Pakistan's Submarine Procurement

[paritosh]

real topic.. yes genius.. wire guided missiles have short range.. just for your information.. wire guided short range missiles are the most effective short range missiles...

I thought it was the heat-seeking missile that is the most accurate.
ans besides isn't your German missile also heat-seeking in it's last stage?

. anything that has greater "range" must be the best thing... or speed.. lol... thats your comprehension level.. and oh not to forget you can comprehend "bow and arrow part very well".. these stuff are made just for you...

seriously...you really can't hit out-of range targets with any missile...believe me.
a wire-guided missile's only advantage is that it can't be jammed.
an infrared missile is the most accurate missile at short ranges...that is exactly why the IDAS has the infra-seeker.A wire-guided missile isboth slow...and less maneuverable and dependent on manual inputs....whether it is guided by a man with a joystick or through a gunner's sight....it is dependent on manual inputs and is not a fire-and-forget missile.

On your face..

I couldn't find a smilie to match yours so you win.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

^^^is this what you are grinning about?
you should have written a few more posts before giving your secret away.

seriously i dont have to remind myself that i am talking to a senseless individual.

This is completely flawed....both theoretically and factually.
why do you find it so convenient to forget the fact that your 20 km super-duper missile is a 20 km super-duper missile...so you can't launch it from the ocean floor...the sub would also have to rise rapidly(in your scenario)thereby making plenty of noise for it to be detected.

again. their goes your thinking process.. are you really 13-14?
do you even know naval subs cant dive no more then 400-500 meters?? type-214 can lie on sea floor at 100-150 meters "shallow" waters and be undetected.. let alone "400-450" meter depth when it will be almost undetectable. but dude.. i dont know from where the hell are you getting all these nonsense.. and why should this sub move so much to fire its weapons? it does not have to surface! and just what kind of noise are you talking about? this is not type-209 its a freaking next generation sub!

Performance of the AIP system has been increased with two Siemens PEM fuel cells which produce 120kW per module and will give the submarine an underwater endurance of two weeks. A hull shape which has been further optimised for hydrodynamic and stealth characteristics and a low-noise propeller combine to decrease the submarine’s acoustic signature.

listen to what he says about AIP system which both type-212 and 214 have in common ..

there is no submarine that has a zero sonar signature....if you've watched some movie that has made you believe this then you should know that it's not so....at least not today.The sub has a metal body...which also makes it sonorous and magnetically detectable.
have you heard of the magnetic anomaly detection (MAD) System?well there is one on-board the P-8I...so even if your sub doesn't make any noise...it's metal body would give it way...read about MAD...

do indians suffer from common syndrome called "self portraying"? delusional? pathological lying?
Type-214 (metal body)? lol... its like saying F-35 has no composite materials..

 

[paritosh]

seriously i dont have to remind myself that i am talking to a senseless individual.

yet you write lenghty posts to home-in your point...who is being a bigger fool?

again. their goes your thinking process.. are you really 13-14?

you wanna get me married or something?how old are you?

why should this sub move so much to fire its weapons?

well because it's weapons have limited range just like all other platforms...now I know you don't like talking about ranges but can't make it more sugary for you if it isn't.

it does not have to surface! and just what kind of noise are you talking about? this is not type-209 its a freaking next generation sub!

wha!!!!?
it dones't have to surface??incorrect.the AIP provides quite a lot of depth time to a sub with the fuel cells...but it still is not a match for a nuke sub...the diesel-electric sub still has to surface to recharge it's batteries.
take the cost of a nuke sub and the type 214 into perspective...the fuel-cell based system if would have allowed the sub to remain submerged for at least as much of a time the nuke sub does...nobody'd buy the nuke sub.can you describe in days..the duration of the depth-time of the type-214?

do indians suffer from common syndrome called "self portraying"? delusional? pathological lying?
Type-214 (metal body)? lol... its like saying F-35 has no composite materials..

no it's not like that...your version doesn't have a non-magnetic hull...I expect such a senior strategist of the PN to be knowing such trivial things.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

yet you write lenghty posts to home-in your point...who is being a bigger fool?

YOU!

wha!!!!?
it dones't have to surface??incorrect.the AIP provides quite a lot of depth time to a sub with the fuel cells...but it still is not a match for a nuke sub...the diesel-electric sub still has to surface to recharge it's batteries.

You have the tendency of jumping out of the context to divert the subject.. listen.. you were merely talking about its incapability to fire weapons lying on the sea bed...
and now you are completely changing the face of the subject... first lets agree to the point that MPA can not locate Type-214 at longer range like 200-500kM... then..... its inboard sensors can detect incoming (MAD) then accordingly blend itself in the environment... the MPA has to circle above and thats when IDAS can be fired at...

take the cost of a nuke sub and the type 214 into perspective...the fuel-cell based system if would have allowed the sub to remain submerged for at least as much of a time the nuke sub does...nobody'd buy the nuke sub.can you describe in days..the duration of the depth-time of the type-214?

whaaaa?? again you are going after range, speed, etc.... do you even know when nuclear sub moves it generates so much noise compared to type-214 thanks to its new AIP solution. put both subs in water at same time same place and give them a distance to cover, i bet you nuclear sub will always be detected first.. Nuclear sub is only good for you when you wanna attack your enemy almost across the globe... when you are fighting your neighbor the nuclear sub is not going to fight its full potential.. infact it will be anything like a conventional sub though with alots of armament..

 

[paritosh]

YOU!

hehe ok...just don't get down and dirty with me.

You have the tendency of jumping out of the context to divert the subject.. listen.. you were merely talking about its incapability to fire weapons lying on the sea bed...

"it does not have to surface!"
well this is what you wrote in your last post...which is totally incorrect.
It's incapacity to fire weapons lying on the seabed???
can the type-214 fire the IDAS from the seabed?

... first lets agree to the point that MPA can not locate Type-214 at longer range like 200-500kM...

ok.

then..... its inboard sensors can detect incoming (MAD) then accordingly blend itself in the environment... the MPA has to circle above and thats when IDAS can be fired at...

you lost me somewhere here...
"accordingly blend itself in the environment"?
and what is that?

whaaaa?? again you are going after range, speed, etc.... do you even know when nuclear sub moves it generates so much noise compared to type-214 thanks to its new AIP solution.

yes...the fuel-cell based AIP makes the sub very stealthy....and the type-214 is one of the stealthiest of the lot....
but what you don't know is that the type-214 still has a diesel engine which runs on the conventional batteries along with the AIP...the type-214 has to surface every two weeks.The fuel-cell based AIP tech has a promising future but right now...the sub is unable to solely run on the fuel-cells...but there is minuscule noise.
and also...when any sub has to rise rapidly the water escaping from it's ballast chambers makes cavitation noise...so when your type-214 would have to kill a P-8I...it would have to rise which would generate noise.

put both subs in water at same time same place and give them a distance to cover, i bet you nuclear sub will always be detected first.. Nuclear sub is only good for you when you wanna attack your enemy almost across the globe... when you are fighting your neighbor the nuclear sub is not going to fight its full potential.. infact it will be anything like a conventional sub though with alots of armament..

no one is mano e manoing the two subs...a diesel electric sub running on batteries is quieter...than a nuke sub.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

lol.... looks like you did not do your homework again...

It's incapacity to fire weapons lying on the seabed???
can the type-214 fire the IDAS from the seabed?

correct... IDAS is worlds first independent missile that is launched directly from the sub even when submerged.... please watch that video about type-212 again and do a little google on IDAS..

the type-214 has to surface every two weeks.The fuel-cell based AIP tech has a promising future but right now...the sub is unable to solely run on the fuel-cells...but there is minuscule noise.
and also...when any sub has to rise rapidly the water escaping from it's ballast chambers makes cavitation noise...so when your type-214 would have to kill a P-8I...it would have to rise which would generate noise.

soo what if it has to surface??? then according to your logic no surface warship can escape P8? thats absolutely wrong!
again... watch that video again.... and what the h%ll do you mean AIP has promising future??? it is the latest modern propulsion solution for conventional subs!! like i have said again and again... Type-212/214 are nothing like average subs.... they dont earn the term "stealthy" for just heck of it... they are quite no matter what..
and no... it does not have to surface to fire IDAS..

 

[paritosh]

correct... IDAS is worlds first independent missile that is launched directly from the sub even when submerged.... please watch that video about type-212 again and do a little google on IDAS..

you have some serious problem in comprehension.
The IDAS can't be launched from the fking seabed can it?
read the line you quoted...and the $hit that you came up with.
and as far as launching missiles being submerged...the IDAS is NOT the first missile to do so...all the nuke-tipped ballistic missiles carried by subs are designed to be fired from a depth...they have double/triple staged motors...I can list at least a dozen other missiles that can be fired when submerged.

soo what if it has to surface???

if it surfaces...there are a hundred known weapons that can kill it with a very high kill probability+it creates convergence zones all around it even though it might have a passive sonar...which can be picked up miles away.
A sub is best when submerged that is why it is a sub!
and that is exactly why you have an AIP on your sub...it imparting a low noise signature is secondary.

then according to your logic no surface warship can escape P8? thats absolutely wrong!

P-8I is equipped with the Harpoon anti-ship missile...about which we skipped talking about.It is a potent ship killer.

and what the h%ll do you mean AIP has promising future??? it is the latest modern propulsion solution for conventional subs!! like i have said again and again... Type-212/214 are nothing like average subs.... they dont earn the term "stealthy" for just heck of it...
and no... it does not have to surface to fire IDAS..

there is no submarine that operates solely on AIP.
when the fuel-cell tech gets more mature...there'd be subs operating just on AIP and would not need conventional batteries that need air to charge-up(because of which the sub surfaces).
a diesel-electric sub of today operating with AIP has to compromise many times on speed and depth and power-generation for the two weeks it remains submerged.There is a problem of power managment...and the allocation of power to different stations has to be rationed....which does not happen in a nuke sub.

they are quite no matter what

no.It's childlike to believe such a thing.it seems you don't know much about the sound leakage factors on a sub...the quietest sub has a rotor...it rotates..bubbles are produced...there is a vacuum in the water as it is stretched around the rotors...this cause cavitation of bubbles...or bursting of bubbles...this is an important noise factor.
the ballast chambers of any sub have pumps and compressed air which work to inject and eject water in the ballast chamber for the sub to rise and fall...while injecting water doesn't produce much noise...ejecting water rapidly(in the case the sub has to rise from a depth to surface) creates a lot of noise...which is one of the biggest evils of any sub...
frankly there is nothing technical in your posts...all you do is praise the german sub without the technical knowledge to back your liking.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

you just love to waist your time and my time with your senseless, and irrelevant posts... so you have committed to say what ever is in your mind rather bring out facts...

The IDAS can't be launched from the fking seabed can it?

seriously your comprehension level is that of a 5 year old girl even she will understand.. u-boats can lie on seafloor as much as 300-400 meters... tell me why will it have to surface to fire weapons?

read the line you quoted...and the $hit that you came up with.
and as far as launching missiles being submerged...the IDAS is NOT the first missile to do so...all the nuke-tipped ballistic missiles carried by subs are designed to be fired from a depth...they have double/triple staged motors...I can list at least a dozen other missiles that can be fired when submerged.

you clearly lack comprehension capability! i was merely talking about its unique ability to fire straight from the sub without any boosters, capsules, or any other additional parts... good that you can list at least a dozen other missiles that can be fired when submerged from "WIKIPEDIA"..

if it surfaces...there are a hundred known weapons that can kill it with a very high kill probability+it creates convergence zones all around it even though it might have a passive sonar...which can be picked up miles away.
A sub is best when submerged that is why it is a sub!
and that is exactly why you have an AIP on your sub...it imparting a low noise signature is secondary.
P-8I is equipped with the Harpoon anti-ship missile...about which we skipped talking about.It is a potent ship killer.
there is no submarine that operates solely on AIP.
when the fuel-cell tech gets more mature...there'd be subs operating just on AIP and would not need conventional batteries that need air to charge-up(because of which the sub surfaces).
a diesel-electric sub of today operating with AIP has to compromise many times on speed and depth and power-generation for the two weeks it remains submerged.There is a problem of power managment...and the allocation of power to different stations has to be rationed....which does not happen in a nuke sub.
no.It's childlike to believe such a thing.it seems you don't know much about the sound leakage factors on a sub...the quietest sub has a rotor...it rotates..bubbles are produced...there is a vacuum in the water as it is stretched around the rotors...this cause cavitation of bubbles...or bursting of bubbles...this is an important noise factor.
the ballast chambers of any sub have pumps and compressed air which work to inject and eject water in the ballast chamber for the sub to rise and fall...while injecting water doesn't produce much noise...ejecting water rapidly(in the case the sub has to rise from a depth to surface) creates a lot of noise...which is one of the biggest evils of any sub...
frankly there is nothing technical in your posts...all you do is praise the german sub without the technical knowledge to back your liking.

just not worthy the reply... all rubbish... you clearly do not understand any significance difference between u-209 and a stealthy Type-214... if type-214 is so easy to be picked despite being the most stealthy sub and smallest then imagine how easy it would be to pick and destroy a nuclear sub from a MPA..
btw.. for your limited information.. harpoon can not hit fully awaken modern subs... by the time its on mid course subs sensors will pick it up and submerge..

 

[Righteous_Fire]

^ Nice reply Growler ma man!

 

[Nutuk]

A quick update on the Pakistani submarine acquisition delay as much as I know about.
The delay in the negotiations seems to be mainly caused by financial issues. Purchase of 3 U-124 costs around 1.2 billion Euros. Pakistan wants the payment with a longtime credit of 20 years while the German counterpart insist on payment in a 5 years time period. HDW is looking for alternative options and may propose the U-214 (Papanikolis) initially build for Greece but rejected by Greece in a reduced price offer.

 

[paritosh]

seriously your comprehension level is that of a 5 year old girl even she will understand..

you crack me up.

u-boats can lie on seafloor as much as 300-400 meters... tell me why will it have to surface to fire weapons

let me again rephrase it for you...
can the IDAS be fired from the seabed?

>>it can fire weapons from the seafloor(300-400ms)...
yes.
>>what weapons can it fire from the seafloor?
>>torpedos and not ballistic missiles and cruise missiles and the IDAS.
I quote:-
"After updating the missile´s inertial system by the submarine's navigation system, the missile was ejected from the torpedo tube. Under water it spread its wings and rudders and started its engine to break through the water surface a few seconds later, ascending to a pre-planned altitude to move into a controlled flight stage,"
- from Ares Homepage
now you see...like any other vertically launched missile through a cold-launch...the IDAS missile has two stages of it's total flight path...
a)it has an engine that powers it's submerged ascent to the water surface
b)it's boosters or the rocket motor...which switches on once the missile is airborne and takes it to it's destined target in a 20km range

from a depth of 300-400 meters...it can't be launched.It's first stage would expend it's fuel without breaching the surface and the missiel will be what we call 'spent'.So that is why it has to rise up to be able to fire the IDAS...

you clearly lack comprehension capability! i was merely talking about its unique ability to fire straight from the sub without any boosters, capsules, or any other additional parts...

and hence it's short range...which is solely dependent on it's own motor.

just not worthy the reply... all rubbish... you clearly do not understand any significance difference between u-209 and a stealthy Type-214... if type-214 is so easy to be picked despite being the most stealthy sub and smallest then imagine how easy it would be to pick and destroy a nuclear sub from a MPA..
btw.. for your limited information.. harpoon can not hit fully awaken modern subs... by the time its on mid course subs sensors will pick it up and submerge..

harpoon is used against ships that can't dive.
and as far as the stealthy type-214 is concerned...Pakistan is getting the export version...without the non-magnetic hull which makes it prone to detection through MAD...which is aboard the P-8I....the German's would have the most stealthy sub not you.
your attempts to make up for your lack of technical know-how with sarcasm are amusing at best.

 

[Nutuk]

Pakistan is getting the export version...without the non-magnetic hull which makes it prone to detection through MAD...which is aboard the P-8I

U-214 is basically a U209 with AIP. The non-magnetic hull has pro's and con's.

Pro: Non-magnetic hull doesn't need extra installations like a degaussing system

Con: The Germans use the non-magnetic hull because the North sea where they use them is not so deep. The steel for non-magnetic hull is weaker thus the U-212 submarine cannot dive to the depths of 400m like the U-214.

Turkey is going to install a degaussing system on her U-214's to deal with the magnitization of the hull.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

paritosh

you are not worthy a reply.. you talk to much nonsense that you cook at night in your bed for which i certainly dont have time to reply..

Nutuk plez share some info regarding possible sale of Papanikolis to pakistan..

 

[Haanzo]

the only ignorant fool making fun of own self is you and your indian buddy.. who thinks type-214 can be detected from 500km by MPA and get destroyed at 300km range!
when Type-214 is just lying on the sea bed the only way to find this baby is to circle above and once in the range of 20KM any MPA will be history! however.. i can not say this about agosta-90b.....

you seriosly need to understand my posts firrst then try answering them k

 

[Myth_buster_1]

you seriosly need to understand my posts firrst then try answering them k

i dont like to waist time with BSters..
go back to dead forum bharat raksak.... their you guys can play general general and make fun of pakistan as much you want...