Pakistan's use of anti-tank missile battalions to counter larger Indian mechanized forces. Doctrine

[Gryphon]

Coming 25th and 26th Mechanized Divisions, this is what my understanding is. Let me know where I'm wrong:

1. V Corps has 2 x (I) Armored Bdes and 1 x (I) Mechanized Bdes. Same goes for XXXI Corps.
2. After 2002, Pakistan raised 25th and 26 Mechanized Divisions.
3. The (I) Armored & Mechanized Bdes while retaining their independent character, will work under 25th and 26 Mech Div HQs in case of war.
4. These Div HQ have all the support troops required to function as a division and will provide higher direction.

AFAIK, both V Corps and XXXI Corps have

1x Ind. armoured brigade
2x Ind. Mechanized brigades (inc. HAT)

V Corps used to have 3x Ind. armoured brigades. Two were merged to form 25th Mech. Div.

The number of Armored Regiments in PA (which I'm aware of) do not support the logic of both 25th and 26th Mechanized Divisions each having 2 x Armd Bdes each with further multiple (I) Armd Bdes under V Corps and XXXI Corps.

There are 49 tank regiments (exc. PB) now.

25th Mech. Div. was raised by merging 2 Ind. armoured brigades + 1 new armoured regiment
26th Mech. Div. also had a share of 5 armoured regiments.

Next in line is XXX Corps, currently with 2x Ind. armoured brigades. When Oplot/VT-4's arrive, PA will raise another mechanized division. The Corps has already received VCC-1 Camillino's. Rest is same.

@Signalian

 

[rvats]

AFAIK, both V Corps and XXXI Corps have

1x Ind. armoured brigade
2x Ind. Mechanized brigades (inc. HAT)

V Corps used to have 3x Ind. armoured brigades. Two were merged to form 25th Mech. Div

There are 49 tank regiments (exc. PB) now.

25th Mech. Div. was raised by merging 2 Ind. armoured brigades + 1 new armoured regiment
26th Mech. Div. also had a share of 5 armoured regiments.

Next in line is XXX Corps, currently with 2x Ind. armoured brigades. When Oplot/VT-4's arrive, PA will raise another mechanized division. The Corps has already received VCC-1 Camillino's. Rest is same.

@Signalian

Thanks. You've helped me to clarify some doubts.

To summarize what you've said:

1. V Corps had 3 x (I) Armored Bdes of which two were folded into 25 Mechanized Division along with one new Armd Regiment. Considering that a PA Armd Bde has 2+1 structure, does this give 25 Mech Div 5+2 structure or more Mech infantry also added?
2. This leaves V Corps with 1 x (I) Armored Bde along with 2 x (I) Mech Bdes. I'm assuming the Mech Bdes/Anti-tank Bdes are existing infantry bdes converted to Mech role after Pakistan imported a large quantity of M-113 APCs.
3. Do these Mech Bdes have 1 x Armd Regt + 2 x Mech Regt structure?
4. My information was that V Corps had 2 x (I) Armd Bdes [12 (I) Armd Bde+ 2(I) Armd Bde] and 1 x (I) Mech Bde [31 (I) Mech Bde] before 25 Mech Division came into being.
5. In case of XXXI Corps, 42 (I) Armd Bde and 44 (I) Mech Bde were amalgamated to form 26 Mech Division? That would've required additional 2 x Armd Regiments to make it 5+4 structure.
6. This leaves 14 (I) Armd Bde as XXXI Corps (I) Armd Bde, right?

I understand a new Armd Bde has been raised for XXX Corps which now has 2 x Armd Bde.

Thanks for your replies.

 

[ziaulislam]

People fail to understand that Pakistan also has a reliable conventional deterrent along with a nuclear option as a last resort. Example of 1973 is old and obsolete. ATGMs then were short range with less accuracy. The defender needed to wait for target to come within close range. Egyptian used salvos of ATGMs against Israelis to overcome poor accuracy. That worked then.
Coming to Pak India context,
If India wish to get a favorable result, it would need to have complete air dominance, which in current scenario looks very difficult in a short time frame like 3,4 days.

Expected defensive Pakistani response to Indian armored thrust would be:

Detection of group through satellite, air borne surveillance and ground based radars>
use of NASR/CM to target command center, fuel and ammunition storage, communication nodes>
target moving armored division through MBRLs (cluster AT munitions, AT mines) this would cause iteration break morale of adversary, cause delay and most importantly cause sufficient damage to electronics mounted outside vehicles like APS, radars and communication gadgets, laser warning receivers etc. >
use of air assets (stand off weapons) e.g. HIJARA, special interest in destroying organic SHORAD of an armored division>
as soon as the threat of SHORAD is gone, attack helis get in and cause further destruction. A team of 4 Cobras given a free hand could cause havoc on an entire armored column>
then came LAT, HAT with anti tank minefields/obstacles to slow down the movement>
if it still got break through, it came down to tank vs tank showdown in support with infantry with AT weapons.

Its a very complex process, a night mare of logistics. It would come down to final equations, where how much is one willing to loose for very small gain?
It is all conventional, as soon as TNW kicks in, it make the equation far more complex.

This is the reason, which has stopped India from misadventure for the past 46 years now. This is the reason for all the cry and hue. Yes, if Pakistan's economy continue to suffer at the hand of our badmashiya, may be in 10-15 years we loose this deterrent.

i think given proliferation of guided, Precision ammunition and cluster weapons the key against a large invading force will be strong air force that can handle attrition(good numbers)
the job will be to deny invading force air support/air superiority and create havoc with cluster and Precision ammuntion

 

[Gryphon]

Thanks. You've helped me to clarify some doubts.

To summarize what you've said:

1. V Corps had 3 x (I) Armored Bdes of which two were folded into 25 Mechanized Division along with one new Armd Regiment. Considering that a PA Armd Bde has 2+1 structure, does this give 25 Mech Div 5+2 structure or more Mech infantry also added?
2. This leaves V Corps with 1 x (I) Armored Bde along with 2 x (I) Mech Bdes. I'm assuming the Mech Bdes/Anti-tank Bdes are existing infantry bdes converted to Mech role after Pakistan imported a large quantity of M-113 APCs.
3. Do these Mech Bdes have 1 x Armd Regt + 2 x Mech Regt structure?
4. My information was that V Corps had 2 x (I) Armd Bdes [12 (I) Armd Bde+ 2(I) Armd Bde] and 1 x (I) Mech Bde [31 (I) Mech Bde] before 25 Mech Division came into being.
5. In case of XXXI Corps, 42 (I) Armd Bde and 44 (I) Mech Bde were amalgamated to form 26 Mech Division? That would've required additional 2 x Armd Regiments to make it 5+4 structure.
6. This leaves 14 (I) Armd Bde as XXXI Corps (I) Armd Bde, right?

I understand a new Armd Bde has been raised for XXX Corps which now has 2 x Armd Bde.

Thanks for your replies.

This is how it goes.

Armoured Div. (Strike Corps): 6 Arm. Regiments in 3 brigades, no MIB.

Mech Div: 5 Arm. Reg + 4 MIB (2+1, 2+1, 1+2)

All 7 Corps facing east have one Ind. Arm. Brigade each, except XXX Corps which has 2 Ind. Arm. Brigades.
XI and XII Corps have no Ind. Arm. Brig.

Ind. Mech. Brigade (one each with V Corps and XXXI Corps) have 1 arm. Reg + 2 MIB

Ind. HAT Brigade (one each with V Corps and XXXI Corps) have no arm. Reg.
XXX Corps and both Strike Corps have own HAT brigade as well.

Remaining arm. Reg. are assigned to ID's, one armoured reg per Inf. Div. Except ID's / Light ID based in mountainous areas (FCNA, 12 ID, etc).

 

[volatile]

Good article clearly an academic approach to the scenario ,as i believe since most data is public we can also incorporate recent order of AH1-Z with 1000 AGM hellfire anti tank missiles which are in process of being delivered

The U.S. had approved the sale of 15 AH-1Z attack helicopters, 1,000 AGM-114R Hellfire II anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM), spare engines, maintenance support and training under a $952 million U.S. deal. Pakistan ordered three and nine aircraft in August 2015 and April 2016, respectively.

Also this was an interesting development last year ,i suspect the order is just a start or field testing with local manufacturing shortly

https://quwa.org/2017/05/22/pakistan-acquired-instalaza-alcotan-100-anti-tank-rocket-systems/

In its 2015-2016 report, the Pakistan Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) disclosed that the Pakistan Army bought recoilless Alcotán-100 anti-tank rocket systems from the Spanish defence vendor Instalaza

In an order valued $24.75 million U.S., Pakistan ordered 158 VOSEL (M2) fire control systems and 1,413 Alcotán AT (M2) 100 mm anti-tank rockets.

Instalaza lists the VOSEL (M2) as a reusable fire control unit with an integrated night vision-capable system that provides the gunner with a “future aiming point to maximize … hit probability” against moving targets. As per Instalaza, future aiming is attained by calculating the target’s position and trajectory, measuring the propellant temperature and calculating the projectile trajectory.

The Alcotán AT rocket has an effective range of 600 m and can penetrate up to 700 mm in steel armour and explosive reactive armour (ERA). Combined, the VOSEL (M2) and Alcotán-100 weigh 14.5 kg (with the Alcotán-100 weighing 10.5 kg).

So it appears there are quite surprizes left on the side note people cry Nasr or other options but if tactics employed smartly it will be even bigger battle of armour then in history

 

[Army research]

Good article clearly an academic approach to the scenario ,as i believe since most data is public we can also incorporate recent order of AH1-Z with 1000 AGM hellfire anti tank missiles which are in process of being delivered

The U.S. had approved the sale of 15 AH-1Z attack helicopters, 1,000 AGM-114R Hellfire II anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM), spare engines, maintenance support and training under a $952 million U.S. deal. Pakistan ordered three and nine aircraft in August 2015 and April 2016, respectively.

Also this was an interesting development last year ,i suspect the order is just a start or field testing with local manufacturing shortly

https://quwa.org/2017/05/22/pakistan-acquired-instalaza-alcotan-100-anti-tank-rocket-systems/

In its 2015-2016 report, the Pakistan Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) disclosed that the Pakistan Army bought recoilless Alcotán-100 anti-tank rocket systems from the Spanish defence vendor Instalaza

In an order valued $24.75 million U.S., Pakistan ordered 158 VOSEL (M2) fire control systems and 1,413 Alcotán AT (M2) 100 mm anti-tank rockets.

Instalaza lists the VOSEL (M2) as a reusable fire control unit with an integrated night vision-capable system that provides the gunner with a “future aiming point to maximize … hit probability” against moving targets. As per Instalaza, future aiming is attained by calculating the target’s position and trajectory, measuring the propellant temperature and calculating the projectile trajectory.

The Alcotán AT rocket has an effective range of 600 m and can penetrate up to 700 mm in steel armour and explosive reactive armour (ERA). Combined, the VOSEL (M2) and Alcotán-100 weigh 14.5 kg (with the Alcotán-100 weighing 10.5 kg).

So it appears there are quite surprizes left on the side note people cry Nasr or other options but if tactics employed smartly it will be even bigger battle of armour then in history

Not the biggest battle , believe nothing will ever beat the numbers involved in operation citadel, rather the deadliest battle because of the largest concentration of fire power

 

[Ahassan]

I assure you my brother ... Alcotán AT rocket systems are not meant for PA Infantry ... its sole purpose lies with SSG ...

Salam

Good article clearly an academic approach to the scenario ,as i believe since most data is public we can also incorporate recent order of AH1-Z with 1000 AGM hellfire anti tank missiles which are in process of being delivered

The U.S. had approved the sale of 15 AH-1Z attack helicopters, 1,000 AGM-114R Hellfire II anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM), spare engines, maintenance support and training under a $952 million U.S. deal. Pakistan ordered three and nine aircraft in August 2015 and April 2016, respectively.

Also this was an interesting development last year ,i suspect the order is just a start or field testing with local manufacturing shortly

https://quwa.org/2017/05/22/pakistan-acquired-instalaza-alcotan-100-anti-tank-rocket-systems/

In its 2015-2016 report, the Pakistan Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) disclosed that the Pakistan Army bought recoilless Alcotán-100 anti-tank rocket systems from the Spanish defence vendor Instalaza

In an order valued $24.75 million U.S., Pakistan ordered 158 VOSEL (M2) fire control systems and 1,413 Alcotán AT (M2) 100 mm anti-tank rockets.

Instalaza lists the VOSEL (M2) as a reusable fire control unit with an integrated night vision-capable system that provides the gunner with a “future aiming point to maximize … hit probability” against moving targets. As per Instalaza, future aiming is attained by calculating the target’s position and trajectory, measuring the propellant temperature and calculating the projectile trajectory.

The Alcotán AT rocket has an effective range of 600 m and can penetrate up to 700 mm in steel armour and explosive reactive armour (ERA). Combined, the VOSEL (M2) and Alcotán-100 weigh 14.5 kg (with the Alcotán-100 weighing 10.5 kg).

So it appears there are quite surprizes left on the side note people cry Nasr or other options but if tactics employed smartly it will be even bigger battle of armour then in history

 

[BHarwana]

Pakistan Exports HJ-8 Anti-Tank Missiles to 20 Countries


Pakistan has exported the HJ-8 anti-tank missiles to 20 nations around the globe including Bangladesh, Bolivia, Egypt, Ecuador, Kenya, Malaysia, Morocco, Peru, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Syria, the United Arab Emirates, Uruguay, Venezuela and Zimbabwe. HJ-8 is a second generation tube launched, optically tracked, wire-guided anti-tank missile system produced by Pakistan under license from China.


Pakistan has been able to export 10,000 HJ-8 missiles since the 1980’s when China convinced the Pakistan Army to purchase these missiles instead of using the American-built BGM-71 TOW anti-tank missile.

The powerful HJ-8 series is the Chinese equivalent of the American BGM-71 TOW and Franco-German MILAN / Euromissile HOT anti-tank missiles.

According to Duowei report, US-based Chinese news outlet, Pakistan carried out tests pitting the HJ-8 against the TOW system to choose the best missile for its ground force.

The HJ-8 won the love of all by destroying all five targets with five launches while the TOW only destroyed three targets.

Pakistan has an independent production line to manufacture the HJ-8 anti-tank missile. The growing partnership between Pakistan and China is expected to strengthen both the countries in arms and ammunition technology.




https://www.brandsynario.com/pakistan-exports-hj-8-anti-tank-missiles-to-20-countries/

 

[Readerdefence]

I'm the author of the article and owner of the blog.

This particular analysis was done with the aim of understanding the kind of ATGMs is service with Pakistan Army and how it employs them. With focus on Light and Heavy Anti-Tank battalions and how these pose a challenge to any mechanized thrust by Indian Army.

It is part of the series which I will be doing over coming months to cover different aspects of Pakistan Army.

Coming to points raised by you, those were not germane to the analysis as I wanted to understand and analyse only one specific capability of Pakistan Army. Tomorrow, if anyone attempts a much larger and broader analysis, this information - about PA ATGM battalions - will help to draw a much more informed simulation.



Well, thank you for the good word.

As you said, it was meant to assess only a specific capability. There is a detailed article on the blog about Indian Army's ATGM capability and future programs.

If you can publicly share information about errors in the article, please do. I'll make the changes with due credits. On a side note, I did read your posts when I was researching on this topic.

I joined this forum to gain some information and exchange notes. And will request inputs, whatever that members can share, on this and future topics.

Some write-ups that I've done and are available on my blog:

1. Anti-tank missiles in Indian Army
2. Defense Canals in South Punjab and Sindh
3. Strategic importance of South Punjab and Sindh
4. Defense Canals in South Punjab and Sind-2 (Covering Rahim Yar Khan)
5. Artillery Divisions in Indian Army
6. Indian Army canal crossing operations

[/QUOT
Hi don’t take at as a skepticism but have you done any analysis for Chinese army vs IA also
If yes post out a link please otherwise not a bad article from your end
Thank you

 

[rvats]

Not yet. That's work-in-progress. Is there anything specific you want to know?

This is how it goes.

Armoured Div. (Strike Corps): 6 Arm. Regiments in 3 brigades, no MIB.

Mech Div: 5 Arm. Reg + 4 MIB (2+1, 2+1, 1+2)

All 7 Corps facing east have one Ind. Arm. Brigade each, except XXX Corps which has 2 Ind. Arm. Brigades.
XI and XII Corps have no Ind. Arm. Brig.

Ind. Mech. Brigade (one each with V Corps and XXXI Corps) have 1 arm. Reg + 2 MIB

Ind. HAT Brigade (one each with V Corps and XXXI Corps) have no arm. Reg.

Remaining arm. Reg. are assigned to ID's, one armoured reg per Inf. Div. Except ID's / Light ID based in mountainous areas (FCNA, 12 ID, etc).

Thanks. Helps me to put things in perspective.

 

[Signalian]

XI and XII Corps have no Ind. Arm. Brig.

intentional or unintentional ?

 

[Path-Finder]

Pakistan Exports HJ-8 Anti-Tank Missiles to 20 Countries


Pakistan has exported the HJ-8 anti-tank missiles to 20 nations around the globe including Bangladesh, Bolivia, Egypt, Ecuador, Kenya, Malaysia, Morocco, Peru, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Syria, the United Arab Emirates, Uruguay, Venezuela and Zimbabwe. HJ-8 is a second generation tube launched, optically tracked, wire-guided anti-tank missile system produced by Pakistan under license from China.


Pakistan has been able to export 10,000 HJ-8 missiles since the 1980’s when China convinced the Pakistan Army to purchase these missiles instead of using the American-built BGM-71 TOW anti-tank missile.

The powerful HJ-8 series is the Chinese equivalent of the American BGM-71 TOW and Franco-German MILAN / Euromissile HOT anti-tank missiles.

According to Duowei report, US-based Chinese news outlet, Pakistan carried out tests pitting the HJ-8 against the TOW system to choose the best missile for its ground force.

The HJ-8 won the love of all by destroying all five targets with five launches while the TOW only destroyed three targets.

Pakistan has an independent production line to manufacture the HJ-8 anti-tank missile. The growing partnership between Pakistan and China is expected to strengthen both the countries in arms and ammunition technology.




https://www.brandsynario.com/pakistan-exports-hj-8-anti-tank-missiles-to-20-countries/

an outdated system! Hopefully gets retired soon.

 

[sparten]

an outdated system! Hopefully gets retired soon.

Not at all. Its excellent agaoinst pretty much all current Indian threats. T-72's will get blown toi bits. Even the T-90 will struggle. As for BTR/BMP................ bad news man.

 

[Path-Finder]

Not at all. Its excellent agaoinst pretty much all current Indian threats. T-72's will get blown toi bits. Even the T-90 will struggle. As for BTR/BMP................ bad news man.

its heavy and bulky which makes it difficult for infantry to carry. There are lighter systems available now, its better to move towards inducting them.

 

[sparten]

its heavy and bulky which makes it difficult for infantry to carry. There are lighter systems available now, its better to move towards inducting them.

We got rid of foot carrying teams 15 years ago. They were too vulnerable to enemy arty and mortar fire.