'Peaceful Protests' ?

[HughSlaman]

sigh.... sad pictures all around.

اٹھ گیا گھبرا کے اور پھر رو پڑا بے اختیار
میں نے دیکھا جب وطن اپنا کفن پہنے ہوئے

uth gaya ghabra key aur phir ro parra be ikhtiar
maine dekha jab watan apna kafan pehne hue

imran khan is perpetrating extreme hate and intolerance in our society.

Please read Post #55. That doesn't sound much like hate or intolerance.

What about the people perpetrating extreme corruption and fraud in our society?

 

[root]

Throw PMLN thugs to jail.DO or DIE.

 

[HughSlaman]

sigh.... sad pictures all around.

اٹھ گیا گھبرا کے اور پھر رو پڑا بے اختیار
میں نے دیکھا جب وطن اپنا کفن پہنے ہوئے

uth gaya ghabra key aur phir ro parra be ikhtiar
maine dekha jab watan apna kafan pehne hue

imran khan is perpetrating extreme hate and intolerance in our society.

Please read Post #55. That doesn't sound much like hate or intolerance.

What about the people perpetrating extreme corruption and fraud

Whats the point attacking Metro Buses with stones ?

If a PTI guy did it, he is stupid, as there is no point, and in fact he is undermining his own movement by damaging its peaceful image. If a PML-N guy did it, he is obviously trying to make PTI look bad by attributing the stone throwing to them.

Now, could you please answer my question about the context of the video above?

 

[Edevelop]

What about the people perpetrating extreme corruption and fraud


If a PTI guy did it, he is stupid, as there is no point, and in fact he is undermining his own movement by damaging its peaceful image. If a PML-N guy did it, he is obviously trying to make PTI look bad by attributing the stone throwing to them.

Now, could you please answer my question about the context of the video above?

Answer what ? Do you want me to accept gunda gardi of PTI ?

 

[HughSlaman]

Answer what ? Do you want me to accept gunda gardi of PTI ?

What happened before those people started shouting at the driver of the car? What led to that incident?

 

[Edevelop]

What happened before those people started shouting at the driver of the car? What led to that incident?

Soon you are about to find out. Let the day go by.

 

[HughSlaman]

Soon you are about to find out. Let the day go by.

Why the mysterious attitude? If you know, please tell us here.

 

[taimur12]

Please read Post #55. That doesn't sound much like hate or intolerance.

What about the people perpetrating extreme corruption and fraud in our society?

i have read it. its very well written and it describes his personal interactions with the strike. that doesn't legitimize the strike in any way. what pti did was immoral and illegal. my family in pakistan live in cantt and have had no problems so far, despite that community having some pro pti families. no one dared to take the law in their hands because they know they will be punished.

If a PTI guy did it, he is stupid, as there is no point, and in fact he is undermining his own movement by damaging its peaceful image. If a PML-N guy did it, he is obviously trying to make PTI look bad by attributing the stone throwing to them.

Now, could you please answer my question about the context of the video above?

what if a mossad agent did it? yahoodi saazish to destroy metro? stop this mentality. we know our people and how they react. imran khan has openly called for civil disobedience, shutting down of cities, he has even claimed that the country is going towards a civil war!

there are two contexts of that video. first, the posts 62 and 60. that shows you the mindset of these people that are out on the roads and blocking all movement. second, they are openly breaking the law and that is the only context that is required to judge them. they are criminals.

people that are perpetrating extreme corruption and fraud in our society are behind bars. the ones that are alleged are in courts. do you want a complete anarchy? whatever imran khan says is the word of god?

if tomorrow imran khan says hughsalman is a thief, should i come to your house with a knife and cut off your hand? that is the moral basis of these protests.

 

[HughSlaman]

i have read it. its very well written and it describes his personal interactions with the strike. that doesn't legitimize the strike in any way. what pti did was immoral and illegal. my family in pakistan live in cantt and have had no problems so far, despite that community having some pro pti families. no one dared to take the law in their hands because they know they will be punished.



what if a mossad agent did it? yahoodi saazish to destroy metro? stop this mentality. we know how our people and how they react. imran khan has openly called for civil disobedience, shutting down of cities, he has even claimed that the country is going towards a civil war!

If you don't like the shutdown protests, please blame the current government, which has pushed the opposition to the wall by blocking very reasonable requests for investigation of electoral fraud. (If you do not know the specifics, then you have not looked into this carefully).

The point of this kind of protest is to block roads and traffic -- although PTI does not make the city completely impassable, as mentioned in post #55 above. It is very likely, given the reactions of the people in that video, that the driver tried to hit the protesters with his car. I think this is likely because people would not react in the way we see in that video otherwise.
If I am right, then this is far, far more criminal than this mild version of a form of protest used by all the political parties in Pakistan.

Can I ask whether you got so emotional when the JUI-F blocked roads in protest on November 30th?

i have read it. its very well written and it describes his personal interactions with the strike. that doesn't legitimize the strike in any way. what pti did was immoral and illegal. my family in pakistan live in cantt and have had no problems so far, despite that community having some pro pti families. no one dared to take the law in their hands because they know they will be punished.



what if a mossad agent did it? yahoodi saazish to destroy metro? stop this mentality. we know our people and how they react. imran khan has openly called for civil disobedience, shutting down of cities, he has even claimed that the country is going towards a civil war!

there are two contexts of that video. first, the posts 62 and 60. that shows you the mindset of these people that are out on the roads and blocking all movement. second, they are openly breaking the law and that is the only context that is required to judge them. they are criminals.

people that are perpetrating extreme corruption and fraud in our society are behind bars. the ones that are alleged are in courts.

My God, that is very optimistic! It's only on the internet that people will say something so utterly ridiculous and expect to get away with it!

For the past three decades, not a single Pakistani person I have ever known has denied that corruption is pervasive and unchecked throughout all levels of public state institutions, except for the military and the motorway police.

It has been common knowledge among all Pakistanis I have ever met that Pakistani people are constantly and regularly getting away with corruption and fraud (the military and motorway police are commonly known exceptions). Why else has Pakistan always been so highly ranked on corruption lists for so many years?

My father was chariman of the SECP in Pakistan, and had to deal with corruption issues: neither he nor anyone else there ever doubted that people had been getting away with massive amounts of corruption for years and years. Why were these people never behind bars or in court?

Recently, the ECP has released a report in which 15 of 22 constituencies examined showed signs of systematic electoral fraud. Why are none of the perpetrators of this fraud being investigated and then prosecuted?

I fear I can't take you seriously after this. You are either massively ignorant, or you are lieing blatantly-- being anonymous behind a keyboard makes the latter easy!

 

[Jzaib]

Here's the update: the Military's put its foot down. Now, IK is about to Withdraw from ALL protests WITHOUT any PM resigning, shutting down Pakistan or anything like that.

It took the military a while to figure out what was the real agenda (Pashtunistan). So soon, you'll hear IK packing his bags from these sit ins with majority of his demand NOT met because now there is boots in his rear!!!

This was how it was going to end. Now he can proceed with the democratic way.....BACK to the Law: the Supreme Court, the Election Commissions and all!!!!

bro take ur meds. i feel sorry for u

Or may be give it to IK first. He did get some meds from Corp Commander of Mangla the other day. Let's see how well he does and backs off his violent track to break Pakistan. I think your Army's pills might work........

US has got hospital . get treatment

 

[HughSlaman]

i have read it. its very well written and it describes his personal interactions with the strike. that doesn't legitimize the strike in any way. what pti did was immoral and illegal. my family in pakistan live in cantt and have had no problems so far, despite that community having some pro pti families. no one dared to take the law in their hands because they know they will be punished.



what if a mossad agent did it? yahoodi saazish to destroy metro? stop this mentality. we know our people and how they react. imran khan has openly called for civil disobedience, shutting down of cities, he has even claimed that the country is going towards a civil war!

there are two contexts of that video. first, the posts 62 and 60. that shows you the mindset of these people that are out on the roads and blocking all movement. second, they are openly breaking the law and that is the only context that is required to judge them. they are criminals.

people that are perpetrating extreme corruption and fraud in our society are behind bars. the ones that are alleged are in courts. do you want a complete anarchy? whatever imran khan says is the word of god?

if tomorrow imran khan says hughsalman is a thief, should i come to your house with a knife and cut off your hand? that is the moral basis of these protests.

No, that is not the moral basis of these protests. The moral basis of these protests is that "When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty." Another moral principle behind these protests is that when it is the government which has pushed the opponent to the wall by blocking justice, the government is the one responsible for any inconvenience caused by the shutdowns.

These protests are a well known and widely used pressure tactic. They are similar to strikes. They have been used only after a year of trying to get justice through regular means, and after a very public dharna, with advance notice, and in the service of a higher cause and a greater benefit that will not come through any other means.

 

[taimur12]

If you don't like the shutdown protests, please blame the current government, which has pushed the opposition to the wall by blocking very reasonable requests for investigation of electoral fraud. (If you do not know the specifics, then you have not looked into this carefully).

you can tell me the specifics. we already had this discussion in detail. i can copy and paste it if you insist on having it again. i thought we had reached a conclusion on this because you didn't reply.

The point of this kind of protest is to block roads and traffic -- although PTI does not make the city completely impassable, as mentioned in post #55 above. It is very likely, given the reactions of the people in that video, that the driver tried to hit the protesters with his car. I think this is likely because people would not react in the way we see in that video otherwise.
If I am right, then this is far, far more criminal than this mild version of a form of protest used by all the political parties in Pakistan.

or he was crying, while desperately trying to reach his dying mother, taking her last breaths, on her death bed. we can assume anything that fits our agenda. the rational thing to say would be that these people shouldn't be blocking the road. period.

Can I ask whether you got so emotional when the JUI-F blocked roads in protest on November 30th?

i condemn that behaviour. i am not partisan when it comes to the law. law should be the same for everyone.

My God, that is very optimistic! It's only on the internet that people will say something so utterly ridiculous and expect to get away with it!

For the past three decades, not a single Pakistani person I have ever known has denied that corruption is pervasive and unchecked throughout all levels of public state institutions, except for the military and the motorway police.

It has been common knowledge among all Pakistanis I have ever met that Pakistani people are constantly and regularly getting away with corruption and fraud (the military and motorway police are commonly known exceptions). Why else has Pakistan always been so highly ranked on corruption lists for so many years?

My father was chariman of the SECP in Pakistan, and had to deal with corruption issues: neither he nor anyone else there ever doubted that people had been getting away with massive amounts of corruption for years and years. Why were these people never behind bars or in court?

Recently, the ECP has released a report in which 15 of 22 constituencies examined showed signs of systematic electoral fraud. Why are none of the perpetrators of this fraud being investigated and then prosecuted?

I fear I can't take you seriously after this. You are either massively ignorant, or you are lieing blatantly-- being anonymous behind a keyboard makes the latter easy!

you forgot to quote my other lines.

do you want a complete anarchy? whatever imran khan says is the word of god?

if tomorrow imran khan says hughsalman is a thief, should i come to your house with a knife and cut off your hand? that is the moral basis of these protests.

i want to expand more on this point, because this speaks to the psychosis of this issue. there is corruption in every country on planet earth. there are laws and institutions to deal with them. imran khan or pti has no right to declare who is corrupt and who is not. when citizens take law in their hands it creates anarchy like we see in syria. also, it wasn't a rhetorical question. i want an answer, if tomorrow imran khan says hughsalman is a thief, should i come to your house with a knife and cut off your hand? put yourself in the picture. same rules for everyone.

No, that is not the moral basis of these protests. The moral basis of these protests is that "When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty." Another moral principle behind these protests is that when it is the government which has pushed the opponent to the wall by blocking justice, the government is the one responsible for any inconvenience caused by the shutdowns.

These protests are a well known and widely used pressure tactic. They are similar to strikes. They have been used only after a year of trying to get justice through regular means, and after a very public dharna, with advance notice, and in the service of a higher cause and a greater benefit that will not come through any other means.

this again is similar to the other points. i feel like we are running in circles. imran khan is trying to paint a picture as if we are fighting the british empire, which is not the case. this not british india. imran khan is not gandhi. nawaz sharif is not the king of england. pakistan is a sovereign democratic country and nawaz sharif is its elected prime minister.
i try to think rationally and not take everything at face value and so therefore, even with all this negativity i am still grateful that imran khan has not called for a jihad against kafir nawaz shairf, because at this point we can expect anything from him.

also, please be civilized. i haven't called you any names. i disagree with your political views, but i respect your right to state them. have that same courtesy for me.

 

[HughSlaman]

@taimur12 I don't get the sense you have actually understood the issues here. I was planning to explain things in detail, but I will have to leave you to do your own homework, since I have enough to do in real life.
Khan has explained his reasons in detail for these protests, over and over again. It has been made very clear that the courts and tribunals are incapable of delivering justice without public pressure of this kind.
It has been common knowledge for years among Pakistanis that the court system is massively corrupt.

 

[taimur12]

I don't get the sense you have actually understood the issues here. I was planning to explain things in detail, but I will have to leave you to do your own homework, since I have enough to do in real life.
Khan has explained his reasons in detail for these protests, over and over again. It has been made very clear that the courts and tribunals are incapable of delivering justice without public pressure of this kind.
It has been common knowledge for years among Pakistanis that the court system is massively corrupt.

its cool. reply to it later some time. but do point out everything in detail. common knowledge among Pakistanis might not be the best of arguments. 18 crore log hamare mere saath hain hamid mir sahab. lol! reminds me of the talk shows.

 

[HughSlaman]

you can tell me the specifics. we already had this discussion in detail. i can copy and paste it if you insist on having it again. i thought we had reached a conclusion on this because you didn't reply.

I was going to explain specifics, but time is short, and I don't get paid for being an online teacher.

You will have to do your own research, and I think you need to; anyone with an understanding of these issues will see that Khan is right on this issue, and Nawaz is a criminal conman using politics for personal ends. Period.

The proofs of Nawaz' criminality were presented by Qadri and Khan during their dharnas, and have been discussed repeatedly. They are impeccable, convincing proofs, and people will continue to support these protests until you or someone else refutes the proofs. You don't even know the proofs, and you have to fix that yourself.

or he was crying, while desperately trying to reach his dying mother, taking on her last breaths, on her death bed. we can assume anything that fits our agenda.

We will have to wait for actual details. Still, your explanation is very unlikely, since he would then have explained to the protesters what his problem was; since they have already stated that they will allow ambulances to pass, they would most likely have let the car pass.
If this person tried to hit the people without explanation, he is among the worst of criminals. We will have to see what the details are.

the rational thing to say would be that these people shouldn't be blocking the road. period.

No, that is not the rational thing to say, since that fails to take into account the arguments presented by Khan for these protests. Blocking the road is to be regretted, yet it is something to be blamed on the government which pushed the protesters to this.

i want to expand more on this point, because this speaks to the psychosis of this issue. there is corruption in every country on planet earth. there are laws and institutions to deal with them.

And what happens if the laws and institutions are themselves run in a corrupt way? ISIS also has laws and institutions in the areas they control; would you trust them?
Are you aware that an FIR for attempted murder was filed this year against a nine-month old baby in Pakistan? Does that sound like a good system?
Can you explain why an FIR for the Model Town killings, recorded on camera in broad daylight, could only be filed when the Chief of Army Staff requested it? What kind of nutty system is it in which a baby has to go to court because of an FIR, and yet when everyone knows killings have taken place no FIR is filed until a man commanding armies asks for it to be filed?
Can you not see the psychosis of this system?

imran khan or pti has no right to declare who is corrupt and who is not.

He has a right to demand a fair and impartial investigation into electoral fraud -- since nobody in Pakistan denies electoral fraud has taken place. That is what these protests are about.

when citizens take law in their hands it creates anarchy like we see in syria. also, it wasn't a rhetorical question. i want an answer, if tomorrow imran khan says hughsalman is a thief, should i come to your house with a knife and cut off your hand? put yourself in the picture. same rules for everyone.

I am not going to answer that question, since it is not at all the same as the situation we are dealing with.
Here is a better example:
Someone steals a lot of money, (which nobody denies), and Hugh Slaman is the prime suspect due to having the means, the motive, the opportunity and a criminal record as well; besides, Slaman does not deny having stolen the money.
Imran Khan asks for an investigation of Hugh Slaman, and a conviction of him if he is found to be guilty.
This investigation is blocked by a stay order, so Hugh Slaman goes about enjoying his life.
After a year of effort, the stay order is not lifted; Khan makes appeals, and never hears back from the court; the court promises to do something, and then never does; etc.etc.
Khan runs a dharna for 107 days asking for an investigation of Slaman's alleged theft. Still nothing is done.

In these circumstances, yes, Khan should protest on the streets. He should even block my driveway for a day.

this again is similar to the other points. i feel like we are running in circles. imran khan is trying to paint a picture as if we are fighting the british empire, which is not the case. this not british india. imran khan is not gandhi. nawaz sharif is not the king of england. pakistan is a sovereign democratic country and nawaz sharif is its elected prime minister.
i try to think rationally and not take everything at face value and so therefore, even with all this negativity i am still grateful that imran khan has not called for a jihad against kafir nawaz shairf, because at this point we can expect anything from him.

You are just caricaturing Imran Khan, and thus you are spreading hatred.
First, you have to understand what he is after: an investigation of electoral rigging by a commission empowered to punish those it finds guilty of fraud.
The democratic system is not sacred; justice is sacred, and the system is just a means to that. Allah orders us to stand for justice, which means he has authorized us to make our own decisions as to what is just or not.
If the system does not provide justice, then we have to challenge the system.

its cool. reply to it later some time. but do point out everything in detail. common knowledge among Pakistanis might not be the best of arguments. 18 crore log hamare mere saath hain hamid mir sahab. lol! reminds me of the talk shows.

OK. I'll do what I can, inshaAllah.