Pashtun Chiefs decry war in Pakistan

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Who would bother if they did?

To have your voice heard, you have to have the western media behind you. In this case, the West is fighting the rebels in Pakistan.

The current crisis in Burma is known because of the western media and western interests.

Any news on the Chechens?

No. Why? Because the West has cut a deal with Putin! Or it does not want to annoy Putin beyond a limit. And Chechens don't serve western interests!

And anyway, I think that secessionists, be they anywhere, should not be encouraged if they want their voice heard by the power of the gun.

Pakistan should crush these Taliban and AQ and this supporters in FATA, NWFP or anywhere, even though they are Zia's creations!

It isn't about "who would bother", but about validating an allegation that NWFP or Waziristan want "independence" - The world doesn't have to hear their voice, but somone does. If they are fighting, dying, and blowing things up, and their demand is independence, then why has no one heard it?

They haven't been shy about their other "demands", most of which require them to remain with the Pakistani State to be fulfilled. And I agree, they need to be stopped, one way or another.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Agnostic,

With total respect to your posts and your views, I find that only when certain nations make it their business to highlight issues, no one in the world cares.

Take the instance of Iraq. Who cared about it till the US made it larger than life?

Who cares about Zimbabwe? It was the West that brought it to the notice and correctly too, as I see it.

Did you know of Osama before 9/11? Today, he is the hate figure of the world and rightly so!

The Mujahideens in Afghanistan were swell guys till the USSR was chucked out and today the Taliban is a hated force!

While I do not doubt that what is being projected, I still am not devoid of logical thought where I am left wondering how the media can change popular opinion!

Please read Khaled Hossien's "A Thousand Splendid Suns".

This book and his "Kite Runner" are too so down to earth that it breaks one's heart to see the politics that is ruining the lives of common men!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Salim,

We are going around in circles.

The world may not have cared or known about Iraq, Zimbabwe or Darfur till the West got involved, but the people of those regions did. They suffered through it. This wasn't a case of the West suddenly highlighting the issues and the people saying, "Oh! Independence sounds bloody good! Thats what I'll call this mindless violence!"

The West may not care or know, but Pakistanis will, the Pashtun will, the Pashtun media will, the Pakistani media will. Why have these demands for independence not been highlighted within Pakistan and within the NWFP?

I have no quarrel with your general argument, but my contention is that IF a "freedom movement" is present, then the people that movement is supposed to "benefit" should at least know of it - or is it up to the West to convince them that such a struggle is in their interest?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Agnostic,

I will not contest you on that.

Yet, I will ask you to think it over.

We all talk about the problems of Afghanistan, but do we know what their people actually are experiencing?

I happen to read some books on it by Afghanis settled outside. I think, the world has not understood the real issues!

We are all going by our standards.

If there is no disagreement, why the subject of the Durand Line and why should Pashtuns be a divided nation?

Let Afghanistan also be divide as per their ethnic and sectarian affiliation! Because I feel once the Afghanistan situation is solved, if indeed it is,then the ethnic hassles will start!

 

[antiobl]

The bloodshed and violence are occurring primarily in Waziristan, not the NWFP.

Are you stating that the terrain, culture, customs and ideology of the Kashmiris is identical to that of the Tribals and specifically the Taliban? Only if that were the case could you make the comparison of Kashmir to Waziristan.

And why oh why have Naik Mohammed, Abdullah Mehsud and Baitullah Mehsud never, even when issuing inflammatory statements to the press while articulating their demands, never mentioned "independence from Pakistan"?

Good answer ANM!

Tribals are struggling to live in 18th century while the world has moved on to 21st. This is pretty common among the tribals all over the world. They resist tooth and nail while the world around them changes at the fast pace.

The typical result of such tribal behavior is big loss of life, and ultimate caging of remaining tribals in every smaller enclaves.

This is how FATA will become as the time goes by.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Salim,

I have had "Kite Runner" sitting on my bookshelf for several months now. Every time I think of reading it, I lose heart - the images depicted in the movie "Osama" come to mind, and the sappy part of me just can't bear to go through something I suspect will be similarly tragic.

But if a may, what other books were you referring to?

 

[antiobl]

Salim,

I have had "Kite Runner" sitting on my bookshelf for several months now. Every time I think of reading it, I lose heart - the images depicted in the movie "Osama" come to mind, and the sappy part of me just can't bear to go through something I suspect will be similarly tragic.

But if a may, what other books were you referring to?

You gotta try it Agnostic! Let the sappy part of you sap a bit more. It is worth it.

It shows all the beautiful colors of Afghanistan, and also the dark tribal side that is much more vicious that any other country in the neighborhood.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

The other book is also by Khaled Hussein - "A thousand Splendid Suns".

Too moving!

Read both and you will realise the sorrow and frustration and the skulduggery that is on out there!

And it sadly the Afghans who are losing out!

But before that read "The Bear Trap" by Brig Md Yousaf and "The Unholy Wars" by John K Cooley.

And what books you recommend that gives an insight into the Afghanistan problem history?

 

[Spring Onion]

The West may not care or know, but Pakistanis will, the Pashtun will, the Pashtun media will, the Pakistani media will. Why have these demands for independence not been highlighted within Pakistan and within the NWFP?

The Pashtuns of NWFP are Pakistanis so please do not try to use old cheats tactics to term them separate from Pakistan.

Rest if you are speaking on behalf of Afghan Pashtuns than refer them as Afghan Pashtuns.

And Sir with dur respect since when we had started calling media, The Pashtun media, the Punjabi Media or for that matter Muslim or Hindu Media.
Sir such BS is not expected from a man like you.

As far as role of West in highlighting the independence movements well i do not agree with you.
The Iraq is totally different from case of Darfur and Zimbabwe.

And the last thing which you said

Well there was not there is any such movement in Pakistan neither in NWFP which even needed to be highlighted by West or their Media.

 

[fatman17]

salim - read Afghanistan by George Arney
Charlie Wilsons War by George Crile
Ghost wars by Steve Coll
happy reading

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The Pashtuns of NWFP are Pakistanis so please do not try to use old cheats tactics to term them separate from Pakistan.

Rest if you are speaking on behalf of Afghan Pashtuns than refer them as Afghan Pashtuns.

And Sir with dur respect since when we had started calling media, The Pashtun media, the Punjabi Media or for that matter Muslim or Hindu Media.
Sir such BS is not expected from a man like you.

As far as role of West in highlighting the independence movements well i do not agree with you.
The Iraq is totally different from case of Darfur and Zimbabwe.

And the last thing which you said

Well there was not there is any such movement in Pakistan neither in NWFP which even needed to be highlighted by West or their Media.

You misunderstand me Jana - I used those terms solely to counter the argument that is being made by Bull and Salim, that there is a Pashtun freedom movement, for if there was, would it not be talked about at least within Pashtun circles (there isn't one of course)?

My intention was not at all to suggest that the Pashtun are not Pakistanis, I apologize if it came across in that manner, but to use the common identifier for the people in that part of Pakistan.

My arguments were rhetorical, and knowing that you hail from the region, I apologize once again if they caused offense.

Sometimes language gets in the way of properly expressing what one means, and gaffes like the one above, spotted by quick witted reporters such as yourself, occur.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

salim - read Afghanistan by George Arney
Charlie Wilsons War by George Crile
Ghost wars by Steve Coll
happy reading

Thanks Fatman.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Agnostic,

I have not said that there is a separatist movement on.

Your inference is incorrect.

There is an insurrection for the want of a better word) on religious grounds and alignment with the US (Not that Musharraf is wrong in doing so and I have mentioned many a time that he is the saviour of Pakistan).

It is some posters from Pakistan who wish to denigrate the Pashtuns by commenting on their culture and state of education wherein the Pashtuns do not realise the harm they are doing to Pakistan.

Please read my posts.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Agnostic,

I have not said that there is a separatist movement on.

Your inference is incorrect.

There is an insurrection for the want of a better word) on religious grounds and alignment with the US (Not that Musharraf is wrong in doing so and I have mentioned many a time that he is the saviour of Pakistan).

It is some posters from Pakistan who wish to denigrate the Pashtuns by commenting on their culture and state of education wherein the Pashtuns do not realise the harm they are doing to Pakistan.

Please read my posts.

I apologize if I misunderstood you.

I took your posts to be a reference to a "freedom movement" because your initial reply to me followed an attempt on my part to offer a rebuttal to Bull's contention that the violence was a "rebellion against Pakistan/Punjab and that the "NWFP needed Freedom".

Your initial reply tom me also had the sentence
"And anyway, I think that secessionists, be they anywhere, should not be encouraged if they want their voice heard by the power of the gun."
and I took your use of the word "secessionists" to imply that you supported Bulls argument.

However, I disagree with you on this post as well Salim. Firstly, at the broad use of the word "Pashtun" to describe the people involved in this "insurrection" ( I mentioned this in another post of yours on a different thread), and secondly, at the suggestion (and I may have inferred incorrectly here again) that a majority of the Tribals are involved in this insurrection - it continues to remain a war against groups, in the minority, possessing a particular ideology, imported into FATA, as Mastan Khan so nicely described, who seek to impose their "way" through violent means.

And thank you for the reading suggestions, and you too fatman (I felt somewhat rude typing that).

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Wherever terrorists operate, the locals are silenced by fear.

While the govt forces have to operate as per rules and are accountable, the terrorist don't.believe in any law and they are accountable to none.

Hence, the terrorists are feared.

This also gives rise to the feeling that locals are supporting the terrorists. Actually, the locals are with whoever is more powerful at that moment of time, so that they are not harassed!

This is axiomatic wherever terrorism has been fought or is being fought.