Parrikar decides to purchase 44,000 CQB Carbines via direct route and cancel tender process

[Zarvan]

People still no answer on which carbines you may buy and @randomradio I seriously doubt all the western rifles failed your trials. You need to ask your forces what on earth they would doing with the trials

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

'Pretty' western rifles break in our conditions. Most of them don't even clear trials. That's why only 5 out of 28 global companies responded, and only 2 cleared trials.

The 'ugly' Indian MSMC also cleared initial trials. Army says they will buy the gun if DRDO improves average stoppage.

Most western rifles dont clear trials
Indian-made rifles cleared trials

Yet Indian MoD wants western rifles

Even my grandmother thinks this makes perfect sense.

Self-delusion at its best

 

[Sloth 22]

People still no answer on which carbines you may buy and @randomradio I seriously doubt all the western rifles failed your trials. You need to ask your forces what on earth they would doing with the trials

The 2011 Trails saw IWI ACE and Beretta ARX 160 pass the trials. They are the most likely contenders.
CZ 805 BREN might also be a contender.

 

[GR!FF!N]

so why import? if one can make it by oneself, why feel the need to import?

btw, that is some crappy looking rifle, the finishing is so bad. Sorry but that is the truth

What are you??A QC expert??From pic itself you've decided about its quality???Wow..

We doesn't require a beauty queen gun,we needs a gun that works properly.

MSMC was undergoing trial.

People still no answer on which carbines you may buy and @randomradio I seriously doubt all the western rifles failed your trials. You need to ask your forces what on earth they would doing with the trials

Dear Zarvan,I guess you're lying.It was posted long back that all those guns failed and Indian Army has given specific reason as well.

read this......

So rigorous are the army's trials that four of the world's best rifles - Italian company Beretta's ARX-160; the American Colt Combat Rifle; Israel Weapon Industries ACE-1, and the Czech Republic's CA-805 BREN - failed to pass a three-year-long evaluation.


On his visit to the Rifle Factory, Ishapore (RFI) on Tuesday, Lieutenant General Sanjay Kulkarni, the infantry director general, put the prototype Excalibur through the "water" and "mud" tests, in which the rifle is fired after being fully immersed in those substances. The Excalibur handily passed these tests, which all four foreign rifles had failed to clear.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...s-on-indigenous-excalibur-115090300012_1.html

 

[randomradio]

People still no answer on which carbines you may buy and @randomradio I seriously doubt all the western rifles failed your trials. You need to ask your forces what on earth they would doing with the trials

Yes, except for the two rifles mentioned above, all other rifles failed trials.

In the assault rifle tender also, they selected a bunch, but none of them could clear final trials.

 

[Zarvan]

Yes, except for the two rifles mentioned above, all other rifles failed trials.

In the assault rifle tender also, they selected a bunch, but none of them could clear final trials.

Man if you are really trying to sell me the story that world's best assault rifles specially designed for countries who have fought wars in most extreme conditions in past few decades all failed your trials. Than sorry you would have to try this again. Pakistan also tested BREN and Berreta and both of them passed the tests and also SCAR. HK didn't came other wise I am pretty sure it would have also passed the tests.

 

[randomradio]

Most western rifles dont clear trials
Indian-made rifles cleared trials

Yet Indian MoD wants western rifles

Even my grandmother thinks this makes perfect sense.

Self-delusion at its best

There is no such compulsion. Indian made and foreign made rifles have to go through the same trials.

Indian Army wants Indian rifles, but only if they are as good or better than foreign rifles. Why do you think the army chief supported the Excalibur? Note the statements in bold for the assault rifles.

@Zarvan
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...s-on-indigenous-excalibur-115090300012_1.html

With Gen Dalbir Singh throwing his weight behind the Excalibur, the army has begun informal trials on the prototype rifles, to eliminate any chance of failing the formal trials when they are held. So rigorous are the army's trials that four of the world's best rifles - Italian company Beretta's ARX-160; the American Colt Combat Rifle; Israel Weapon Industries ACE-1, and the Czech Republic's CA-805 BREN - failed to pass a three-year-long evaluation.

On his visit to the Rifle Factory, Ishapore (RFI) on Tuesday, Lieutenant General Sanjay Kulkarni, the infantry director general, put the prototype Excalibur through the "water" and "mud" tests, in which the rifle is fired after being fully immersed in those substances. The Excalibur handily passed these tests, which all four foreign rifles had failed to clear.

So the best rifles in the world failed trials, but only Excalibur cleared them.

Hence--
http://www.janes.com/article/65209/ia-to-induct-excalibur-as-interim-assault-rifle
The Indian Army (IA) plans to temporarily induct locally developed Excalibur assault rifles into service until it shortlists a 7.62x51 mm rifle for import over the next few years, sources told IHS Jane's on 24 October.

Man if you are really trying to sell me the story that world's best assault rifles specially designed for countries who have fought wars in most extreme conditions in past few decades all failed your trials. Than sorry you would have to try this again. Pakistan also tested BREN and Berreta and both of them passed the tests and also SCAR. HK didn't came other wise I am pretty sure it would have also passed the tests.

Then why did Excalibur clear the same trials that the best guns failed?

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

There is no such compulsion. Indian made and foreign made rifles have to go through the same trials.

Indian Army wants Indian rifles, but only if they are as good or better than foreign rifles. Why do you think the army chief supported the Excalibur? Note the statements in bold for the assault rifles.

@Zarvan
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...s-on-indigenous-excalibur-115090300012_1.html


So the best rifles in the world failed trials, but only Excalibur cleared them.

Hence--
http://www.janes.com/article/65209/ia-to-induct-excalibur-as-interim-assault-rifle
The Indian Army (IA) plans to temporarily induct locally developed Excalibur assault rifles into service until it shortlists a 7.62x51 mm rifle for import over the next few years, sources told IHS Jane's on 24 October.



Then why did Excalibur clear the same trials that the best guns failed?

u're just repeating my statement

western rifles failed trials
Indian rifle cleared trials

Indian Army wants Indian rifles, but only if they are as good or better than foreign rifles.

So why does Indian Army still wants to import western rifles when they have a homegrown 1 that passed their trials, reluctantly settling on using it as a stopgap measure until they can find a better western rifle? that's what im curious to know too?

The Indian Army which is facing huge delay in acquiring new rifles for its soldiers is now reluctantly planning to induct the indigenously developed Excalibur assault rifle, which was initially rejected, in limited numbers as a stopgap till a new rifle is procured.

Army sources said that with the procurement delays in mind, the force is looking to induct the Excalibur to replace the INSAS till the time a new rifle joins the force.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/17...alibur_Assault_Rifles_As_Stopgap#.WGt9i_l96M8

 

[randomradio]

u're just repeating my statement

western rifles failed trials
Indian rifle cleared trials

So why doesnt Indian Army still wants to import rifles? that's what im curious to know too?

NEW DELHI — India has begun a global hunt to buy 185,000 7.62x51mm-caliber assault rifles, with more than $1 billion set aside for acquisition project, putting into question the fate of the homegrown assault rifle Excalibur, which is still in development by the state-owned Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO).

The fresh request for information (RFI) issued last week contains modified requirements and is expected to receive positive results, according to an official with the Ministry of Defence (MoD). The official said the formal tender will be issued in April 2017.

"That project [Excalibur] does not have any future as Indian Army's requirement is of 7.62x51mm, whereas Excalibur is 7.62x45mm," a senior Indian Army official said.

Rahul Bhonsle, a retired Indian Army brigadier and defense analyst, said: "DRDO projects will remain technology demonstrators given that they do not provide the confidence to the customer, the Indian Armed Forces, that these weapons systems are modern or state of the art."

No DRDO official was available to comment on the fate of the Excalibur assault rifle.

An earlier attempt to buy the assault rifles, through a global tender in 2011, failed as only Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) had been able to fulfil the requirements.

Those involved in the 2011 trials were IWI, Colt of the United States, Beretta of Italy, and Ceska of the Czech Republic.

Detailing the new requirements in contrast to the 2011 tender, the senior Army official said: "It is single caliber now and not multi-caliber. Secondly, earlier [it] was 7.62x39mm, now [it] is 7.62x51mm."

The 2011 tender had sought a transfer of technology to the state-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), which manages 41 state-owned defense factories.

The fresh RFI is likely to attract the same companies from the 2011 trials, according to the MoD official.

The RFI says the Army is seeking the specific caliber to replace the homegrown 5.56mm INSAS, an Indian small arms rifle.

The broad parameters specify the lightweight rifle should have a minimum effective range of 500 meters with limited recoil. With multi-option telescopic sights, the rifle should also be capable of being fitted with 40mm under-barrel grenade launchers.

The RFI also stipulates that the rifle should be compatible with visible laser-target pointers, holographic and other sights, and the rifle should be state of art in terms of design, metallurgy and performance parameters in such a way as to remain relevant for at least the next 25 years.

"The RFI is watered down, yet it still remains complex. Why does the Army require an assault rifle with a telescopic sight? [It] is not clear. Does it want every soldier to have a sniper capability? These complex, qualitative requirements do not augur well for the future of this RFI ... unless at the [request for proposal] stage there is a change," Bhonsle said.

"The range of 500 meters is highly optimistic," he added.

You are not reading properly. And it's obvious you are confused between different guns.

Excalibur is a 5.56x45mm rifle. It cleared trials and the army is buying some. But what they really want is 7.62x51mm. Excalibur and INSAS rifles are not capable of firing these ammos.
There's another gun called MCIWS, it can fire 5.56x45, 6.8mm Remmington, and 7.62x39.

You see, none of these rifles fire 7.62x51mm. So we have to wait for what the army does next and see what the DRDO has to offer.

However the thread topic is about the MSMC, not the assault rifles. This is 5.56x30mm. A submachine gun. It cleared trials, but it still has to compete with Beretta and IWI. Meaning, regardless of whether it is chosen or not, it is still among the top 3 guns in the world as far as the Indian Army is concerned.

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

u're just repeating my statement

western rifles failed trials
Indian rifle cleared trials



So why does Indian Army still wants to import western rifles when they have a homegrown 1 that passed their trials, reluctantly settling on using it as a stopgap measure until they can find a better western rifle? that's what im curious to know too?

The Indian Army which is facing huge delay in acquiring new rifles for its soldiers is now reluctantly planning to induct the indigenously developed Excalibur assault rifle, which was initially rejected, in limited numbers as a stopgap till a new rifle is procured.

Army sources said that with the procurement delays in mind, the force is looking to induct the Excalibur to replace the INSAS till the time a new rifle joins the force.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/17...alibur_Assault_Rifles_As_Stopgap#.WGt9i_l96M8

ok atually, i found the snwer:

However it is prestige, not economics, which has made the army chief throw his weight behind the Excalibur. American infantrymen carry the US-made M-16 rifle as their basic weapon; Russians carry the Russian AK-74M; and China's People's Liberation Army (PLA) has indigenously built its new QBZ-95 rifle. Now the Indian Army is gearing up to equip its jawans with the Excalibur.

Because other top nations are all using their own domestic rifles, the Indian army chief decided to also use domestically-developed rifles(which isnt a negative thing atually).

However Army ultimately decided to only use the Excalibur only as a interim measure- and continue their search for other Western rifles.

SO the question is- what made the army decide that the Exaclibur wasnt fitting enough to be permanently inducted- if it 'passed trials' while other western rifles failed- as vehemently emphasized by some of our Bharati posters here?

You are not reading properly. And it's obvious you are confused between different guns.

Excalibur is a 5.56x45mm rifle. It cleared trials and the army is buying some. But what they really want is 7.62x51mm. Excalibur and INSAS rifles are not capable of firing these ammos.
There's another gun called MCIWS, it can fire 5.56x45, 6.8mm Remmington, and 7.62x39.

You see, none of these rifles fire 7.62x51mm. So we have to wait for what the army does next and see what the DRDO has to offer.

However the thread topic is about the MSMC, not the assault rifles. This is 5.56x30mm. A submachine gun. It cleared trials, but it still has to compete with Beretta and IWI. Meaning, regardless of whether it is chosen or not, it is still among the top 3 guns in the world as far as the Indian Army is concerned.

ok, so why dont the Army induct the MSMC if it 'cleared trials'(further boosted by the fact it's domestic equipment) while seeing if the other 2 western submachine guns matches up to it.

i mean any reader with basic common sense would have assumed that the MSMC must have possesed sufficient qualities to have passed trials. Yet, Army wants to pit the MSMC agaisnt the other 2 western guns.

oh, how do u define 'top 3 guns in the world'?

please correct anything that i stated if its wrong- the whole matter is confusing.

 

[randomradio]

ok atually, i found the snwer:

However it is prestige, not economics, which has made the army chief throw his weight behind the Excalibur. American infantrymen carry the US-made M-16 rifle as their basic weapon; Russians carry the Russian AK-74M; and China's People's Liberation Army (PLA) has indigenously built its new QBZ-95 rifle. Now the Indian Army is gearing up to equip its jawans with the Excalibur.

Because other top nations are all using their own domestic rifles, the Indian army chief decided to also use domestically-developed rifles(which isnt a negative thing atually).

However Army ultimately decided to only use the Excalibur only as a interim measure- and continue their search for other Western rifles.

Wow, man. If you really understood what the author was trying to say, you would get that he's praising the rifle, that it wasn't chosen simply because it was cheaper than foreign rifles even though it cleared trials. The very fact that the Excalibur beat its international competitors speaks volumes about it.

The Russian AK-74M did not clear trials in India. I bet the QBZ-95 would have flunked as well.

SO the question is- what made the army decide that the Exaclibur wasnt fitting enough to be permanently inducted- if it 'passed trials' while other western rifles failed- as vehemently emphasized by some of our Bharati posters here?

Because it cannot fire 7.62x51mm. That's the only reason.

ok, so why dont the Army induct the MSMC if it 'cleared trials'(further boosted by the fact it's domestic equipment) while seeing if the other 2 western submachine guns matches up to it.

i mean any reader with basic common sense would have assumed that the MSMC must have possesed sufficient qualities to have passed trials. Yet, Army wants to pit the MSMC agaisnt the other 2 western guns.

Yes, the DRDO has to compete with the other two guns. Just clearing trials doesn't mean everything. If necessary the army can induct MSMC as well as a foreign gun.

As I mentioned before, MSMC still has to reduce average stoppage. So it is still subject to the army's grueling competitive trials.

oh, how do u define 'top 3 guns in the world'?

Because only 2 other guns cleared trials, out of 28. The rest backed out because they knew they couldn't clear trials. And MSMC was the third. Only the army knows where the MSMC stands among the three.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

what has that link not got to do with anything here? bullets are also ammunition.

No shit. India barred the private sector from making bullets or defence equipment, that doesn't mean they can't make bullets. They gave the rights to manufacture bullets,etc. to only a government entity. This policy is changing, india's defence sector is liberating.

Bharat Forge, L&T, TATAs, etc. can make ammo.

ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman what's wrong with with me saying naval tejas got rejected by your own navy? isnt that true? yes/no?(no grandmother deflection stories pls)

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ooks-for-alternative/articleshow/55761834.cms

Navy rejects ‘overweight’ Tejas, looks for alternative

NEW DELHI: The Navy has rejected the naval version of the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA), holding that the "overweight" fighter cannot optimally operate from aircraft carriers, and is now looking to induct an alternative fighter from abroad in the next five to six years.

"We will continue to support Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) and Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), but the naval LCA in its present form unfortunately does not meet our qualitative requirements for carrier capability," said Admiral Sunil Lanba on Friday.




The single-engine Tejas, which is "too heavy", does not meet the "thrust-to-weight requirement to take off with a full fuel and arms load" from an aircraft carrier's deck. At present, the Navy has inducted over 30 of the 45 MiG-29K fighters acquired from Russia for $2 billion. Both the MiG-29Ks and the naval Tejas were supposed to operate from the 44,400-tonne carrier INS Vikramaditya as well as the under-construction 40,000-tonne INS Vikrant, which will be ready by 2019-2020.
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Did HAL not know the navy''s spec requirements regarding thrust to weight ratio? This has now set navy''s time period for acquiring jet fighters which has compromised our national security especially... Read MorePradeep Bhatia

"In addition to MiG-29Ks, we now need an alternative aircraft to operate from these two carriers. If you look around the world, there are not too many options available and we need this carrier-capable aircraft sooner than later. So, I am looking at next five to six years," said Admiral Lanba.




While the IAF is going to get at least 120 Tejas, under the LCA project which was cleared way back in 1983, the Navy was supposed to get around 50 of the indigenous fighters. IAF had earlier ordered 40 Tejas jets, with the defence ministry in November giving the initial approval for procurement of another 83 Tejas Mark-1A fighters from HAL for Rs 50,025 crore. The Mark-1A version, which is the one IAF really wants, will be ready only by 2020 or so

more like u're the clueless 1 here lulz.

Sure, but do you know the the IAF initial order has extended?