Partition was a mistake

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Dear AM
Fortunatly or unfortunately diff ppl have diff opinions and diff perception .. so this logic of seeing "indians" as one group of ppl with one opinion is kiddish .
and specially Indians .. they believe in one truth but they accept the difference in perception . this is part of our culture and thats why you see so much diversity in India. (unlike Pakistan)

I don't think that anything in my post referred to Indians as not being "different people with different opinions and perceptions". I have heard the same Indians make the argument that "Pakistan was a mistake and Jinnah was wrong" and then say that India is better off without Pakistan. That is a contradiction to me, but I am not saying that every Indian believes that.

My original question however, is only about whether it is disrespectful for Indians to say to Pakistanis "Partition was a mistake and Jinnah was wrong".

I am not saying that all Indians do this, just that when it does happen, if it is disrespectful - given the history of our nations?

 

[Always Neutral]

What I am saying is these are terrorist activities but you cannot mention events like Babri Masjid in Pakistan (I am also keeping terrorist activities in India aside).

Dear SN,

You were the one who was trying to stand on a pedestal stating that such incidents don't happen in Pakistan.

As regards the Mosque in India the crime was equally reprehensible as the above incident.

Regards

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

If I am not wrong hundreds of non Muslim places of worship have been destroyed or converted in Pakistan...

The only difference was in India it sparked a universal (passive) condemnation by a majority of the population.. and resulted in riots.. in Pakistan there was no resistance, not sure of condemnation and certainly no rioting..

I can provide sources if I try hard...

There was widespread (passive) condemnation.

Ironically, this same "passive" condemnation amongst Muslims for terrorism is criticized by Indians and Westerners (on other forums) as implicit approval.

The one thing that is true is that there remains very little difference in terms of attitudes and "tolerance" towards minorities in South Asia.

While Governments in both nations have quota systems to some extent, to help minorities, discrimination and violence against minorities still occurs.

I will grant however that on paper, India does not have laws such as Pakistan's which prevent a non-Muslim from holding the two highest offices in the land. But that law too, while I think it should be repealed, does not have any practical impact on the lives of non-Muslims, since every other position is open to them.

 

[Malang]

I have heard the same Indians make the argument that "Pakistan was a mistake and Jinnah was wrong" and then say that India is better off without Pakistan. That is a contradiction to me, but I am not saying that every Indian believes that.

I don't see any contradiction in this...

My original question however, is only about whether it is disrespectful for Indians who say to Pakistanis "Partition was a mistake". I am not saying that all Indians do this, just that when it does happen, if it is disrespectful?

I believe Altaf Hussain also said this....

Eg. Babri Masjid was a mistake to me but those who were involved in demolishing it still think it is the right thing to do... is it a question of respect or is it a difference in opinion?

Eg. Ghazni, Aurangzeb etc. were wrong in killing so many Indians but Muslims see them as heroes.. is it a question of disrespect or a question of difference in perception?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I don't see any contradiction in this...

Why not? The general usage of the term "some thing was wrong" implies that it was not something that should have happened, therefore one cannot argue that something was wrong , and then also argue that one is better off because a wrong was done. If one is better off, then what happened was not wrong, but a blessing.

I believe Altaf Hussain also said this....

Eg. Babri Masjid was a mistake to me but those who were involved in demolishing it still think it is the right thing to do... is it a question of respect or is it a difference in opinion?

Eg. Ghazni, Aurangzeb etc. were wrong in killing so many Indians but Muslims see them as heroes.. is it a question of disrespect or a question of difference in perception?

Not quite the same thing. My question is specifically related to the creation of Pakistan, and Indians saying to Pakistanis, what in essence amounts to (for me), "the creation of your nation was a mistake, your identity is a mistake, and shouldn't have happened".

 

[Malang]

There was widespread condemnation.

I am not sure if it was internationally reported too.. neither do I recollect having read non Pakistani Hindus, Sikhs etc. supporting their Pakistani co-religionists?

If I again remember correctly Babri Masjid sparked unprecedented backlash against non Muslim Pakistanis...

The one thing that is true is that there remains very little difference in terms of attitudes and "tolerance" towards minorities in South Asia.

Parsis are minorities in India so are Bahais, Jews, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Ahmadis etc. there is almost no talk of discrimination against them..barring very few rare isolated incidents

but Muslims are somehow always claimed to be discriminated.. at least by Pakistanis...

AM, in India minority is a very subjective term
for eg. in W. UP Hindus are in Minority and are discriminated.. in Punjab Hindus are in Minority and are discriminated in Kashmir Hindus are minority and are discriminated etc.

While Governments in both nations have quota systems to some extent, to help minorities, discrimination and violence against minorities still occurs.

and will continue to occur ... it is a part and parcel of our Colonial Legacy.. and it will take time to remove such..

I will grant however that on paper, India does not have laws such as Pakistan's which prevent a non-Muslim from holding the two highest offices in the land. But that law too, while I think it should be repealed, does not have any practical impact on the lives of non-Muslims, since every other position is open to them.

India has not only on paper but in deed also proved its free and fair democracy at work..

1. Non Hindu PM and President.. (Singh and Hussain, Ansari)
2. Dalit PM and President.. (Gowda and Narayanan)
3. Woman PM and President .. (Gandhi and Patil)
4. Non HIndu Coas and Air Marshal and Admiral (Maneckshaw, Singh, Perreira)
5. DAlit and non Hindu Cj (Balakrishnan and Mirza Baig)..
6. Non Hindu Head of Planning commission(Singh)

Now the time to see India as a third world backward nation are over... Some people still have trouble accepting India as a modern country but facts are facts...

 

[Always Neutral]

Dear SN,

An EU report on the latest Pakistani Elections. It shows that minoritries get discriminated in pakistan to.

Regards


http://ec.europa.eu/external_relati...ion_***_observ/pakistan08/final_report_en.pdf


Promote the Participation of Non-Muslim Minorities

80. The separate list for Ahmadi voters should be abolished together with the requirement for Ahmadis to swear an oath concerning the finality of the Prophethood.

81. Efforts should be made to increase the number of people from religious minorities on the electoral roll and who turns out to vote, through civic education and awareness campaigns.

82. Consideration could be given to changing the system for allocating the reserved seats, so that they are directly elected and have a constituency to respond to. Political parties should include religious minority issues in their manifestos.

 

[kashifpso]

DEAR ALL, THESE ARE OUR OWN MISTAKES DUE TO WHICH INDIANS SAY THINGS LIKE THIS. WE ALL HAVE TO BE UNITED, WORK HARD FOR PAKISTAN AND PROVE THAT WE ARE UNITED AND CAN PROVE OUR SELVES THAN NO BODY WILL DARE TO SAY US A FAILED NATION. NOW A DAYS FLOUR CRISES AND POWER CRISES IS GRIPPING THE NATION. WE MUST THINK AND FIND THE PERMANENT SOLUTIONS RATHER THAN AND SHORT TERM PLANNINGS.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Now the time to see India as a third world backward nation are over... Some people still have trouble accepting India as a modern country but facts are facts...

"Indian films never stopped coming to Pakistan, on DVDs," Mansoor said. "So every Pakistani is absolutely clear about the way of life in India, about how everything works in India. But there is nothing coming in the other direction, with the result that India has very clear misconceptions about Pakistan."

His film was edited in Delhi, where he was, he said, "shocked by the ignorance" of Indian colleagues in the cutting room. "They had very surprising ideas about Pakistan. They asked 'Do you have taxis there?', 'Can women drive?' 'Are women allowed to go to university?' They thought Pakistan consisted entirely of fanatics and mullahs."

I think the above reflects that people need to change their conceptions about Pakistan as well.

I don't think that is what people are arguing over - it is about whether there is a substantial difference between the actual (not legal) levels of tolerance and respect for minorities in India and Pakistan - and I would ague there isn't.

 

[Malang]

Why not? The general usage of the term "some thing was wrong" implies that it was not something that should have happened, therefore one cannot argue that something was wrong , and then also argue that one is better off because a wrong was done. If one is better off, then what happened was not wrong, but a blessing.Not quite the same thing. My question is specifically related to the creation of Pakistan, and Indians saying to Pakistanis, what in essence amounts to (for me), "the creation of your nation was a mistake, your identity is a mistake, and shouldn't have happened".

I may not agree with all the Reasons Jinnah has stated but I am resigned to it...
and since it has ratification of many therefore I respect it...

Similarly if I don't believe in God doesn't mean I don't respect your beliefs or I view Muslims or Christians in a lesser light..
It depends on how big an insult do you take difference of opinion/beleifs to be...

 

[salman nedian]

Dear SN,

You were the one who was trying to stand on a pedestal stating that such incidents don't happen in Pakistan.

As regards the Mosque in India the crime was equally reprehensible as the above incident.

Regards

I am still saying that there has never been a Muslim-non Muslim violence in Pakistan. The Churches,Mandirs and Gurdwaras were never attacked by mobs. Although a terrorist activity is a different issue which happened in several mosques as well in Pakistan.

 

[Malang]

"Indian films never stopped coming to Pakistan, on DVDs," Mansoor said. "So every Pakistani is absolutely clear about the way of life in India, about how everything works in India. But there is nothing coming in the other direction, with the result that India has very clear misconceptions about Pakistan."

His film was edited in Delhi, where he was, he said, "shocked by the ignorance" of Indian colleagues in the cutting room. "They had very surprising ideas about Pakistan. They asked 'Do you have taxis there?', 'Can women drive?' 'Are women allowed to go to university?' They thought Pakistan consisted entirely of fanatics and mullahs."

I think the above reflects that people need to change their conceptions about Pakistan as well.

Honestly AM, I was quite surprised that the guys in Delhi were ignorant about Pakistan(must be out of towners or of non-Pakistani origin).. because most of the Delhites are of Pakistani origin... and at least some one knows a family who has gone to Pakistan... and Pakistanis are quite active in the Delhi social circuit too...

Here you have people going ga-ga over the fantasyland that was Lahore..
Jis Lahore nahi dekha blah blah...

I don't think that is what people are arguing over - it is about whether there is a substantial difference between the actual (not legal) levels of tolerance and respect for minorities in India and Pakistan - and I would ague there isn't.

AM I don't know what goes in Pakistan... so I wouldn't comment ...
For India In rural areas there is more discrimination than cities... and in poorer less educated states there is more discrimination than in richer or more educated states...

and in India definition of minority is very arbitrary...

PS: In Delhi at least everyone has "Contacts" and I was not surprised when a Brother in law of a SHO was jailed when he took "Panga" with a Cycle Rickshaw-wallah (who happened to be from Lalu Yadav's village)....

 

[Malang]

I am still saying that there has never been a Muslim-non Muslim violence in Pakistan. The Churches,Mandirs and Gurdwaras were never attacked by mobs. Although a terrorist activity is a different issue which happened in several mosques as well in Pakistan.

I would be surprised if there is Muslim non Muslim rioting in Pakistan... it is impossible.. non Muslims just do not have enough clout... though intra-Muslim rioting is most likely in Pakistan's case...

 

[Always Neutral]

I am still saying that there has never been a Muslim-non Muslim violence in Pakistan. The Churches,Mandirs and Gurdwaras were never attacked by mobs. Although a terrorist activity is a different issue which happened in several mosques as well in Pakistan.

Dear SN,

You must be talking or living in some other Pakistan if you say there is no mob violence against minorities. Forget about the blasphemy law used liberally against minorities and read the below neutral links.

IRIN Asia | Asia | Pakistan | PAKISTAN: Mob violence heightens insecurity among minorities | Conflict | Breaking News

Attacks leave churches gutted and religious minorities living in fear | World news | The Guardian

BBC News | SOUTH ASIA | Concern over Pakistan religious violence

Pakistan police: Muslim workers beat Hindu man to death for alleged blasphemy - Yahoo! Singapore News

Regards

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I may not agree with all the Reasons Jinnah has stated but I am resigned to it...
and since it has ratification of many therefore I respect it...

Similarly if I don't believe in God doesn't mean I don't respect your beliefs or I view Muslims or Christians in a lesser light..
It depends on how big an insult do you take difference of opinion/beleifs to be...

I think on a social level it would be just as disrespectful for someone to go up to an atheist and tell them that God exists and through Him only is redemption, just as it would be rude for an atheist to go up to a theist and tell them that God doesn't exist.

I put statements of "partition was a mistake" in the same category.

There is a time and place for discussion, and voicing a difference of opinion, like this forum for example, but beyond that it some measure of etiquette should be observed.