Pakistan's Submarine Procurement

[monitor]

try to be realistic. firstly germans are not willing to sell us . 2nd even if they are selling us, Do you know the price tag of U214.. its not possible for us to buy 7 of them at once. because for only 3 i heard the main problem is that we want the deal to be on 10 years defered payments while germans don't agree. Chinese sub can be good because we can have our requirements full filled with upgrades as is the case with J10. and the price is also less and we can buy them because of loan facility that we can get from chinese. try to be realistic.

if money is the main obstacle than pakistan can seek help from saudi arabia for loan i think as its very urgent to replace or reinforce your aging submarin fleet soon .

and the price is around 500mill dollar so you need 3.5billion dollar
to get that beast.

 

[Super Falcon]

The Type 039 / Song Class attack submarine was built by Wuhan Shipyard (Wuchang Shipyard) for the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) of China. It was the first indigenously built submarine of China. The class is preceded by Type 035 (Ming Class) and succeeded by Type 041 (Yuan Class) submarines.

The Type 039 was introduced to replace the Romeo / Ming Class submarines. The keel of the first submarine of the class, No. 320, was laid down in 1991. It was launched in May 1994 but was not commissioned until June 1999 due to design and performance problems.

Following extensive redesign work, a new modified version known as Type 039G was introduced. The new design reduced the acoustic signature and enhanced the underwater performance of the submarine.

The first Type 039G sub, No. 321, was launched in November 1999 and commissioned in April 2001.

The second of the class, No.322, was commissioned in December 2001, while the third submarine, No. 323, entered service in November 2003.

The construction on another new version, Type 039G1, commenced at Wuchang Shipyard and Jiangnan Shipyard in 2004. A series of 12 submarines were built at the two shipyards.

Type 039 design

"The submarine incorporates Chinese and Western technologies."The design features a low-drag hydrodynamically profiled hull and sail. Type 039 was the first submarine to use a teardrop hull design. The body is water-drop shaped and the hull is covered with rubber tiles to absorb the sound waves of sonar. The class is equipped with a seven-blade propeller and an engine fitted with a shock-absorbing base. The submarine incorporates Chinese and Western technologies.

Type 039 has a length of 75m, a beam of 8.4m and a draught of 5.3m. The submerged displacement of the boat is 2,250t. The submarine has 12kt - 15kt surfaced and 22kt dived speed. It can complement 60 crew members. The submarine is primarily designed for anti-submarine and anti-surface warfare. It can also perform the missions of reconnaissance, mine laying and patrolling.

Submarine command and control

The Song Class is equipped with a multi-role combat and command system. It is an upgraded version of the combat and command system used in the Ming Class submarines. The data provided by the system is used to control the submarine, and firing of torpedoes and missiles.

Song Class torpedoes

The Song Class submarine is fitted with six 533mm bow torpedo tubes for torpedoes and anti-ship missiles. These tubes can launch Yu-3 acoustic-homing anti-submarine torpedoes and Yu-4 passive acoustic-homing anti-ship torpedoes. Yu-4 has a speed of 30kt and a range of 6km. The submarine can also carry 24 to 36 tube-launched naval mines in place of torpedoes.

Submarine missiles

Type 039 is also armed with YJ-8 anti-ship cruise missiles launched from the torpedo tubes. The YJ-8 travels at a speed of Mach 0.9, and can strike the surface vessels within the range of 80km. It carries a 165kg warhead.

Submarine countermeasures

The submarine is fitted with SRW209 electronic warfare suite comprising electronic support measures, a radar warning receiver and a radio direction finder. The system is fully automatic and manually operated. It operates on S - Ku bands and can be linked with the combat data system.

Type 039 sensors / radars

The underwater sensor suite consists of a medium-frequency active / passive bow array, a passive interception and ranging array and two passive flank arrays.

"Type 039 is equipped with a diesel-electric propulsion system."The bow-mounted sonar can track 4-12 targets simultaneously, while flank-mounted low-frequency tracks four targets simultaneously to a maximum range of 30km.

The sonar array also performs underwater communication and torpedo approach warning functions. An I-band radar is also fitted for surface search missions.

Diesel-electric propulsion system

The Type 039 submarine is equipped with a diesel-electric propulsion system. Three German MTU 16V396SE84 diesel engines drive the large asymmetrical seven-bladed skewed propeller through a single shaft. The submarine is equipped with four alternators and an electric motor

 

[Super Falcon]

why not buy song class which is equal match of french scorpene. as we all know few years back in exercise with USA song class sub almost hit the USN kitty hawk carrier if it was a war

 

[TaimiKhan]

Well here is a fresh and new info by H Khan at Pakdef, its very surprising as well as refreshing, if true, it means PN guys are really using very hard their brains and have come up with a very good alternative, which would be cheap, good quality as well as we can have numbers too:

"While having a conversation with the President of a naval institution here in the good'ol US of A, this person informed me that Pakistan Navy is planning to procure and build four French Andrasta-Class SSK plus three U-214 from Germany.

I questioned him about of Andrasta being small and without AIP he stated that DCNS has assured that Andrasta can be customized to PN specification which includes AIP. He claims that PN has studied throughly the sub operations along with Indian coastal areas from Sir Greek to Bombay and found that they need a smaller SSK rather than bigger one like Agosta-90B, Scorpene or U-214. He said at some places the depth is less than 48m or 160 feet and these bigger subs are sitting ducks because of their size. He also mentioned that Andrasta's capability to choke mouth of Persia Gulf and deny India its oil. "

Andrasta SSK is said to have a range of 3000 nautical miles, meaning it can easily go till Sri Lanka and Back, even farther also.

This would be a very good strategy, combination of big and small submarines working together.

Procuring cost would be low, operational costs would be low, will have more number of subs, thus more hunters on the loose covering more area and more chances of harassing the enemy.

Good thinking by PN.

http://www.dcnsgroup.com/files/pdf/Andrasta.pdf

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/andrasta-submarine/

 

[MZUBAIR]

Well here is a fresh and new info by H Khan at Pakdef, its very surprising as well as refreshing, if true, it means PN guys are really using very hard their brains and have come up with a very good alternative, which would be cheap, good quality as well as we can have numbers too:

"While having a conversation with the President of a naval institution here in the good'ol US of A, this person informed me that Pakistan Navy is planning to procure and build four French Andrasta-Class SSK plus three U-214 from Germany.

I questioned him about of Andrasta being small and without AIP he stated that DCNS has assured that Andrasta can be customized to PN specification which includes AIP. He claims that PN has studied throughly the sub operations along with Indian coastal areas from Sir Greek to Bombay and found that they need a smaller SSK rather than bigger one like Agosta-90B, Scorpene or U-214. He said at some places the depth is less than 48m or 160 feet and these bigger subs are sitting ducks because of their size. He also mentioned that Andrasta's capability to choke mouth of Persia Gulf and deny India its oil. "

Andrasta SSK is said to have a range of 3000 nautical miles, meaning it can easily go till Sri Lanka and Back, even farther also.

This would be a very good strategy, combination of big and small submarines working together.

Procuring cost would be low, operational costs would be low, will have more number of subs, thus more hunters on the loose covering more area and more chances of harassing the enemy.

Good thinking by PN.

http://www.dcnsgroup.com/files/pdf/Andrasta.pdf

Andrasta Coastal Submarine for Littoral Operations - Naval Technology

Yes, but execution is important as well..........
Good newz is that U-214 deal is not completely dead.

 

[MZUBAIR]

if money is the main obstacle than pakistan can seek help from saudi arabia for loan i think as its very urgent to replace or reinforce your aging submarin fleet soon .

and the price is around 500mill dollar so you need 3.5billion dollar
to get that beast.

money is not that prob.............there might be more issues..
We already have 2-3 Billion $ reserved for SUB procuremetns

 

[SEAL]

I think PN is going ahead with Andrasta class submarine in official video they've shown Karachi ship yard (Pakistan) as worldwide partners. Andrasta can fire land attack cruise missiles as well.
.


You can watch video here..

DCNS | Andrasta

 

[MZUBAIR]

I think PN is going ahead with Andrasta class submarine in official video they've shown Karachi ship yard (Pakistan) as worldwide partners. Andrasta can fire land attack cruise missiles as well.
.


You can watch video here..

DCNS | Andrasta

Andrasta is designed on Scorpio needs 4 to 5 years to come out. It is designed for anti-submarine and anti-surface warfare, as well as intelligence gathering and special operations

We cant wait 4 to 5 years.......we need few subs within 2 to 3 years

 

[Tomahawk]

I think PN is going ahead with Andrasta class submarine in official video they've shown Karachi ship yard (Pakistan) as worldwide partners. Andrasta can fire land attack cruise missiles as well.
.


You can watch video here..

DCNS | Andrasta

The Andrasta is equipped with the DCNS SUBTICS submarine tactical integrated combat system. SUBTICS systems are in operation aboard Scorpene submarines of the Chilean Navy and Agosta 90B submarines for the Pakistan Navy.

Andrasta is a costal submarine; it won't serve any purpose for PN.
Just have a look on it's specifications.

Key Data:
Complement19 crew, plus 2 passengers and 6 divers

Dimensions:Overall Length 48.8m
Surfaced Displacement 855t

Performance:
Diving DepthOver 200m
Maximum Submerged Speed Over 15kt
High-Speed Autonomy 3 hours
Submerged Endurance Up to 5 days
Transit Range Over 3,000nm
Typical Mission Duration 15 days

Andrasta Coastal Submarine for Littoral Operations - Naval Technology

 

[Nav]

I think PN is going ahead with Andrasta class submarine in official video they've shown Karachi ship yard (Pakistan) as worldwide partners. Andrasta can fire land attack cruise missiles as well.
.


You can watch video here..

DCNS | Andrasta

andresta can just fire sm-39 missile and torpedo's .. U-214 or may be a joint venture btween pak, china and Turkey wil be handful

 

[pak-yes]

Wooo its very good to hear that U214 deal is still alive.

 

[farhan_9909]

Well here is a fresh and new info by H Khan at Pakdef, its very surprising as well as refreshing, if true, it means PN guys are really using very hard their brains and have come up with a very good alternative, which would be cheap, good quality as well as we can have numbers too:

"While having a conversation with the President of a naval institution here in the good'ol US of A, this person informed me that Pakistan Navy is planning to procure and build four French Andrasta-Class SSK plus three U-214 from Germany.

I questioned him about of Andrasta being small and without AIP he stated that DCNS has assured that Andrasta can be customized to PN specification which includes AIP. He claims that PN has studied throughly the sub operations along with Indian coastal areas from Sir Greek to Bombay and found that they need a smaller SSK rather than bigger one like Agosta-90B, Scorpene or U-214. He said at some places the depth is less than 48m or 160 feet and these bigger subs are sitting ducks because of their size. He also mentioned that Andrasta's capability to choke mouth of Persia Gulf and deny India its oil. "

Andrasta SSK is said to have a range of 3000 nautical miles, meaning it can easily go till Sri Lanka and Back, even farther also.

This would be a very good strategy, combination of big and small submarines working together.

Procuring cost would be low, operational costs would be low, will have more number of subs, thus more hunters on the loose covering more area and more chances of harassing the enemy.

Good thinking by PN.

http://www.dcnsgroup.com/files/pdf/Andrasta.pdf

Andrasta Coastal Submarine for Littoral Operations - Naval Technology

Great news

bt we hav to buy chineese sub instead of french

 

[TaimiKhan]

The Andrasta is equipped with the DCNS SUBTICS submarine tactical integrated combat system. SUBTICS systems are in operation aboard Scorpene submarines of the Chilean Navy and Agosta 90B submarines for the Pakistan Navy.

Andrasta is a costal submarine; it won't serve any purpose for PN.
Just have a look on it's specifications.

Key Data:
Complement19 crew, plus 2 passengers and 6 divers

Dimensions:Overall Length 48.8m
Surfaced Displacement 855t

Performance:
Diving DepthOver 200m
Maximum Submerged Speed Over 15kt
High-Speed Autonomy 3 hours
Submerged Endurance Up to 5 days
Transit Range Over 3,000nm
Typical Mission Duration 15 days

Andrasta Coastal Submarine for Littoral Operations - Naval Technology

It will be a very good option for PN.

As said, a Sub fleet comprising of big and small both sizes.

Out main area of defence and operations is the sea lanes coming from the Gulf states and towards the Indian sea ports from where their naval ships operate and for them to have a successful blockade, they need to encircle our sea ports, with 3000NM range, thus sub can go very far into the ocean and can hunt for the enemy with ease.

We are not a blue water navy or ambitions to have subs who can go to far flung corners of the earth, we need subs to defend our sea lanes and ports.

This sub would be small, hard to detect and can work in littoral waters, where the big subs are at risk, so by working perfectly in littoral waters it can lurk near the enemy sea ports or naval bases and attack the ships, and with smaller size, harder to detect.

I think we should go with them, we should get big ones too, so small ones working with big ones would be one hell of a sub fleet and we can keep the enemy at bay and would not be able to threaten us.

As said, with 3000NM range, it can very well go to Sri Lanka and then be back, if you see the map of the ocean, it is a huge space and we can have more of them in the same budget of big ones, thus more of them at sea hunting and more area would be covered.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Great news

bt we hav to buy chineese sub instead of french

Chinese are big subs and so far are not that much advanced as the French or German ones.

What we can do is go for 3 U-214s, 4 of these for now with ToT to the extend possible, and by then the Agosta-90Bs would be pretty old too, so for their replacement we can see to the Chinese subs as hopefully by end of the decade, their tech would be much advanced and they would be able to give us the best they can offer.

We need a 10-15 sub fleet by the end of this decade if we have to properly defend our sea shores and with the budget we have, that we can't have 10-15 big subs, but these smaller, lethal ones can do the job for us perfectly.

 

[sancho]

Wooo its very good to hear that U214 deal is still alive.

The deal is still alive and it might be less the German side that delays it, some weeks ago I read in a German news that the security council of German Gov already cleared the sale of these subs to PN. As I said last november, this new Gov. will always help companies and only thinks about money making.
The only problems for this deal are a possible sale to IN, or if there would be major critics of the opposition parties in the parliament, but with the financial and EURO crisis, they have more than enough other problems.

So what else could delay this deal? Fundings? ToT? Fear of secure technology?