Patent analysis shows how PAK-FA differs from F-22 in air combat philosophy

[janon]

You are totally discounting Portable SAM systems , if you check any war, aircrafts lost in Ground fire ( SAM , AAA Guns ) are almost equal to aircrafts lost to other jets , Stealthy F-117 in First Gulf war made USAF Invisible due to lack of technology to Detect Stealth in 80's but Radar technology has changed over the years and detection and counter anti stealth technology are in place today .

I did no discount portable SAMs, in fact I explicitly mentioned them in my post, in a paranthetical remark. As I said, they move only as fast as the trucks they are mounted on. On the other hand, the radar and missiles mounted on a fighter move through the air at the speed of sound or more. If you have a portable SAM protecting Mumbai, and you detect hostile airrafts over Pune or Nagpur, can those SAMs relocate to those cities in time? On the other hand, if you have mig 29s near mumbai, they can fly to Pune or Nagpur in a few minutes. And how do you transport portable SAMs through places that don't have a road network? There is no comparison, fighter jets provide the best protection against other fighter jets.

Technology has evolved on both fronts. Countermeasures, as well as counter countermeasures. As I said, once the SAM is detected, you can send a cruise missile or bomb at it. Once a particular SAM site is destroyed, your aicrafts can pass through. But availability of enemy fighter jets pose a much bigger challenge. Remember, SAMs are not invisible either - they always announce their presence by emitting RADAR waves.

 

[rockstarIN]

Rather, passive detection will be more headache for 5th Jen fighters than conventional radars. What do you say?

 

[janon]

Nobody knows how many sam batteries they possessed that that time and after first wave of sorties carried out by Nato , No body knows how many actually survived , if it was fluke then why Americans retired them soon ?

Define "soon". It served the USAF for 25 years, and was retired because the F-22 was in production, and the F-35 was expected soon. The USAF doesn't use aircrafts for 40+ years like the IAF does.

The F-22 could do everything theF-117 could, and a hell of a lot more, so there was no point in maintianing an older aircraft to do the same role a newer one could.

 

[a.kumar]

I did no discount portable SAMs, in fact I explicitly mentioned them in my post, in a paranthetical remark. As I said, they move only as fast as the trucks they are mounted on. On the other hand, the radar and missiles mounted on a fighter move through the air at the speed of sound or more. If you have a portable SAM protecting Mumbai, and you detect hostile airrafts over Pune or Nagpur, can those SAMs relocate to those cities in time? On the other hand, if you have mig 29s near mumbai, they can fly to Pune or Nagpur in a few minutes. And how do you transport portable SAMs through places that don't have a road network? There is no comparison, fighter jets provide the best protection against other fighter jets.

Technology has evolved on both fronts. Countermeasures, as well as counter countermeasures. As I said, once the SAM is detected, you can send a cruise missile or bomb at it. Once a particular SAM site is destroyed, your aicrafts can pass through. But availability of enemy fighter jets pose a much bigger challenge. Remember, SAMs are not invisible either - they always announce their presence by emitting RADAR waves.

Sorry i was talking about Man-portable air-defense systems (MANPADS or MPADS) . All aircrafts have entry point when it comes to attack on land based target , No aircraft can come directly to pune from space they have to go through some Coastal or land route which can be protected by SAM Batteries by simple route calculation .

Yes it depends on the total coverage of SAM batteries and Radars , but Military planners can protect cities by placing SAM batteries in such a manner that all entry points can be covered .

 

[akand bharat]

In Vietnam war F-8 Crusader jet was called has "last gunfighter" Some experts at that time believed that the era of the dogfight was over as air-to-air missiles would knock down adversaries well before they could get close enough to engage in dogfighting. But they were proved wrong and even now fighters carry cannons .

Plus Article Itself suggested Too Decrease effectiveness Of stealth By Through Powerful Radars And Sensors Which can detect Vlo aircrafts as-well Now We All Know what is the success ratio of Bvrs In Combat it is less than 10% So the Practically Russians are Not totally wrong here

 

[a.kumar]

Define "soon". It served the USAF for 25 years, and was retired because the F-22 was in production, and the F-35 was expected soon. The USAF doesn't use aircrafts for 40+ years like the IAF does.

The F-22 could do everything theF-117 could, and a hell of a lot more, so there was no point in maintianing an older aircraft to do the same role a newer one could.

USAF had less than 20 F-22 then and F-35 had first few flights . Really USAF does not use aircrafts for that long ?? F-16 and F15 ( 35 years ) and still counting .

 

[janon]

Sorry i was talking about Man-portable air-defense systems (MANPADS or MPADS) . All aircrafts have entry point when it comes to attack on land based target , No aircraft can come directly to pune from space they have to e going through some Coastal or land route which can be protected by SAM Batteries by simple route calculation .

Yes it depends on the total coverage of SAM batteries and Radars , but Military planners can protect cities by placing SAM batteries in such a manner that all entry points can be covered .

And yet SAMs can be evaded. Very low flying aircrafts cannot be detected by SAMs, because SAM radars emit radio waves in a conical fashion. So aircrafts flying nap-of-the-earth cannot be detected. Or, the enemy can fire a cruise missile at a couple of SAM batteries, taking them out, and then send a strike package through it. It is easier to disable a SAM than to completely disable every airborne threat. Hence my assertion that the best enemy of a fighter is another fighter.

It is not either or anyway. All countries use SAM batteries as well as fighters to cover their airspace.

USAF had less than 20 F-22 then and F-35 had first few flights . Really USAF does use aircrafts for that long ?? F-16 and F15 ( 35 years ) and still counting .

Actually the F-teens serving now are very very different from the early model ones. Even the airframes have undergone many modifications. And those two fighters had the design capacity for future upgrades and changes.

On the other hand, there was no such scope for upgrading the nighthawks. To fill that role, they developed B-2 and F-22, both vastly superior to the F-117. There was no point using two different aircrafts for the same role.

 

[vostok]

In the era of BVR missiles,Dogfights and super maneuverability are becoming outdated concepts.

So say with the appearance of each generation of fighters. Reality refutes this idea.

 

[a.kumar]

And yet SAMs can be evaded. Very low flying aircrafts cannot be detected by SAMs, because SAM radars emit radio waves in a conical fashion. So aircrafts flying nap-of-the-earth cannot be detected. Or, the enemy can fire a cruise missile at a couple of SAM batteries, taking them out, and then send a strike package through it. It is easier to disable a SAM than to completely disable any airborne threat. Hence my assertion that the best enemy of a fighter is another fighter.

It is not either or anyway. All countries use SAM batteries as well as fighters to cover their airspace.

Thats why Man portable SAM and AAA are so handy when it comes to low flying aircrafts . In Syria 40 aircrafts were drowned most of aircrafts almost all aircrafts lost by syrian air force was due to Man portable SAM and AAA .

Mobile SAM Batteries with coverage of 200 km may move slow but multiple SAM Batteries can cover large Aerial space and can be more effective .

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Dogfights are a Reality atleast for India's region of countries. India , as a No first trigger country, is wary to lock and fire a missile in BVR mode. Hence India is patient enough to allow the aircraft as near to know its intentions. In that scenario, Dogfights and Supermaneouvbality is a bless.!

 

[janon]

Dogfights are a Reality atleast for India's region of countries. India , as a No first trigger country, is wary to lock and fire a missile in BVR mode. Hence India is patient enough to allow the aircraft as near to know its intentions. In that scenario, Dogfights and Supermaneouvbality is a bless.!

'No first use' is only applicable to nuclear weapons, not to any trigger. Aircrafts violating our airspace will most probably be shot down, without waiting for them to shoot first. Atlantique...

 

[egodoc222]

if dog fights are thing of past...and if f-22 is invincible... why does it carry a Gatling gun???

 

[sancho]

Yup, because it is so obviously skewed to represent the PAK-FA as some unbelievable revolution in air combat philosophy and aircraft design that it falls flat on its face.

Not on all fields, but the early Pak Fa will surly set the benchmark of 5th gen fighters in overall 5th gen capabilities, since it combines what divides F22 and F35. Even if it would not be as stealthy as the F22, it offers better flight performance, sensor and most likely even load capabilities. Compared to the F35 it most likely will be even superior in stealth let alone most other 5th gen capabilities. So only because people tend to downplay the capability of Pak Fa, one shouldn't be honor the innovations and capabilities the Russians came up with, ALTHOUGH everybody said they couldn't after the fall of the Soviet Union.

 

[egodoc222]

Not on all fields, but the early Pak Fa will surly set the benchmark of 5th gen fighters in overall 5th gen capabilities, since it combines what divides F22 and F35. Even if it would not be as stealthy as the F22, it offers better flight performance, sensor and most likely even load capabilities. Compared to the F35 it most likely will be even superior in stealth let alone most other 5th gen capabilities. So only because people tend to downplay the capability of Pak Fa, one shouldn't be honor the innovations and capabilities the Russians came up with, ALTHOUGH everybody said they couldn't after the fall of the Soviet Union.

rightly said sir,it balances in all departments...and dont forget the price which would slightly over half the price of raptor!!

 

[sancho]

rightly said sir,it balances in all departments...and dont forget the price which would slightly over half the price of raptor!!

I wouldn't give too much on the estimated price now. We know that such fighter developments get more costly than estimated, that is even more likely for a Indo-Russian fighter development and if we take to account that FGFA is meant to be an improved version, not like the early Pak Fa, logic tells us that it will result into further cost increases too.
So lets wait and see on that.