Russians are bribing DRDO so that LCA can be delayed so that IAF can buy MMRCA from Europe? All combinations and permutations are possible. To the ignorant, the sky is the limit. So, you are trying to tie the MIg's extended life to the LCA? Maybe, i'll give you the benefit of the doubt but there are many more issues at hand.

You will pardon me for not responding to any more of your posts. Regards.

Before calling anyone Ignorant plz consider all possibilities. It is not unusal for other countries to take any step necessary to ensure that India's domestic research and weapons industry is kept in the dark and lagging far, far behind its competitors. It serves many purposes primarily for economic, geo-political, and as an enemy;s objective to slow India's pace of development. As for ingrained corruption, you are correct about the military not making the final decision but a nexus exists between such transactions....General Kapoor and Fernadez are higly public examples but there are many instances of such cases that get brought to light and then disappear from the media. Even Kapoor's investigation is barely heard of. In fact, I bring it up more than the f-king India media. I believe the CAG makes those decisions and there have been many reports of corruption of improper conduct. You can research such topics endlessly and you find a paper trail of names involved since the 70's, maybe further. Your rant is seriously annoying me...."light at the end of the tunnel", "blaming russians for the delay", what the hell are you talking about? To the sheep like yourself, you would have us all believing CHinese are brothers like Nehru forever. So, plz don;t waste my time and excuse yourself from this tread. I have posted facts to back up my claims...when I do you can't post **** back....so f-k off.

The MMCRA delay is a blessing in disguise because you finally have a capable minister at helm, AK Anthony who is seriously incorruptible and will look out for India;s interest first and foremost. You do realize that his position has been reportedly been known to most folks as the most lucrative position in gov't. Let me know if you don;t understand why?

 

[misterme2]

well -- lack of new original spares from the original source.....

what really makes me laugh is the fact that the Russians even offered them a spares production facility; still they prefer to import parts from former soviet countries








Russia offers MiG-21 spare parts factory to India - Express India


i mean --- it suits Pakistan just fine; but it's silly to blame Russia. Many other countries, even Syria, Bangladesh Vietnam and Nigeria are still flying aircrafts like the Mig-21. I follow combat aviation news regularly and don't hear of them facing such troubles.

Yeah great post, but the article dated back in 2002 failed to take into account of lack of spares for the past 30 yrs. The article you posted is remarkable though. It highlights either how "inefficient" George Ferandez was as defence minister or it shows that the Russian offer for spares was too little too late b/c at the time, India was looking to phase the Mig 21 sooner but that got delayed with the LCA. Also, at issue is the quality of spares ebing offered. Even though it is coming from Russia, I believe there were instances of serious quality control.




I am not sure about the fleet of Mig 21 in other airforces....I have to look into that and what may be the reason for such better rates. Whatever it is, India should have looked into it then it opens up more possibilities, maybe China inflitrating the supply of spares to hurt India. Foolish, not at all if CHina is guilty of producing fake drugs and shiping it to Africa then anything is possible.

 

[IND151]

Russian equipment is not junk, neither are they unreliable though the west would have us believe so. Russian equipment is cheaper and economical. They may be comparatively low tech but the ILs and the ANs and the MIs are used the world over. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the IL-76/78s that we use. These along with the AN-32/12s have been the work horse of the IAF for many decades. It is only since the disintegration of the Soviet Union that the problems of spares and servicing have cropped up. We have been very patient with the Russians and have waited for them to resolve the issue. They have made progress, but issues till remain. Ultimately, we have to look after our own interests too. The IAF is therefore correct in exploring alternate supply chains for spares and servicing.

The C-130Js and the C-17s are not meant to be a replacement for the IL-76s. The C-130Js are for the Special Forces. This will release the IL-76 presently doing that job and make them available for other transport/cargo duties. They can also be used for moving cargo to distant unpaved, grassy landing strips the size of football fields. The C-17s are strategic heavy lifters. If you wish to transport MBTs and APC to distant parts, these are the birds that will do it.

As some members here have correctly suggested, India needs a mix of rugged and economical Russian equipment along with expensive, high tech and top of the line American/European equipment. The additional benefits of Russian equipment is that they come with no strings attached. That is not always the case with American stuff.

a well written explanation. thanks

 

[Tshering22]

Russian equipment is not junk, neither are they unreliable though the west would have us believe so. Russian equipment is cheaper and economical. They may be comparatively low tech but the ILs and the ANs and the MIs are used the world over. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the IL-76/78s that we use. These along with the AN-32/12s have been the work horse of the IAF for many decades. It is only since the disintegration of the Soviet Union that the problems of spares and servicing have cropped up. We have been very patient with the Russians and have waited for them to resolve the issue. They have made progress, but issues till remain. Ultimately, we have to look after our own interests too. The IAF is therefore correct in exploring alternate supply chains for spares and servicing.

I personally love Russian weapon systems. They're rugged, cost effective and hardy. That's the sort of stuff we need in our bordering zones. BUT the problems have been not been stopped. Erratic spare supply, cost escalations, cost over-runs still continue to be a part of our purchase from Russia despite Russia now being a BRICS nation and being stable enough to continue supplies as per contracts signed. This is wrong and it has to stop. We adhere to ALL agreements in our contracts with them. They should do the same.

They are our great friends no doubt, but we cannot keep certain aspects in IAF hostage to that aspect alone. You saw what happened in my state. ILs with their ancient airframe (ours are pretty old you know), would not have managed so many sorties for help as much as the new C-130Js have.

Please remember, Russia is YET to have another modern replacement alternative for the IL-76. IL-476 is still only in works. MRTA is there for us to replace our smaller transport fleet but heavy transports need urgent replacement.

The C-130Js and the C-17s are not meant to be a replacement for the IL-76s. The C-130Js are for the Special Forces. This will release the IL-76 presently doing that job and make them available for other transport/cargo duties. They can also be used for moving cargo to distant unpaved, grassy landing strips the size of football fields. The C-17s are strategic heavy lifters. If you wish to transport MBTs and APC to distant parts, these are the birds that will do it.

Once the ILs start leaving in droves, do consider what you've said. 6 C-130Js are not for special forces. NO country would dedicate 6+6 strategic transports like Js to just special forces. They are allocated for use to Special forces, but NOT for them alone. The command of use still remains with IAF and any division of military is to use it whenever and wherever needed. The J varint of C-130 is a stretched one, capable of carrying lot more cargo than standard version.

The C-17 III is also going to be the same use soon enough.

The additional benefits of Russian equipment is that they come with no strings attached. That is not always the case with American stuff.

100% true.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I personally love Russian weapon systems. They're rugged, cost effective and hardy. That's the sort of stuff we need in our bordering zones. BUT the problems have been not been stopped. Erratic spare supply, cost escalations, cost over-runs still continue to be a part of our purchase from Russia despite Russia now being a BRICS nation and being stable enough to continue supplies as per contracts signed. This is wrong and it has to stop. We adhere to ALL agreements in our contracts with them. They should do the same.

They are our great friends no doubt, but we cannot keep certain aspects in IAF hostage to that aspect alone. You saw what happened in my state. ILs with their ancient airframe (ours are pretty old you know), would not have managed so many sorties for help as much as the new C-130Js have.

Please remember, Russia is YET to have another modern replacement alternative for the IL-76. IL-476 is still only in works. MRTA is there for us to replace our smaller transport fleet but heavy transports need urgent replacement.



Once the ILs start leaving in droves, do consider what you've said. 6 C-130Js are not for special forces. NO country would dedicate 6+6 strategic transports like Js to just special forces. They are allocated for use to Special forces, but NOT for them alone. The command of use still remains with IAF and any division of military is to use it whenever and wherever needed. The J varint of C-130 is a stretched one, capable of carrying lot more cargo than standard version.

The C-17 III is also going to be the same use soon enough.



100% true.

C-130 are dedicated SOF transports, they have been specialised and had dedicated avionics for spec ops. Most of their time will be taken with training with SOFs- PARA SF, GURUD, MARCOs. There will also be times in emergencies (like recent Sikkim earthquake) when they can be pressed into relief roles. I am unsure whether the follow on order for 6 will be for SOFs as they are supposed to be based on east coast with operational theatre extending right down to A&N. And if there are any orders on top of 12 then I'm sure that they will definitely be for utility roles as IAF have been very impressed with C-130s and LM.


USAF also have dedicated SOARs with C-130s/AC-130s/CV-22s.

 

[illusion8]

How is that Russia's fault when India itself chooses to fly 40yr old fighters that most countries have retired?

No Johnny come lately, I will not tell them that. You tell them that. You also tell them how they are flying a fighter which was designed in 1954 and first flew in 1958 still forms the backbone of the IAF in 2011. The Mig 21s were designed to combat the US F-104s and F-5s, they were a great and a revolutionary design of their era. A pure delta winged interceptor with afterburner flight capable of Mach 2+ speeds. But you have to explain to the IAF pilots why they are still flying these fighters today when the F-104s and the F-5s have been sitting in museums for the past three decades and more. The Mig 21s were great fighters of their era, but that era has passed 40 years ago. While you are at it, you can also explain why the IAF Chief even in 2011 does not have the guts to retire the 'flying coffins' as you call them. Whose fault is it? Are the Russians to blame for the IAF flying a fighter which Russia retired in the 1970s. After all, it was the Russians who made the SU-30 MKI Flankers, no? No one seems to be having problems with the Flankers, why? The IAF loves them, right? A wise guy called Carlo Kopp who calls himself a defense analyst in Australia feels that the Flankers with China, India, Malaysia and Indonesia are a cognizable threat to Australia and that US F-18 Super Hornets are not the answer to the Flankers.

Lack of knowledge is not a bad thing. But passing judgement based on ignorance is not such a good idea.

Ahead of the annual Indo-Russia summit in Moscow in December, India has once again drawn Russia’s attention to the issue of delayed export clearances for vital repair equipment for already contracted weapons systems, and the “tardy” progress in the design and development of a multi-role transport aircraft.


Defence ministry spokesperson Sitanshu Kar said, “This (delay in export clearances) has been affecting supplies of defence equipment and spares.” India has, in recent months, issued hundreds of tenders for spares for Soviet-era military equipment, including fighter jets such as MiG-21, MiG-23 and MiG-27, apart from radars and missiles.

there are 2 major concerns in India. One is slipping timelines. The other concern involves Vikramaditya’s 3-fold cost increase, including worries that Russia will raise it rates yet again once India is deeper into the commitment trap. The carrier purchase has now become the subject of high level diplomacy, involving a shipyard that can’t even execute on commercial contracts. Russian demands continued to raise the price, even as deliveries of India’s new MiG-29K naval fighters got underway. A revised deal was finally signed in March 2010 – but now Russia still has to make good…

 

[illusion8]

Defective defence equipment a concern for Indo-Russia ties

Though the article is a couple of years old, I don't think anything's changed that much presently.